J & P, just there to provide order, or something more?

[Ilah]

Looking at the 4 letters in my type, INTJ:

I have a fairly strong sense of being more introverted than extroverted, more intuitive than sensing and more thinking than feeling.

However, don't idenitify strongly with being more judgemental than perceptive. Originally I thought I was P. I started to suspect I might be J mostly based on the function order. I feel that NiTe describes me much better than TiNe, which would make me INTJ. Several tests I have taken on line score me as INTJ.

Most of the things I have read that talk about the letters individually tends to focus on S, N, T and F or Si, Se, Ni, Ne, Ti, Te, Fi, Fe. They don't really talk as much about J and P. I have read things on how to tell Ni from Ne but nothing on NP v. NJ. It sound like Keirnsey talks about J v. P, but only for people who are S.

So are J and P as important a part of your personality as the other letters or are they there just to put the fuctions in order.

Ilah

 

[disregard]

All of the letters are just there to put the functions in order.

I/E tells whether or not your dominant function is extraverted
S/N tells whether you have a natural preference for S or N, as with T/F
and J/P tells whether or not you have a natural preference for extraverted or introverted judgment

 

[Colors]

They're just there to put the letters in order... which I think happens to make a great deal of difference. Functionally, an ESTP (SeTi) and an ESFP(SeFi) are more similar than an ESTP and an ESTJ (TeSi).

As an introvert, you probably don't feel like more of a judger or a perceiver because the "J" denotes the outward judgement... as your auxilary.

 

[Ilah]

On the birth order and J and P post, they ask if people feel "strongly J" or "strongly P." Would extroverts be more likely to feel strongly about J or P?

Ilah

 

[Thursday]

by us being INJ's
we are percievers, technically
being dominated be Ni and all

 

[Haphazard]

INTPs are dominant judgers, while INTJs are dominant perceivers. It's just that the dominant function is introverted.

INTJs are more 'N' while INTPs are more 'T'.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

The MBTI types are based on the order of preference regarding cognitive functions.

The cognitive functions are Fe, Fi, Te, Ti, Se, Si, Ne, Ni.
As you can see, there are eight, and none of them explicitly refer to J or P.
However, it is a reference to a larger classification. Fe, Fi, Te, and Ti are all Judging functions. So they are J. Se, Si, Ne, Ni are all Perceiving functions, so they are P.

Now, in effect, every letter in an MB type is there only to signify the order of someone's processes. How the theory works is that if you are E, your dominant process will be Extraverted, and your secondary process will be Introverted. The I has it the other way around.

S/N determines whether or not your highest Perceiving process is Sensing or Intuiting. T/F decides whether or not your highest Judging process is Feeling or Thinking.

Now... J and P is more confusing. For extraverts, Ps have a Perceiving process as their highest process, and Js have a Judging process as their highest process. However, it is reversed for Introverts. Opposite to what would immediately make sense, Ps have a Judging process as their highest process, and Js have a Perceiving process as their highest process.

So, I explained in some detail that all letters, which includes J/P, are for establishing order. So that answers one question.

Now, is J/P less important? There's debate around that. A lot of people have their own theories regarding which variable is the most important. Honestly, completely following the MBTI theory, I think J/P should have a more relevant difference than E/I.

My reason for think this is that E/I only flips the order of the top two processes. For example, INFP = Fi>Ne, while ENFP = Ne>Fi.

On the other hand, J/P actually changes which individual process are involved. For example, INFP = Fi>Ne, while INFJ = Ni>Fe.

I believe that changing the actul processes involved is more consequential than simply reversing the order of the same two processes. I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, though.

I personally think outside of the MBTI often. Various concepts like adhering to only the sixteen MB patterns, or viewing the functions as existing on a continuum, are one that I frequenrly break from, as they usually seem to me like uncessesary contrivances.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

So are J and P as important a part of your personality as the other letters or are they there just to put the fuctions in order.

I think J and P are a bigger deal for extraverts than for introverts. For example, being an extravert I get drained being in a low stimulus environment, but what I find even more draining is being in a highly structured environment. The people who irritate me the most are those who display a strong J preference. This is really because my dominant function is Ne, but I don't have problems with heavy Se users as much as heavy Te or Fe users.

 

[Athenian200]

Looking at the 4 letters in my type, INTJ:

I have a fairly strong sense of being more introverted than extroverted, more intuitive than sensing and more thinking than feeling.

However, don't idenitify strongly with being more judgemental than perceptive. Originally I thought I was P. I started to suspect I might be J mostly based on the function order. I feel that NiTe describes me much better than TiNe, which would make me INTJ. Several tests I have taken on line score me as INTJ.

Most of the things I have read that talk about the letters individually tends to focus on S, N, T and F or Si, Se, Ni, Ne, Ti, Te, Fi, Fe. They don't really talk as much about J and P. I have read things on how to tell Ni from Ne but nothing on NP v. NJ. It sound like Keirnsey talks about J v. P, but only for people who are S.

So are J and P as important a part of your personality as the other letters or are they there just to put the fuctions in order.

Ilah

Well, for Es, J and P work pretty well. For Is, they don't really. I seem very J, but I know that's more how my Auxiliary comes out so rigid and threadbare (it's a bit shaky and underdevloped). Many IJs don't, however. So some Is identify with their Auxiliary Extraverted function's J/P more easily, others don't.

You should probably look at function order, although it may also be helpful to focus on whether the way you interact with the outside world appears more organized and decisive, compared with the way you tend to be alone in your head. If you identify more with INTJ description than INTP, then you're probably an INTJ.

SJs tend to be somewhat more visibly organized and decisive than NJs, so it maybe a more important distinction for them.

J and P mostly put the functions in order for Is, but can have varying degrees of usefulness to individuals.

 

[Mondo]

On the birth order and J and P post, they ask if people feel "strongly J" or "strongly P." Would extroverts be more likely to feel strongly about J or P?

Ilah

I think that's likely true.

 

[Xander]

Oh hell yeah it matters. You can't be all OCD and hyper clean freak and not be a J... it just wouldn't work!!

 

[Ilah]

Oh hell yeah it matters. You can't be all OCD and hyper clean freak and not be a J... it just wouldn't work!!

I have some OCD tendancies but I don't fit the official criteria. I suppose it says something unflattering about me that I actually looked it up to be sure.

Ilah

 

[Xander]

I have some OCD tendancies but I don't fit the official criteria. I suppose it says something unflattering about me that I actually looked it up to be sure.

Ilah

You do put your name after every post....

 

[Ilah]

You do put your name after every post....

Another board I am on conciders that the polite thing to do, even though it is obvious who is sending it.

I just assumed it was standard. I can quit now, or at least try to.

 

[Xander]

Another board I am on conciders that the polite thing to do, even though it is obvious who is sending it.

I just assumed it was standard. I can quit now, or at least try to.

It was only an observation... I thought you were just being precise.. I've no problem with precise...

 

[mollyowens]

On the birth order and J and P post, they ask if people feel "strongly J" or "strongly P." Would extroverts be more likely to feel strongly about J or P?

Ilah

Actually I think it depends more on your S/N preference than on E/I. If you think about it in terms of temperament types, then Sensors are more likely to have a strong sense of J or P. According to temperament theory, Intuitives gather information about the big picture and then use their Thinking or Feeling function to interpret it (so they are either NF or NT in temperament). Sensors, on the other hand, gather concrete information and then use their Judging or Perceiving function to organize it (making them either SPs or SJs). So it would follow that the J/P function would feel more central to your personality if you were a Sensor.

 

[FDG]

The fact that in the MBTI system introverts Js have a dominant perceiving function is a clear profund flaw of the whole theory. This is one of the (many) reasons why socionics is a much more wholesome personality theory.

 

[Jack Flak]

Socionics has its issues with functions too*. And it depends a lot on your definitions of the functions...I'll probably have some insight there in a few years, bbl.

For example, I'm a perceiver, yet by all accounts severely Ti dominant. So I don't fit anywhere nicely within Socionics except in regard to intertype relations, where everything fits with me being INTp.

 

[FDG]

Socionics has its issues with functions too.

Perhaps, but definitely not as many as MBTI!

 

[edcoaching]

The fact that in the MBTI system introverts Js have a dominant perceiving function is a clear profund flaw of the whole theory. This is one of the (many) reasons why socionics is a much more wholesome personality theory.

Why is that a profound flaw rather than perhaps an inconvenient nomenclature? Users trained on the actual instrument know J/P point to the extraverted function, which is only the dominant for E's? It might be a trick for people to pick up but it isn't about the theory, only about understanding the code. I admit that socionics has a perhaps easier-to-understand method with j and p but...