Keirsey's soulmates: ENFJ/INTP

[Domino]

Assigning emotions is a great debate strategy.

Like eyerolling? Agreed!

Under what authority? Is there some central governing body that legislates the definitions of words?

I'm in tight with the OED. SHHH!!

Definitions are not created to make people feel good, they're arrived at as a natural part of communication. Their purpose it to facilitate the transmission of an idea, nothing more.

Lateralus, you just defined "definition".

I love it.

 

[Lateralus]

Lateralus, you just defined "definition".

I love it.

Actually, I explained its origin and purpose, which isn't the same as a defining.

 

[MacGuffin]

When INTP's find someone to share their lives with who truly gets them. It's amazing how much they want their partner to truly understand them...and that my friend is not easy for everyone to do. It's not explicit demands they are implicit.

Okay, yeah you are quite right. We do place a very high expectation on our mate to "understand" us. I've had to learn this lesson very hard. I don't expect to have to explain things out, but no one is a mindreader.

Still, you like that? That "floats your boat"?

What else is an extreme demand by the INTP?

Explain.

Detached observer, in ideology. I stand four-square to that assertion. Try as you might, if you ever have the misfortune of falling for ENFJ, just try to stay on the fringe. I defy you. I defy your 'science', your 'detachment', your 'objectivity'. Once the catalyst hits your surface, kiss your ideology good-bye. Everything will burn away and take new shape. Go ahead. Try and stop it. I can't stop it either.

Sure, but that fire doesn't last years, does it? Do you (or does he) lose identity? INTPs are quite independent.

I'm turbulent. I can't help it. I really can't. I don't know what's wrong with me. I've been this way from the word 'go'. I don't go out for turbulence, but - I don't know. It's a point of deep sadness and mortification for me. Maybe you have to feel some measure of safety to be calm? To stop bucking? I'm trying to learn. But even on my good days, when I'm all right, I'm still feeling the lava moving around under the skin. My sisters and friends say I'm a wild animal and always will be. Is that bad? Because I can't turn it off.

That does sound a bit exhausting. I don't mind emotion directed towards me in the context of a relationship, but I don't want to talk someone down off the ledge all the time because of the external world.

Strong ones don't run..they embrace a fire that doesn't burn...Lava creates new lands on which to plant all sorts of amazing things.

Sounds good, how often is that true?

Honestly, I think I'd rather have a soulmate than a mindmate. I enjoy meeting people whose brain works like mine, but it doesn't naturally inspire passion in me.

Mindmates is a bit more than that. I can get along intellectually with more people than the rare mindmate. The passion is there in those cases. Sometimes not willingly.

Challenging, energetic without being too intense, space for each person to be themselves, a call to stand as equals - not some prince or princess, a feeling of growth (even if is bought about through conflict at times), a sense of respect for the other person's abilities, a sense of depth - long term prospects for fulfillment on both sides.

I like that.

 

[Domino]

Actually, I explained its origin and purpose, which isn't the same as a defining.

Hey, Edahn! It's getting all existential in here and you're not even involved. How does that make you feel?

 

[Domino]

Okay, yeah you are quite right. We do place a very high expectation on our mate to "understand" us. I've had to learn this lesson very hard. I don't expect to have to explain things out, but no one is a mindreader.

How great would it be to just think something and have them know it? I have something like that with my twin and I take it for granted.

What else is an extreme demand by the INTP?

By them? I thought the discussion was about what was a demand ON them? I was hoping you were going to say something along those lines.

Sure, but that fire doesn't last years, does it?

Yes, it does. It's the nature of the Fe-beast.

Do you (or does he) lose identity? INTPs are quite independent.

Here's a matter I was just discussing with Sis last night. The recurring fear by the INTP that they'll be consumed somehow or lose identity. That's not what happens, because quite frankly, I hold onto my identity with an iron grip too, and resent any dilution. Do INTPs pick partners, then, based on the idea that this person hits the "mind" marks but will never "own" the INTP on any level?

That does sound a bit exhausting. I don't mind emotion directed towards me in the context of a relationship, but I don't want to talk someone down off the ledge all the time because of the external world.

That's not me, either. And who would want to be around that?

Mindmates is a bit more than that. I can get along intellectually with more people than the rare mindmate. The passion is there in those cases. Sometimes not willingly.

So this doesn't happen often?

 

[proteanmix]

That's not me, either. And who would want to be around that?

That's kinda the impression I got, that you are very strongly expressive and feel everything intensely and I can't help but wonder how that translates into reality. When I've encountered people like that IRL they tend to overwhelm. I'm just wondering how other people view that part of you.

I am a little concerned that people are going to get the impression that all ENFJs are like that. I know I can be excitable and I'm not ashamed of that, but I wouldn't say that I'm always in an internally heightened state or walk around with my skin turned inside out. How do you deal with being choppy inside for so much of the time?

 

[MacGuffin]

How great would it be to just think something and have them know it? I have something like that with my twin and I take it for granted.

Never known that.

By them? I thought the discussion was about what was a demand ON them? I was hoping you were going to say something along those lines.

The Nin quote was about "choose{ing} a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me". Making enormous demands on others is a demand on the INTP. We'd rather be off in our heads.

Fe is quite a demand. I find it delicious, but I'd need time to recharge. It's still extraversion.

Ne is a better way to get more interaction from the INTP. Brainstorm!

Yes, it does. It's the nature of the Fe-beast.

*lights match*

Here's a matter I was just discussing with Sis last night. The recurring fear by the INTP that they'll be consumed somehow or lose identity. That's not what happens, because quite frankly, I hold onto my identity with an iron grip too, and resent any dilution. Do INTPs pick partners, then, based on the idea that this person hits the "mind" marks but will never "own" the INTP on any level?

No, but that fear does exist. I think immature INTPs would probably look for someone that only hits on the mind. They'll realize their mistake eventually.

That's not me, either. And who would want to be around that?

Okay good. But is it okay if you were to get wound up about something, and the guy left the room, came back and doused you with a fire extinguisher? Not that it would solve anything, but because it would be hilariously funny.

So this doesn't happen often?

Often? Probably about as often as your fusion. Though you increase your chances by changing environments.

 

[Domino]

That's kinda the impression I got, that you are very strongly expressive and feel everything intensely and I can't help but wonder how that translates into reality. When I've encountered people like that IRL they tend to overwhelm. I'm just wondering how other people view that part of you.

I'm intense. Not loud, or mean, or humorless. I've never had someone step back from me fearfully, if that's what you mean? I won't lie and say that I'm not wound tight. I am. But I'm also deeply loyal, funny, and kind. I off-set my intensity with humor and friendliness. I can control my emotions coming *out* - I just can't control them coming *in* which is incredibly frustrating.

I am a little concerned that people are going to get the impression that all ENFJs are like that. I know I can be excitable and I'm not ashamed of that, but I wouldn't say that I'm always in an internally heightened state or walk around with my skin turned inside out.

I'm bringing down the property values? *jest*

I don't represent ENFJs as a whole. Just myself. I relate to Wolfmaiden's intensity a lot, though she posts as an INFJ. I relate to Disregard's intensity and she posts as INFP. Neither of these people are mean or out of control.

How do you deal with being choppy inside for so much of the time?

I spend a lot of time alone. Or I crack jokes with my dad or sister. They naturally lighten my mood. Or I just sit quietly and process through my thoughts/impressions until they achieve a balance.

I think I wouldn't be so choppy if there wasn't always some nasty storm whipping the water up. I'd like calm. What little I've had of it is Nirvana.

Never known that.

The Twin Hive Mind.

The Nin quote was about "choose{ing} a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me". Making enormous demands on others is a demand on the INTP. We'd rather be off in our heads.

Noteworthy.

Fe is quite a demand. I find it delicious, but I'd need time to recharge. It's still extraversion.

I have to recharge too. Hence, the alone time.

Ne is a better way to get more interaction from the INTP. Brainstorm!

My Ni is laying a trap... right.. now....

No, but that fear does exist. I think immature INTPs would probably look for someone that only hits on the mind. They'll realize their mistake eventually.

Thanks for the clarification.

Okay good. But is it okay if you were to get wound up about something, and the guy left the room, came back and doused you with a fire extinguisher? Not that it would solve anything, but because it would be hilariously funny.

You'd do anything to... never mind.

 

[MacGuffin]

My Ni is laying a trap... right.. now....

Uh huh.

You'd do anything to... never mind.

You can't allude to something then not... wait! That's the trap!

*escapes*

 

[Domino]

*snaps fingers*

So close.

 

[Tallulah]

Mindmates is a bit more than that. I can get along intellectually with more people than the rare mindmate. The passion is there in those cases. Sometimes not willingly.

Now that is intriguing. Have you had that? Can you explain a bit what it's like?

How great would it be to just think something and have them know it? I have something like that with my twin and I take it for granted.

This is a bit what I think soulmates would be like. Not so much that you are a mindreader, though, but that you understand where the other person is coming from. I've had that with a very few people. The whole "what do they mean by that? How should I interpret that?" thing with relationships isn't there, because you seem to just get each other on a deeper level, and there's like a gravitational pull toward them. It's the coolest feeling in the world.

Here's a matter I was just discussing with Sis last night. The recurring fear by the INTP that they'll be consumed somehow or lose identity. That's not what happens, because quite frankly, I hold onto my identity with an iron grip too, and resent any dilution. Do INTPs pick partners, then, based on the idea that this person hits the "mind" marks but will never "own" the INTP on any level?

I think it's very possible that a lot of INTPs do. I don't think any INTP wants to be controlled. We'll always have to feel as if we're making our own decisions, and no one is pulling our strings. Consumed is a bit different, though. Consumed could have some positive possibilities. I actually love the idea of finding someone that makes me forget my stubborn old self a bit--someone that sort of triggers some of my other qualities. I find that my personality can be very, very affected by the chemistry with other individuals. I can't say, "Oh, I like this type." It's down to my personal chemistry with that individual, and how they make me feel and how I make them feel. Some people bring out weird sides of me, and I wouldn't want to experience that side in a long term relationship, all the time. If that makes any sense at all.

 

[Domino]

This is a bit what I think soulmates would be like. Not so much that you are a mindreader, though, but that you understand where the other person is coming from. I've had that with a very few people. The whole "what do they mean by that? How should I interpret that?" thing with relationships isn't there, because you seem to just get each other on a deeper level, and there's like a gravitational pull toward them. It's the coolest feeling in the world.

Yes! This!

I think it's very possible that a lot of INTPs do. I don't think any INTP wants to be controlled. We'll always have to feel as if we're making our own decisions, and no one is pulling our strings. Consumed is a bit different, though. Consumed could have some positive possibilities. I actually love the idea of finding someone that makes me forget my stubborn old self a bit--someone that sort of triggers some of my other qualities. I find that my personality can be very, very affected by the chemistry with other individuals. I can't say, "Oh, I like this type." It's down to my personal chemistry with that individual, and how they make me feel and how I make them feel. Some people bring out weird sides of me, and I wouldn't want to experience that side in a long term relationship, all the time. If that makes any sense at all.

Same here. Thank you for your insight, Tulls. *smooch*

 

[MacGuffin]

Now that is intriguing. Have you had that? Can you explain a bit what it's like?

I'm not sure I can. You have seen the massive thread at INTPc, right?

They think like you. It's a bit addictive. A connection. Mindcandy. Add in some sexual attraction and...

It's pretty electric. Similar to what the NFs are saying about soulmates, just perhaps the basis is different. Thinking patterns versus emotional intimacy? I don't want to get drawn into the mindmate/soulmate difference because I don't quite have a handle on soulmates. I hate that term, in fact.

 

[spirilis]

I'm not sure I can. You have seen the massive thread at INTPc, right?

They think like you. It's a bit addictive. A connection. Mindcandy. Add in some sexual attraction and...

It's pretty electric. Similar to what the NFs are saying about soulmates, just perhaps the basis is different. Thinking patterns versus emotional intimacy? I don't want to get drawn into the mindmate/soulmate difference because I don't quite have a handle on soulmates. I hate that term, in fact.

You know, I kept thinking to myself "I've never actually experienced a mindmate before" until this post, and suddenly I just recalled an experience a few weeks ago. A friend of mine was having his typical friday night party but brought over some classmates to work on some group project, and I found myself (and him) talking endlessly after everyone was gone with one of the girls in his group. It was eery (in an exciting sort of way) how our mannerisms and thought processes quite literally meshed. (i.e. she'd think to herself out loud, then apologize for it and I said something like "it's okay I do that too" 'cause boy did her words & thought process sound familiar, and there were other little things I'm not bothering to recall & specify here. It just felt like I was talking to someone who's truly from my own universe.) Additionally I was highly attracted to her based on physical appearance (no idea if that's mutual though I didn't get any vibe that it was), so that was exciting. My preliminary assumption about her type is that she's an ENTP. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity to see her since then, but with any luck I'll have the chance some time soon. That might be an example of an early mindmate "infatuation."

 

[Tallulah]

I'm not sure I can. You have seen the massive thread at INTPc, right?

They think like you. It's a bit addictive. A connection. Mindcandy. Add in some sexual attraction and...

It's pretty electric. Similar to what the NFs are saying about soulmates, just perhaps the basis is different. Thinking patterns versus emotional intimacy? I don't want to get drawn into the mindmate/soulmate difference because I don't quite have a handle on soulmates. I hate that term, in fact.

Yeah, I remember reading that whole thread, actually. I guess I just never got a handle on it. I've experienced a feeling of brain connection with loads of people, mostly in academic settings, but I've only ever experienced a deeper, what I would term soul-level connection with a couple. The latter was more exciting for me. I think I actually am more turned on by the idea of someone being equally smart, but having different processes. For me, this would be sort of a mindmate, as well as soulmate thing. I find that when someone is too much like me, I don't maintain interest.

 

[Jack Flak]

I actually am more turned on by the idea of someone being equally smart, but having different processes.

Yes. That's the only way I could call someone a soulmate. It doesn't happen if they aren't brilliant.

For me, this would be sort of a mindmate, as well as soulmate thing. I find that when someone is too much like me, I don't maintain interest.

Mindmate to me means intellectual cohort, and that's not something I need in a romance.

 

[Littlelostnf]

Okay, yeah you are quite right. We do place a very high expectation on our mate to "understand" us. I've had to learn this lesson very hard. I don't expect to have to explain things out, but no one is a mindreader.

Still, you like that? That "floats your boat"?

Yes it does indeed float my boat..I know I'm sick aren't I? sigh....

What else is an extreme demand by the INTP?

I didn't say extreme demands...I said demands. Ah there's one. The ability to not be afraid to stand up to you....I think somewhere down deep you want us too but you can be scary when we first do. I think you demand a strong woman/man but you want them to be strong without being obvious about it..that's not easy (mind you I'm drinking so this may not be coming out correctly but I basically mean what I'm saying.

Ummm if you're a bright INTP you want someone to challenge you in the intelligence department yet not make every convo a debate..

Sure, but that fire doesn't last years, does it? Do you (or does he) lose identity? INTPs are quite independent.

So are NF's (independant) we want a partner who wants and will come together with us but part of that is allowing us to be who we are and that requires allowing us our independance and alone time. We are constantly trying to figure ourselves out and so allowing us to do that is and requires not melding into one "partner" lump but taking a ride side by side.

That does sound a bit exhausting. I don't mind emotion directed towards me in the context of a relationship, but I don't want to talk someone down off the ledge all the time because of the external world.

I really don't think Pink meant all that...simply that we are very...you know I don't want to say what she meant...

Sounds good, how often is that true?

Wow can't remember the original question or if it was directed towards me..I'll have to go back and look...(wow it's only been a bit of rum..sigh) Wait was this about the lava..it's true and it's always (at least for me) I want to build new lands with the person I'm with...it stays new and it's what I'd do if I were only just with myself so it's not a stress just what I do..and I'd want him to be willing to go there with me. there will always be the original me to go back to now and then..if he wants.

I like that.

Yeah I liked what she said also....

Wow I really messed that up...better sign out and concentrate on one thing at a time.

 

[Domino]

I don't want to get drawn into the mindmate/soulmate difference because I don't quite have a handle on soulmates. I hate that term, in fact.

I first saw him on the day of orientation. I sat at the front of the room. My foreman was waiting for everyone to sit down before starting The Official Orientation Speech, taking us around the garage. This usual orientation speech was prefaced with "this is a girl..." gesturing to me. Everyone laughed. I waved, smiled. The guys I already knew laughed and waved back sarcastically. "Hey, Pink! So you're a girl, huh? That's cool....kinda knew you were a little off to be a fella..." Ah you people. So charming!

During this speech, he walked in late. He sat down behind me. I was turned sideways in my seat. He stared at me without blinking, like I wasn't supposed to be there or even exist. I stared back. His eyes were almost white.

This began a year and a half's worth of fights, affectionate grappling, witty zingers and just being around each other. He was so dry, so smart, so funny, I was always proud of myself if I managed to crack his deadpan face and make him double over laughing. I remember one day, we were just standing there on break. (On the news this week, there was a passing mention of grocery stores doing unethical things to their produce so they could sell it well after it's freshness date. This was not mentioned in class. I just saw it on the news myself.) I remarked that my friend D (a grocery clerk) had not been to class in days. Boy with the White Eyes shoved a cigarette in his mouth, remarked dryly, "He's probably in the back of the Food Lion, pouring Clorox on the meat..."

That moment is burned into my brain. I always knew he was paying attention, that he was smart and absorbed subtle things. He wasn't like the other boys. He looked up at me through a haze of smoke, saw that I caught the meaning, smiled at me a little when I was asked to explain what that meant and knew what he was talking about. I guess the other guys didn't watch the news. He got a charge out of not having to explain himself to me.

That moment is burned into me because two things occurred: A whiplash meeting of the minds and overarching physical/emotional attraction. Other moments like these occurred, yes, but that one, I don't know. Stands out to me. It sort of typified our interactions.

 

[MacGuffin]

That moment is burned into me because two things occurred: A whiplash meeting of the minds and overarching physical/emotional attraction. Other moments like these occurred, yes, but that one, I don't know. Stands out to me. It sort of typified our interactions.

Still hate the term.

It implies there is only One out there. Crap.

 

[Jack Flak]

Hmm. Well I know that's bogus, so if I use the term (I wouldn't aside from the mindmate/soulmate/playmate biz), it doesn't refer to "one."