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[Fe] Extraverted Feeling in American Culture

Gabe_2

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Hello Folks.

I think that I will be doing a series of posts about how type is expressed in American (USA) culture. If I were doing this right, I'd start off by explaining why the hypothesis that the USA has an "ESTJ culture" is convincing to me. For now, I'll leave that out, I might bring it up at some later time.

What I'd like to address now is something about the expression of extraverted feeling in the USA. I want to do this to address some of the constant hostility to Fe types on this forum (over all, I would guess that there is a general bias towards the Te-Fi judgement axis here). I think one of the ways to do this, is to point out the following: I think people on this forum need to learn to recognize the difference between extraverted feeling; as expressed by actual Fe types, versus the pathological ways that extraverted feeling is often expressed through the cultural shadow.

For a definition of what I'm talking about, lets refer to a decent definition of the problem:

Dolphin Dive » Blog Archive » Defining Introverted Feeling and Extraverted Feeling

[Vicky Jo, citing John Beebe]

Especially, pay attention to this part of the quote from the Beebe article:

"In its shadow aspect, extraverted feeling tends to discriminate against feelings that are less easy to identify with, and therefore less socially acceptable. The result is that extraverted feeling tends to ignore or harshly judge emotional needs that do not validate collective norms. This kind of response can lead to forms of bullying and prejudice, as majority values are emphasized at the expense of other, more individual values."

And Vicky Jo's thoughts on this are:

"It’s a bit of a shock to consider feeling being used as a form of bullying and prejudice; nevertheless, I can think of times, particularly in my high school days, when I have censured others for not behaving according to collective norms. It’s interesting to reconsider those experiences now, in light of the eight-function model and a [hopefully] more developed consciousness.
While I may have snubbed others for displaying “inappropriate behavior,” my transgressions pale in comparison to the extreme pressure from the Collective to hide our unpleasant emotions. Emotional expression of any kind is “unseemly” and readily discouraged, while pills are dispensed by the millions to keep us from feeling anything “bad.” We have an extremely repressed emotional culture, and it leaves many of us feeling like automotons."


This rings true to me based on my own experience of feeling types. People with well-developed feeling functions (of either attitude) often actually have a pretty high tolerance for depressing content and harder-to-identify-with emotions and needs. This is why I think it is incredibly important that people learn to distinguish between extraverted feeling types and the cultural/shadowy expression of Fe in America.

For an example on that shadowy cultural expression, I'm going to turn it over to Barbara Ehrenreich and her story of "cancerland" and what some people now colorfully call the 'breast cancer cult', and her little 'smile or die' video:

Breast Cancer Action Archive - Welcome to Cancerland: A Mammogram Leads to a Cult of Pink Kitsch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo

In the 2nd video, she also points out some things that I might consider childish/immature expressions of extraverted intuition in the american culture (the self-help book racket, the quantum mysticism).

For the article by B. Ehrenreich, pay particular attention to these quotes (relating to the cultural shadow extraverted feeling):

"It is the very blandness of breast cancer, at least in mainstream perceptions, that makes it an attractive object of corporate charity and a way for companies to brand themselves friends of the middle-aged female market. With breast cancer, "there was no concern that you might actually turn off your audience because of the life style or sexual connotations that AIDS has," Amy Langer, director of the National Alliance of Breast Cancer Organizations, told the New York Times in 1996. 'That gives corporations a certain freedom and a certain relief in supporting the cause." Or as Cindy Pearson, director of the National Women's Health Network, the organizational progeny of the Women's Health Movement, puts it more caustically: "Breast cancer provides a way of doing something for women, without being feminist."

"As an experiment, I post a statement on the Komen.org message board, under the subject line "angry," briefly listing my own heartfelt complaints about debilitating treatments, recalcitrant insurance companies, environmental carcinogens, and, most daringly, "sappy pink ribbons." I receive a few words of encouragement in my fight with the insurance company, which has taken the position that my biopsy was a kind of optional indulgence, but mostly a chorus of rebukes. "Suzy" writes to say, "I really dislike saying you have a bad attitude towards all of this, but you do, and it's not going to help you in the least." "Mary" is a bit more tolerant, writing, "Barb, at this time in your life, it's so important to put all your energies toward a peaceful, if not happy, existence. Cancer is a rotten thing to have happen and there are no answers for any of us as to why. But to live your life, whether you have one more year or 51, in anger and bitterness is such a waste…I hope you can find some peace. You deserve it. We all do. God bless you and keep you in His loving care. Your sister, Mary."

"Kitty," however, thinks I've gone around the bend: "You need to run, not walk, to some counseling…Please, get yourself some help and I ask everyone on this site to pray for you so you can enjoy life to the fullest.""


"To the extent that current methods of detection and treatment fail or fall short, America's breast-cancer cult can be judged as an outbreak of mass delusion, celebrating survivorhood by downplaying mortality and promoting obedience to medical protocols known to have limited efficacy."

Back to cultures: where there's a more developed feeling at the cultural level, you have stuff like people who are hired to cry at a strangers' funeral. That may be weird, but it's a lot saner than the repressed crap that goes on in the US of A.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Gabe_2 said:
"As an experiment, I post a statement on the Komen.org message board, under the subject line "angry," briefly listing my own heartfelt complaints about debilitating treatments, recalcitrant insurance companies, environmental carcinogens, and, most daringly, "sappy pink ribbons." I receive a few words of encouragement in my fight with the insurance company, which has taken the position that my biopsy was a kind of optional indulgence, but mostly a chorus of rebukes. "Suzy" writes to say, "I really dislike saying you have a bad attitude towards all of this, but you do, and it's not going to help you in the least." "Mary" is a bit more tolerant, writing, "Barb, at this time in your life, it's so important to put all your energies toward a peaceful, if not happy, existence. Cancer is a rotten thing to have happen and there are no answers for any of us as to why. But to live your life, whether you have one more year or 51, in anger and bitterness is such a waste…I hope you can find some peace. You deserve it. We all do. God bless you and keep you in His loving care. Your sister, Mary."

If I was a woman with breast cancer, that kind of thing would piss me off.
 

Jaguar

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A dump thread on the USA and quoting Vicky Jo. Can it get any worse? Of course it can - by claiming hiring people to cry at funerals is sane and somehow indicative of "developed feeling."
 

1487610420

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A dump thread on the USA and quoting Vicky Jo. Can it get any worse? Of course it can - by claiming hiring people to cry at funerals is sane and somehow indicative of "developed feeling."

I see it as new variations of the same foundational m.o. on which the usofa where built.

ETA:
It’s a bit of a shock to consider feeling being used as a form of bullying and prejudice;

How is that a shock? Rather, what else would those things stem from? Unless - drum roll- the assessment is an embodiment of the sentiment regarding Fe's challenge in processing things outside of the norm, which -drum roll- is likely a SUBJECTIVE assessment?
 

Gabe_2

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Responding to Jaguar:

I start a thread quoting a highly experienced therapist/jungian expert and another experienced type expert. A decently long post, that I put a good deal of thought into, and that represents some trains of thoughts that I've been having for at least a few years. And what to you have? A two-line out-of-hand dismissal of it all, based on nothing except an implied ad-hominem attack of one of the experts I cited. People like you are the reason that conversations on this forum usually suck.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Responding to Jaguar:

I start a thread quoting a highly experienced therapist/jungian expert and another experienced type expert. A decently long post, that I put a good deal of thought into, and that represents some trains of thoughts that I've been having for at least a few years. And what to you have? A two-line out-of-hand dismissal of it all, based on nothing except an implied ad-hominem attack of one of the experts I cited. People like you are the reason that conversations on this forum usually suck.

I hardly think that's fair. He was just stating his opinion. It didn't seem like an ad-hominem attack at all.
 

Jaguar

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Responding to Jaguar:

I start a thread quoting a highly experienced therapist/jungian expert and another experienced type expert. A decently long post, that I put a good deal of thought into, and that represents some trains of thoughts that I've been having for at least a few years. And what to you have? A two-line out-of-hand dismissal of it all, based on nothing except an implied ad-hominem attack of one of the experts I cited. People like you are the reason that conversations on this forum usually suck.


Calm yourself.
 

Bush

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"As an experiment, I post a statement on the Komen.org message board, under the subject line "angry," briefly listing my own heartfelt complaints about debilitating treatments, recalcitrant insurance companies, environmental carcinogens, and, most daringly, "sappy pink ribbons." I receive a few words of encouragement in my fight with the insurance company, which has taken the position that my biopsy was a kind of optional indulgence, but mostly a chorus of rebukes. "Suzy" writes to say, "I really dislike saying you have a bad attitude towards all of this, but you do, and it's not going to help you in the least." "Mary" is a bit more tolerant, writing, "Barb, at this time in your life, it's so important to put all your energies toward a peaceful, if not happy, existence. Cancer is a rotten thing to have happen and there are no answers for any of us as to why. But to live your life, whether you have one more year or 51, in anger and bitterness is such a waste…I hope you can find some peace. You deserve it. We all do. God bless you and keep you in His loving care. Your sister, Mary."

"Kitty," however, thinks I've gone around the bend: "You need to run, not walk, to some counseling…Please, get yourself some help and I ask everyone on this site to pray for you so you can enjoy life to the fullest.""
What [MENTION=4660]Vulcan[/MENTION] said.

The huge problem with this is that there's very little actual support. She was told, essentially.. "Have you tried being happy instead of sad? That would be a pretty good start." Why should the way she feels be treated as invalid? That's a load if I've ever seen one.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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What [MENTION=4660]Vulcan[/MENTION] said.

The huge problem with this is that there's very little actual support. She was told, essentially.. "Have you tried being happy instead of sad? That would be a pretty good start." Why should the way she feels be treated as invalid? That's a load if I've ever seen one.

People act like there's a big switch you can flip that will make you happy. I have actually read some books that helped me out with this, but the thing that pisses me off about this is that when people say that, they almost never give any practical advice. It's obvious to me that they don't actually give a fuck about how I feel.
 

Gabe_2

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I see it as new variations of the same foundational m.o. on which the usofa where built.

ETA:

How is that a shock? Rather, what else would those things stem from? Unless - drum roll- the assessment is an embodiment of the sentiment regarding Fe's challenge in processing things outside of the norm, which -drum roll- is likely a SUBJECTIVE assessment?

Well, it's not just about a challenge in processing "things" outside the norm. That's one of the partially false assumptions that gets constantly peddled on this forum. Read the quote again:

"The result is that extraverted feeling tends to ignore or harshly judge emotional needs that do not validate collective norms"

emotional needs

I started this thread, because I wanted to attempt to undo some of the assumptions that are perpetuated in conversations on this forum. When people consider broad brush notions about extraverted feeling, I think that they should also consider:

Fe types, vs. the expression of the function in other personalities and in the culture in general. In America, Fe is deep in the cultural shadow. A lot of the time time, there's a pretty big difference between Fe as expressed by Fe types, vs. as expressed by people who have less-developed Fe, vs. how it's expressed through the culture. This is what I wanted people to recognize by reading the Vicky Jo quote. I don't want to undermine my case by putting extraverted feeling types on a pedestal above other types, but I will re-state this: I believe that a lot of unfair broad-brush judgement of extraverted feeling types stems from seeing Fe as expressed through the cultural shadow and assuming/projecting that all of that stuff shows up as a trait in individual Dom-Fe individuals.
 

1487610420

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Well, it's not just about a challenge in processing "things" outside the norm. That's one of the partially false assumptions that gets constantly peddled on this forum. Read the quote again:

"The result is that extraverted feeling tends to ignore or harshly judge emotional needs that do not validate collective norms"

emotional needs

I started this thread, because I wanted to attempt to undo some of the assumptions that are perpetuated in conversations on this forum. When people consider broad brush notions about extraverted feeling, I think that they should also consider:

Fe types, vs. the expression of the function in other personalities and in the culture in general. In America, Fe is deep in the cultural shadow. A lot of the time time, there's a pretty big difference between Fe as expressed by Fe types, vs. as expressed by people who have less-developed Fe, vs. how it's expressed through the culture. This is what I wanted people to recognize by reading the Vicky Jo quote. I don't want to undermine my case by putting extraverted feeling types on a pedestal above other types, but I will re-state this: I believe that a lot of unfair broad-brush judgement of extraverted feeling types stems from seeing Fe as expressed through the cultural shadow and assuming/projecting that all of that stuff shows up as a trait in individual Dom-Fe individuals.

Great. Why are you quoting me just to repeat yourself and demonstrate your inability to realize that while you are so eagerly trying to demonstrate something, your m.o/words/reasoning are actually providing empirical data that invalidates your point.

ETA: In fact, I will argue that Fe-Dom's high prevalence of Fe in their thought process only contributes to further deepen the Fe-thinking process bias. IOW the (blindsight of) F(e)orce is stronger in you.
 

Gabe_2

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Great. Why are you quoting me just to repeat yourself and demonstrate your inability to realize that while you are so eagerly trying to demonstrate something, your m.o/words/reasoning are actually providing empirical data that invalidates your point.

ETA: In fact, I will argue that Fe-Dom's high prevalence of Fe in their thought process only contributes to further deepen the Fe-thinking process bias. IOW the (blindsight of) F(e)orce is stronger in you.

I have some guesses about where you're going with this, but that also leads me to guess that you've only read (or only skimmed) my original post and not bothered to look at the websites I linked to. Read my whole post. Read the Vicky Jo blog post (all of it, including both Beebe quotes). Make sure to read the Beebe quotes. Make sure not to make rushed interpretations based on out-of-context reading of those quotes. If you really want to show some diligence, skim or even read the Ehrenreich article. If you're an honest thinker, a few light bulbs will go off and you might start to understand what I'm saying. If not, you'll continue with whatever your current argument is about to be, complete with saying that I'm a feeling type, as if that automatically discredits my point (a common and very cheesy tactic on this forum).

I really hope that you reconsider my point. I'm sorry about not being diplomatic in my responses to you, but because of my previous experience with this forum, I also have zero patience for both the attitude and the content of responses like yours.
 

Tennessee Jed

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Hello Folks.

I think that I will be doing a series of posts about how type is expressed in American (USA) culture. If I were doing this right, I'd start off by explaining why the hypothesis that the USA has an "ESTJ culture" is convincing to me. For now, I'll leave that out, I might bring it up at some later time. [...snipped]

I have no problem with Beebe's notes about the negative facets of Fe and Fi. And I have no problem with most of what Vicki Jo adds on her own behalf.

On the other hand, I don't really buy into the idea of cherry-picking socio-political trends in the US and abroad and labeling them Fe or ESTJ or whatever. MBTI is supposed to be about how personality traits show up in individuals. I know that some commentators like to use MBTI in a popular sense and assign it to cultures or countries or pets or whatever. But I'm kind of a purist and I don't really buy into that, myself.

I understand that it's meant as a shorthand of sorts: People routinely say in passing that the US business world is ESTJ, the medical field is INTJ, the engineering field is ENTP, etc. But I still sort of cringe when I see any sort of serious, detailed, in-depth, scholarly exposition to the effect that this or that social policy or attitude is "Fe" or "ESTJ" or whatever. To me, that's taking the MBTI concept a stretch too far. MBTI isn't really supposed to be used in that manner.

Here's a comparison: Political commentators may label a country's foreign policy as "paranoid" or "passive-aggressive." But that's just a convenient popular label. It's not an actual medical term. No one actually expects the foreign policy to somehow map to the detailed descriptions of "paranoia" and "passive aggression" contained in the American Psychological Association's DSM-IV.

Same with things like criticisms of breast cancer policy and attitudes. Breast cancer policy and attitudes are an outgrowth of US politics, economics, feminism, medicine, health care policy, etc. To call it "Fe" is a convenient label, but it's one-dimensional. Fe doesn't explain the existence or the nature of breast cancer policy and attitudes in all their complexity; and the socio-political phenomenon of breast cancer attitudes doesn't actually map well to the psychological complexity involved in true, MBTI-based Fe.

Even the concept of "bullying" isn't a direct map to Fe. Other functions (Fi, Ti, Te) can easily be perceived as "bullying" in various contexts. If you really want to make a detailed analysis of social shaming in US society at large and how it's related to personality type, then you're going to have to break down all the combinations and permutations of what that entails.

For example, the OP cites emailed comments shaming a breast cancer patient about her attitude toward her cancer. Can you really be 100 percent sure those unknown "bullies" that made the comments were Fe-users? If you don't know their type, then that section of the OP doesn't prove anything. Besides, there's a popular, widespread misconception that when it comes to diseases like cancer, the patient's personal attitude affects the medical outcome. So *any* personality type laboring under that misconception could end up playing the "bully" in the name of trying to help out the breast cancer patient for her own good.

Finally, there's politics. Think about public health campaigns to push people to get vaccines, lose weight, quit smoking, etc. Partisans on one one side will say, "Fat-shaming is Fe bullying." Partisans on the other side will say, "Peer pressure in the name of public health is good." Who says that one kind of campaign or public attitude is Fe bullying where another kind is a legitimate public health campaign?

In other words, mapping cognitive functions to sociopolitical concepts raises a lot of questions and crosses a lot of lines. Basically, I think MBTI is best kept to its original medical/psychological framework and discussed in terms of individuals and how they relate to the world around them. When scholarly articles make a serious argument in favor of tacking cognitive functions onto sociopolitical trends in larger society, that's kind of an abuse in my opinion.

Again, just my own (admittedly purist) take on MBTI-related things.
 

Haven

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Calm yourself.

This reiterates the point expressed in the OP that Fe in American society is constrained to a small set of acceptable expressions, and this creates a very oppressive cultural Fe environment.

Even the concept of "bullying" isn't a direct map to Fe. Other functions (Fi, Ti, Te) can easily be perceived as "bullying" in various contexts. If you really want to make a detailed analysis of social shaming in US society at large and how it's related to personality type, then you're going to have to break down all the combinations and permutations of what that entails.

For example, the OP cites emailed comments shaming a breast cancer patient about her attitude toward her cancer. Can you really be 100 percent sure those unknown "bullies" that made the comments were Fe-users? If you don't know their type, then that section of the OP doesn't prove anything. Besides, there's a popular, widespread misconception that when it comes to diseases like cancer, the patient's personal attitude affects the medical outcome. So *any* personality type laboring under that misconception could end up playing the "bully" in the name of trying to help out the breast cancer patient for her own good.

I don't think it has as much to do with the types of the individuals as it does with the overall culture. As [MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] has just demonstrated here, the actual content of an argument doesn't need to be addressed as long as they seem too emotional about it (a subjective assessment). And so it goes in the breast cancer thread.

That is to say it's not the Fe types themselves, because Fe types reflect the prevailing cultural attitudes.
 

Jaguar

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This reiterates the point expressed in the OP that Fe in American society is constrained to a small set of acceptable expressions, and this creates a very oppressive cultural Fe environment.

My ENFJ friends would disagree. But then they all have balls. Even the females.
 

Gabe_2

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I have no problem with Beebe's notes about the negative facets of Fe and Fi. And I have no problem with most of what Vicki Jo adds on her own behalf.

On the other hand, I don't really buy into the idea of cherry-picking socio-political trends in the US and abroad and labeling them Fe or ESTJ or whatever. MBTI is supposed to be about how personality traits show up in individuals. I know that some commentators like to use MBTI in a popular sense and assign it to cultures or countries or pets or whatever. But I'm kind of a purist and I don't really buy into that, myself.

I'm not totally sure I buy into it, but the notion of the USA as an 'ESTJ culture' overall rings true on several levels, so I like to use it as a useful and at least partially true idea.

I understand that it's meant as a shorthand of sorts: People routinely say in passing that the US business world is ESTJ, the medical field is INTJ, the engineering field is ENTP, etc. But I still sort of cringe when I see any sort of serious, detailed, in-depth, scholarly exposition to the effect that this or that social policy or attitude is "Fe" or "ESTJ" or whatever. To me, that's taking the MBTI concept a stretch too far. MBTI isn't really supposed to be used in that manner.

Here's a comparison: Political commentators may label a country's foreign policy as "paranoid" or "passive-aggressive." But that's just a convenient popular label. It's not an actual medical term. No one actually expects the foreign policy to somehow map to the detailed descriptions of "paranoia" and "passive aggression" contained in the American Psychological Association's DSM-IV.

Funny that you bring up the psych. labels. One reason the "ESTJ culture" idea works for me is that the cultural expression of Ti in this country also seems to be messed up. In the case of the Bush administration, there was tons of shady namings that they used to forward their policy goals. The "axis of evil", for instance. "Weapons of mass destruction" (as opposed to what? non-destructive weapons?). "Enemy combatants". I remember a good moment on The View (yes, it sometimes happens), when Liz Hasselbeck tried to make a distinction between "torture" and "enhanced interrogation methods" and Jesse ventura replied "enhanced interrogation is Dick Cheney changing a word". In hindsight, those namings seem incredibly corny, like Bush & co took them out of a bad comic book or something (in the case of Bush, it may have also been affected by his personal shadow, as an ISFP person). My impression is that in the USA, Ti often operates as a kind of bullshit factory used to excuse crummy and/or hypocritical actions and to pathologize perspectives, actions, or ways of being that aren't yet fully culturally accepted. But then again, that might just be my impression of the Bush years coming from a politically biased person like myself (and I am biased, in case you couldn't tell).

Same with things like criticisms of breast cancer policy and attitudes. Breast cancer policy and attitudes are an outgrowth of US politics, economics, feminism, medicine, health care policy, etc. To call it "Fe" is a convenient label, but it's one-dimensional. Fe doesn't explain the existence or the nature of breast cancer policy and attitudes in all their complexity; and the socio-political phenomenon of breast cancer attitudes doesn't actually map well to the psychological complexity involved in true, MBTI-based Fe.

Even the concept of "bullying" isn't a direct map to Fe. Other functions (Fi, Ti, Te) can easily be perceived as "bullying" in various contexts. If you really want to make a detailed analysis of social shaming in US society at large and how it's related to personality type, then you're going to have to break down all the combinations and permutations of what that entails.

For example, the OP cites emailed comments shaming a breast cancer patient about her attitude toward her cancer. Can you really be 100 percent sure those unknown "bullies" that made the comments were Fe-users? If you don't know their type, then that section of the OP doesn't prove anything. Besides, there's a popular, widespread misconception that when it comes to diseases like cancer, the patient's personal attitude affects the medical outcome. So *any* personality type laboring under that misconception could end up playing the "bully" in the name of trying to help out the breast cancer patient for her own good.

I agree with a lot of what you just said, especially the part of not knowing the types of the individuals on the cancer forum that B. Ehrenreich posted on. But you are missing one of the important distinctions that I'm trying to make here. Re-read my posts. And the linked articles.

Finally, there's politics. Think about public health campaigns to push people to get vaccines, lose weight, quit smoking, etc. Partisans on one one side will say, "Fat-shaming is Fe bullying." Partisans on the other side will say, "Peer pressure in the name of public health is good." Who says that one kind of campaign or public attitude is Fe bullying where another kind is a legitimate public health campaign?

In other words, mapping cognitive functions to sociopolitical concepts raises a lot of questions and crosses a lot of lines. Basically, I think MBTI is best kept to its original medical/psychological framework and discussed in terms of individuals and how they relate to the world around them. When scholarly articles make a serious argument in favor of tacking cognitive functions onto sociopolitical trends in larger society, that's kind of an abuse in my opinion.

Again, just my own (admittedly purist) take on MBTI-related things.

I agree that we should always be careful about making broad-brush statements about a culture, and on typing groups. I agree that that's an iffy intellectual exercise. But I also think that a lot of what has been said about the US rings true on several levels.

So I know you're not going to like what comes next, but I can't really help myself: while fat shaming in the USA may involve some feeling in it, I believe that the main issue in this case is a primarily a perception problem tied to projecting the cultural shadow of extraverted sensing onto fat people.
 

prplchknz

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My experience with the world has been mostly fake fe or inferior that ends up making me feel worse and then when i fight against i get blamed and outlasted. But healthy fe users both fe dorms and auxes i get a long with great they actually do usually get me to feel better most of the time. So i agree with the op that the culture here is one that pretends to care and make big production but they don't. It be better if it was i don't sympathize and i might not have the correct solution but have you tried xyz? And if the person says yes but it didn't work instead of the agenda being pushed they say ok get more info and either admit they don't have a solution or suggest another based on additional information
 
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