Keirsey's soulmates: ENFJ/INTP

[Magic Poriferan]

I love you to pieces, Jock, me lad, but this statement really frustrates me. That's been my experience with INTPs and for a while it lead me to believe that they were completely incapable of being selective or self-determining. They just took what they were handed and called it "being in love", even when the match was clearly bad or destructive.

I had several throw-downs with my ex about it. I told him if I'd never asked him out, he'd still be with whoever approached him first, something that really bothered me.

Can you explain why this is? I swear I'm not being a jerk. I really want to know.

Also, your robot noggin is very smooth and shiny. Carnuba wax?

For me, my explanation is that it simply isn't true. I prefer to take things that come to me, but I'm very picky, and don't take anything that comes my way. The part I bolded would not apply to me. I have actually had people express interest in me before (may be surprising) but I've politely declined them. They weren't what I wanted.

As for why I don't make advances. I think I'm extremely bad at it. And doing it makes me feel more vulnerable.

 

[MacGuffin]

I love you to pieces, Jock, me lad, but this statement really frustrates me. That's been my experience with INTPs and for a while it lead me to believe that they were completely incapable of being selective or self-determining. They just took what they were handed and called it "being in love", even when the match was clearly bad or destructive.

I had several throw-downs with my ex about it. I told him if I'd never asked him out, he'd still be with whoever approached him first, something that really bothered me.

Can you explain why this is? I swear I'm not being a jerk. I really want to know.

Also, your robot noggin is very smooth and shiny. Carnuba wax?

This may not apply to all INTPs: I can be pretty passive and self-doubting. So when a woman expresses an interest... hot damn!

 

[Domino]

But why would you think that, Mac? You have more confidence than most men I've met, much less per type. What would cause an intelligent attractive person to doubt their capacities? Is that learned or endemic?

 

[MacGuffin]

But why would you think that, Mac? You have more confidence than most men I've met, much less per type. What would cause an intelligent attractive person to doubt their capacities? Is that learned or endemic?

It is learned.

Only later does one realize that most other people are even more shallow and insecure than you are.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I love you to pieces, Jock, me lad, but this statement really frustrates me. That's been my experience with INTPs and for a while it lead me to believe that they were completely incapable of being selective or self-determining. They just took what they were handed and called it "being in love", even when the match was clearly bad or destructive.

I had several throw-downs with my ex about it. I told him if I'd never asked him out, he'd still be with whoever approached him first, something that really bothered me.

Can you explain why this is? I swear I'm not being a jerk. I really want to know.

Also, your robot noggin is very smooth and shiny. Carnuba wax?

Well, and all of this is only for me, can't speak for any other INTPs; for myself I'm really never sure if the attention I'm getting has romantic intent or if they're just being really friendly. Unless you just come out and say "I'm interested! You know, in that way," I'm just going to assume you aren't. I think part of it might have to do with rejection. I don't want relationships to change very much, so if I have feelings for a friend or someone I see a lot, I'm terrified of being responsible for screwing it all up. Because I'm pretty sure that I will, and the mental "what did she mean by this sentence/action/look/joke" analysis just paralyzes any kind of decision making. I never take chances with people, because I understand them as a system so very little, and I'm afraid of being wrong and messing it all up

Also, your observation "They just took what they were handed and called it "being in love", even when the match was clearly bad or destructive," rings very true for me. Even in my relationship now, I take what I'm given and work with what I can. I never bring up things that make me unhappy, or worry me, or maybe talk about something I'd like to be improved, because they are my feelings and I don't think I can back them up, or rationalize them in any kind of argument. I have trouble making a stand when I do not think I can defend myself, and when I air out my grievances, worries, or feelings, I feel defenseless. Also, I'm afraid that me bringing anything like that up, will change the relationship for the worse, so I stay bottled in. Funny this whole thread got brought up too, because I just realized I wasn't as happy as I used to be in my relationship about a week ago . That's what I get for not taking my "emotional temperature" very often. Sometimes you just wake up and one day you wonder how the hell you got to where you are.

And as for my noggin, I did just get detailed! Part of my yearly maintenence plan

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Well, and all of this is only for me, can't speak for any other INTPs; for myself I'm really never sure if the attention I'm getting has romantic intent or if they're just being really friendly. Unless you just come out and say "I'm interested! You know, in that way," I'm just going to assume you aren't. I think part of it might have to do with rejection. I don't want relationships to change very much, so if I have feelings for a friend or someone I see a lot, I'm terrified of being responsible for screwing it all up. Because I'm pretty sure that I will, and the mental "what did she mean by this sentence/action/look/joke" analysis just paralyzes any kind of decision making. I never take chances with people, because I understand them as a system so very little, and I'm afraid of being wrong and messing it all up

This is also essentially true for me.

 

[kelric]

But why would you think that, Mac? You have more confidence than most men I've met, much less per type. What would cause an intelligent attractive person to doubt their capacities? Is that learned or endemic?

It is learned.

Only later does one realize that most other people are even more shallow and insecure than you are.

I'm probably not coming from exactly the same perspective that Mac is, but I'd agree that for me such things are, at least primarily, learned. Confidence is categorical - being confident in many things or even in general doesn't equate to confidence in all things - and in my case most things relating to people-issues are a known weak spot. Give me a problem to solve, or a task to accomplish, or a skillset to learn and I'm confident that I can do it (follow-through, on the other hand, can sometimes be hit-or-miss ).

But at those things that I'm not good at, confidence is oftentimes difficult to muster - I want to sit back and learn more to build confidence before acting - I know that I'm not good at "reading signals", and want to be as sure as I can. I know that I'm operating with insufficient data (much less than most others would expect me to have), and generally believe that unless it's clear someone *is* interested, that they'd consider themselves *obviously* not interested. And failures in the past tend to drive me to want to be *more* certain in the future.

It's not that I *won't* act... but that in the absence of fairly obvious positive signs ("hey, I like you - yeah, like *that*") the "learning more" phase can take long enough that opportunities can fade. *shrug* And usually those "fairly obvious signs" are someone else taking that first step. But it's not a "taking what I can get" sort of thing - not at all.

Well, and all of this is only for me, can't speak for any other INTPs; for myself I'm really never sure if the attention I'm getting has romantic intent or if they're just being really friendly. Unless you just come out and say "I'm interested! You know, in that way," I'm just going to assume you aren't. I think part of it might have to do with rejection. I don't want relationships to change very much, so if I have feelings for a friend or someone I see a lot, I'm terrified of being responsible for screwing it all up. Because I'm pretty sure that I will, and the mental "what did she mean by this sentence/action/look/joke" analysis just paralyzes any kind of decision making. I never take chances with people, because I understand them as a system so very little, and I'm afraid of being wrong and messing it all up

...

I have trouble making a stand when I do not think I can defend myself, and when I air out my grievances, worries, or feelings, I feel defenseless. Also, I'm afraid that me bringing anything like that up, will change the relationship for the worse, so I stay bottled in.

Yeah, that too.

 

[violet_crown]

I think that two people using feeling in the same way (eg, Fi-Fi or Fe-Fe) is the most important. I just seem to be able to connect more deeply with other Fi-users, whereas Fe-type crowd theres always more miscommunications and shenanigans.

 

[Domino]

Jock, don't be afraid to tell your girl what you need. You two have been together for a long time and I'm sure she loves you very much, so if you make a respectful case for what you need/want, why would she not listen? I would want to know if you were unhappy.

Or is it merely the specter of what might happen, like "awful-izing" - that prevents you from speaking up?

Thank you all for your responses. Very insightful to say the least, and sympathetic.

 

[Spartacuss]

I don't think this is a fair statement. You haven't met an INTP that's as emotionally available as you would like them to be, but admittedly, you have high emotional availability standards. Everyone has their own level of comfort with sharing emotions or needing to get them out. Just because an INTP doesn't need to vent all the time doesn't mean he doesn't trust you, or that he isn't capable of being your emotional rock.

You can't really say that someone's not ready for a relationship if you're just judging them by the standards you personally have for a relationship. All you can say, really, is that they're not a good candidate for a relationship with you, which is fine.

+1.
Admittedly, high energy "exergonic" people (and extroverts generally) are totally not my speed, and I don't imagine they would find me sufficiently emotionally available for them.
Just because someone is incompatible with you doesn't mean there's something wrong with them such that you need to "teach" them how to navigate the emotional waters. And the most emotionally immature persons I've known were two very expressive ENFs who would just scorch you with their uncontrolled, manipulative (to me) and highly selfish emotional expressiveness. They probably see that as something desirable. I do not. Nor do I want to be taught to be that way.

I've never dated a male ENFJ, so I have no idea how INTP/ENFJ would play out in a relationship. I do have several female ENFJ friends, and as far as I can tell, I'm the one they call when they do need to vent without being judged.

Yep. None of my friends are INTP, yet I'm the one they come crying to for advice.

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

For me, my explanation is that it simply isn't true. I prefer to take things that come to me, but I'm very picky, and don't take anything that comes my way. The part I bolded would not apply to me. I have actually had people express interest in me before (may be surprising) but I've politely declined them. They weren't what I wanted.

That's about it. I'm, er, turning out to be a bit of a jerk on the soft rejection conveyor belt. It takes something remarkable to get my attention, then something even more special to make me actively interested.

My last partner -- INFJ -- often confronted me with the same argument. I tried to explain it to her, but that just seemed to annoy her further.

What you may be missing here is how incisive and particular the INTP mind tends to be. Anything I do like, I choose very very carefully. Something that kept bewildering her was the quality of my friends. You'd think she would have made some connection there, but I guess not.

 

[proteanmix]

Hi Spartacuss

+1.
Admittedly, high energy "exergonic" people (and extroverts generally) are totally not my speed, and I don't imagine they would find me sufficiently emotionally available for them.

What do you consider emotionally available? I gave an example as a response to this post from Tallulah. What do you think about that? I'm curious to know if we're on the same page. To summarize my definition, it's basically willingness/openness/comfortableness to moving beyond basic getting to know you questions and into meatier stuff. We're no longer talking about politics, or why you like this film or musical artist, or other impersonal topics. After a mutually reasonable amount of time has passed for two people who want to see if they're romantically compatible.

I've already mentioned that I'm over prying people open, it used to be an egotrip thing for me but now I'm just meh about it. Same goes with the initiating, I'm very comfortable in the initiator role but it's just like you get tired of always being the one to cast your line out first. Like I said, it's not easy to put yourself out there for most people and that includes me. I fear rejection just as much as anyone else, but it's something stronger than that fear motivating me to try. When people that let that fear rule them, their attractiveness just diminishes in my eyes. The trying is so important to me.

OK, the lack of trying just sets off all types of possible indicators in my head. One that I've recently discovered is that I wonder how much of a fighting spirit that person has, how determined they are, how easily dissuaded they are. I extrapolate--and I totally admit this may be incorrect--that if a person consistently flees the role of initiator then these are qualities they lack. I can't make myself be attracted to a person like this, not that this is an INTP thing but it's been mentioned several times in this thread and generally around the forum.

Just because someone is incompatible with you doesn't mean there's something wrong with them such that you need to "teach" them how to navigate the emotional waters.

Agreed.

And the most emotionally immature persons I've known were two very expressive ENFs who would just scorch you with their uncontrolled, manipulative (to me) and highly selfish emotional expressiveness. They probably see that as something desirable. I do not. Nor do I want to be taught to be that way.

That's cool as well.

 

[Spartacuss]

Hi Spartacuss

What do you consider emotionally available? I gave an example as a response to this post from Tallulah. What do you think about that? I'm curious to know if we're on the same page. To summarize my definition, it's basically willingness/openness/comfortableness to moving beyond basic getting to know you questions and into meatier stuff. We're no longer talking about politics, or why you like this film or musical artist, or other impersonal topics. After a mutually reasonable amount of time has passed for two people who want to see if they're romantically compatible.
I've already mentioned that I'm over prying people open, it used to be an egotrip thing for me but now I'm just meh about it. Same goes with the initiating, I'm very comfortable in the initiator role but it's just like you get tired of always being the one to cast your line out first. Like I said, it's not easy to put yourself out there for most people and that includes me. I fear rejection just as much as anyone else, but it's something stronger than that fear motivating me to try. When people that let that fear rule them, their attractiveness just diminishes in my eyes. The trying is so important to me.

no doubt. The difference may lie in what they see as a reasonable amount of time. I have had the rather unpleasant experience of being ambushed (and I do not use this word lightly) by extroverted feelers who both gave and expected too much too soon. And while my comparatively cold reaction may have led them to think I'm emotionally unavailable, that is not the case. It's just the pace and level were... i think the word "inorganic" might fit. I've had the same experience with non-romantic settings as well. Maybe it's that some of us take more time to feel out the other person to know if we want to go there, but that willingness to dive deeper is not absent, it's just very selectively given. And it's not necessarily a fear of rejection that's at the root of it. It's just doesn't feel right yet. When it does, I don't need steering to navigate the waters. But it probably won't if it's a teacher-student set-up.


Personally, when I do decide i'm interested in finding out more, there is no lack of willingness to "try" as you put it - or initiate more searching discussions.

I believe you, 3/4 of my INTP friends are females which does make the dynamic quite different if you ask me.

Hmm ... good point.

 

[Tallulah]

Hmm, I have that thing about never knowing if someone's being friendly or being interested, as well. I always default to "friendly." I never assume they're interested. I'm getting better at reading signals, but yeah, confidence in that area comes and goes.

 

[Domino]

If it's any consolation, unless the guy metaphorically has his hand up my shirt, I default instantly to "just interested" not "in love/like with me". I always assumed it was just my own natural kneejerk suspicion of intention.

I'm going to assume we're friends until something is said otherwise. Insist on dancing around the edge and being coy, and you won't be getting any attention from me. I hate it when I get treated like a friend all the while easily detecting prompts meant to make ME say something more-than-friendly first. No thanks.

 

[Littlelostnf]

If it's any consolation, unless the guy metaphorically has his hand up my shirt, I default instantly to "just interested" not "in love/like with me". I always assumed it was just my own natural kneejerk suspicion of intention.

I'm going to assume we're friends until something is said otherwise. Insist on dancing around the edge and being coy, and you won't be getting any attention from me. I hate it when I get treated like a friend all the while easily detecting prompts meant to make ME say something more-than-friendly first. No thanks.

Get the heck up outta my head. Exactly as above (me). The guy really does have to make the first move I assume nothing.

 

[OrangeAppled]

From personal experience, I don't understand the NTJ and NFP match-up. I could see it working with an ENFP and INTJ, but as an INFP who has casually dated a few INTJs, I just don't see the appeal. I felt like these guys could never understand who I am at the core; maybe since an ENFP has a more open temper, it would work better. I don't know any ENTJs, so I don't know if it would be the same way...

 

[FlamingMask]

I think INTP/ENFJ works because each person brings a completely different perspective but frames it in the same context. And both share some odd characteristics, but for different reasons.

By the way, why is it that of every "soulmates thread" I've seen, almost all of them are INTP/ENFJ? I've seen INTJ/ENFP, INTP/ENTJ, and a few others, but this pairing appears to be the most prominent.

If it's any consolation, unless the guy metaphorically has his hand up my shirt, I default instantly to "just interested" not "in love/like with me". I always assumed it was just my own natural kneejerk suspicion of intention.

I'm going to assume we're friends until something is said otherwise. Insist on dancing around the edge and being coy, and you won't be getting any attention from me. I hate it when I get treated like a friend all the while easily detecting prompts meant to make ME say something more-than-friendly first. No thanks.

That's funny because it's that way with most INTPs also. So it's good to be up front. And I appreciate that.

 

[Valuable_Money]

I FEEL VERY STUPID FOR MAKING THIS POST IGNORE IT.

 

[Thursday]

Hey guys, mabye we could put an end to the 30+ page discussion on how ENFJ/INTP pairings are SOOOO AWSOME?
Mabye we could talk about some other pairings? mabye?

that is not the purpose of the thread
we could evolve and consider the NFJ + NTP tandem