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[MBTI General] NE vs. NI here we go again!

GarrotTheThief

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NE is multiple frameworks. For instance, a framework is a way of doing things or a set of rules to follow that provide examples, maybe.

A framework in accounting is generally accepted accounting principles.

Learning one framework and improving it is NI...or using your imagination to navigate the framework is NI.

Learning multiple frameworks is NE. ENTP's are known at being good at sales and science. How can this be? Well they tend to learn multiple frameworks and intigrate them.

Example: Electrical engineering is taught and applied according to the framework which is schematics, electricity, etc...

Biology has it's own framework. The two overlap...there is such a thing as bioelectricity. Electrical principles are involved in living organisms...

SO an ENTP is more of an inventor who bridges the gap between different sciences if we are just typing him to a high powered NE in science.

But an entp in accoutning would reconcile GAAP, generally accepted accounting principles, to another framework like, international accounting principles.

Hence NE + TI provides for a highly analytical mind that knows the differences and similarities between systems where as NI and TE provides for a highly analytical mind that provides for differences and similarities within a system.

I'm off to see a movie with my pops...let me know what you think about my NE vs. NI thread - I think this is the best way to look at it because the framework is a great way to see how the two differ.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Awesome thread, although I'm not sure what the "here we go again" refers to. I've never seen a thread like this before. The judging functions are more often contrasted. I find both interesting and feel a lot of kinship with Ne, although it's more like an awesome head trip for me since Ni tends to be a bit more structured like a tree, and Ne is a bit more like a daisy chain that can find an abstract connection between any two random concepts. There is a flexibility and agility with Ne that is really interesting to me. Both Ni and Ne internalize everything they encounter that is of the abstract realm of patterns and interrelationships. Ne is much more spontaneous and can readily find any connection, but Ni takes more time to internalize and construct its relationships.
 

lunalum

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I'm not sure what all this frameworks stuff is. Ne and Ni are both intuition. Ne is directed outward, towards action and influence. And Ni is directed inward, towards concept and meaning. Ne is always keeping an eye out for potential but for Ni potential isn't out there, but within themselves.
 

INTP

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I'm not sure what all this frameworks stuff is. Ne and Ni are both intuition. Ne is directed outward, towards action and influence. And Ni is directed inward, towards concept and meaning. Ne is always keeping an eye out for potential but for Ni potential isn't out there, but within themselves.

I think that the multiple frameworks thing comes from N being directed towards external world and external world consists of frameworks rather than details when viewed heavily through N and the S comes in abstract form instead of being concrete. Ni on the other hand uses more concrete way of viewing sensations and external world due to Ni pairing with Se, so their approach is more "collect all details and then form an intuitive idea about that". And because the working memory in humans is rather limited, you cant collect all details and yet have strong sense on how different frameworks interact, because in order to see the frameworks enough to be able to work with them properly as wholes, you need to abstract some sensations(leave irrelevant things out).
Ofc Je vs Ji plays a big role in it because Je is more concerned about the concrete rather than the figuring out the root of things by the process of abstraction.
Not to mention that Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti are also really different in terms concretism and abstraction. Te is more concerned by the concrete facts and logic and they abstract things based on F judgments. While Fe is more concerned about concrete matters effecting other people personally, like their mood etc. and the abstraction is done based on logic and reason.
 

Entropic

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NE is multiple frameworks. For instance, a framework is a way of doing things or a set of rules to follow that provide examples, maybe.

A framework in accounting is generally accepted accounting principles.

This doesn't sound like Ne as much as it sounds like Ji, but particularly, Ti. Ne is more about making connections between unrelated phenomena:

Extraverted Intuition would move us to unify our sense impressions with their larger context, thereby creating new options for meaning and response. For example, as we lie our blanket in the sun, perhaps we hear music in the distance. Someone passing by mentions a great restaurant in town. Suddenly we’re thinking: Hey, there must be an amusement part nearby. If it’s on our way to town, we can check out the rides before we look for the restaurant that passerby was talking about. In fact, maybe the guy knows about other places we should consider. Where did he go?

Extraverted Intuitives are right-brain types who deal with their sense impressions by unifying them into larger outward patterns. An ENP physician, for example, may realize, with sudden insight, that several unexplained symptoms are actually part of a single disease. As an Extraverted type, the physician has no doubt that the disease. As an Extraverted type, the physician has no doubt that the disease syndrome really exists. The pattern was always there, waiting for someone to discover it. What’s important now is telling others about the discovery—getting people to see the new model offers more options that the old.

As soon we begin to talk about systems such as frameworks, we end up in the realms of judgement because intuition is irrational, that is, it takes in information and perceives connections in the world as they are. There is no underlying logic or foundation to what is discerned, as much as it is taking in information and observe the world in and of itself, and because it is intuition, understanding intangible connections between that which is physically observable. Judgement, on the other hand, wishes to place things observed into a logical framework in order to make our observations make sense, and in the case of the rational dominant i.e. someone who leads with Ji/Je as their dominant function, they will also apply already known formulae, standards and laws onto the world and wish to shape the world to make it fit the frameworks they've already pre-defined. This is why Jung speaks of the rational type as striving towards a utopian ideal, because the rational type wants the world to live up to certain norms or standards that are, from the perspective of irrationality that is, observing the world as it is without having any pre-conceived notions of how it should be like.

Learning one framework and improving it is NI...or using your imagination to navigate the framework is NI.

Sounds like pure Ji, but mostly Ti. Ni isn't so concerned about frameworks because Ni is an irrational function and it gathers information from the collective unconsciousness. It recognizes archetypal patterns in the world. Improving a framework that is, improving logical understanding, refining an idea of how the world should be, that is the realm of rationality. Of seeking to make sense of something. Ni perceives, it understands through various connections that it can observe, but it does not in itself, seek to improve.

Learning multiple frameworks is NE. ENTP's are known at being good at sales and science. How can this be? Well they tend to learn multiple frameworks and intigrate them.

No. Anyone can learn multiple frameworks.

Example: Electrical engineering is taught and applied according to the framework which is schematics, electricity, etc...

Biology has it's own framework. The two overlap...there is such a thing as bioelectricity. Electrical principles are involved in living organisms...

Seeing how two different unrelated phenomena got something in common and what connects them is Ne. What you described here with these two paragraphs, is just an example of your own Ne-dominant bias which has nothing to do with Ni in itself. Of course Ni types can deal with multiple frameworks. Any body of science deals with multiple frameworks within that science, no matter how specialized you are. Ni isn't per se specialization either.

“Extraverted Intuitives are right-brain types who deal with their sense impressions by unifying them into larger outward patterns. An ENP physician, for example, may realize, with sudden insight, that several unexplained symptoms are actually part of a single disease. As an Extraverted type, the physician has no doubt that the disease. As an Extraverted type, the physician has no doubt that the disease syndrome really exists. The pattern was always there, waiting for someone to discover it. What’s important now is telling others about the discovery—getting people to see the new model offers more options that the old” (225).

“Introverted Intuitives don’t think this way. For INJs, patterns aren’t ‘out there’ in the world, waiting to be discovered. They’re part of us—they way we make sense of the riot of information and energy impinging on our systems. A disease syndrome is a useful construct, but that’s all it is—an aggregate of observations attached to a label, telling us what to see and how to deal with it” (225).

“Introverted Intuition ... tells us that changing our frame of mind can change the world. For example, a recent article advises the parents of a fussy or demanding baby not to describe the fact as difficult but to recognize that such children have vivid, strong, and rich personalities. This is how Introverted Intuition works. The material facts remain the same, but we organize them in a new conceptual pattern that changes their meaning and gives us new options for behavior” (224).

SO an ENTP is more of an inventor who bridges the gap between different sciences if we are just typing him to a high powered NE in science.

You are right in the sense that yes, ENTPs are the most naturally inclined to try to bridge various phenomena together.

But an entp in accoutning would reconcile GAAP, generally accepted accounting principles, to another framework like, international accounting principles.

Hence NE + TI provides for a highly analytical mind that knows the differences and similarities between systems where as NI and TE provides for a highly analytical mind that provides for differences and similarities within a system.

I'm off to see a movie with my pops...let me know what you think about my NE vs. NI thread - I think this is the best way to look at it because the framework is a great way to see how the two differ.

I am only really inclined to think I agree somewhat with this part; I would drop the word "framework" though. It's misleading. It's better to speak about patterns or phenomena than frameworks, because frameworks are first of all logical constructs, not in themselves observable irrational facts e.g. I can observe the sun rise in the morning.
 

GarrotTheThief

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This doesn't sound like Ne as much as it sounds like Ji, but particularly, Ti. Ne is more about making connections between unrelated phenomena:





As soon we begin to talk about systems such as frameworks, we end up in the realms of judgement because intuition is irrational, that is, it takes in information and perceives connections in the world as they are. There is no underlying logic or foundation to what is discerned, as much as it is taking in information and observe the world in and of itself, and because it is intuition, understanding intangible connections between that which is physically observable. Judgement, on the other hand, wishes to place things observed into a logical framework in order to make our observations make sense, and in the case of the rational dominant i.e. someone who leads with Ji/Je as their dominant function, they will also apply already known formulae, standards and laws onto the world and wish to shape the world to make it fit the frameworks they've already pre-defined. This is why Jung speaks of the rational type as striving towards a utopian ideal, because the rational type wants the world to live up to certain norms or standards that are, from the perspective of irrationality that is, observing the world as it is without having any pre-conceived notions of how it should be like.



Sounds like pure Ji, but mostly Ti. Ni isn't so concerned about frameworks because Ni is an irrational function and it gathers information from the collective unconsciousness. It recognizes archetypal patterns in the world. Improving a framework that is, improving logical understanding, refining an idea of how the world should be, that is the realm of rationality. Of seeking to make sense of something. Ni perceives, it understands through various connections that it can observe, but it does not in itself, seek to improve.



No. Anyone can learn multiple frameworks.





Seeing how two different unrelated phenomena got something in common and what connects them is Ne. What you described here with these two paragraphs, is just an example of your own Ne-dominant bias which has nothing to do with Ni in itself. Of course Ni types can deal with multiple frameworks. Any body of science deals with multiple frameworks within that science, no matter how specialized you are. Ni isn't per se specialization either.







You are right in the sense that yes, ENTPs are the most naturally inclined to try to bridge various phenomena together.





I am only really inclined to think I agree somewhat with this part; I would drop the word "framework" though. It's misleading. It's better to speak about patterns or phenomena than frameworks, because frameworks are first of all logical constructs, not in themselves observable irrational facts e.g. I can observe the sun rise in the morning.

The idea that NE is bridging multiple frameworks together isn't my own idea...it is from an mbti web site...lol.

And my dominant function is TE or NI...I type as ENTJ/INTJ more than ENTP.

A framework is an archtype in itself and is probably used losely in the sense of just a way of integrating things. So you can have two frameworks and a third framework for integrating them.

NI does not reach into the collective per se...that is more SI...which Jung noted was more deeper than NI.

NI is the image making function according to Jung. So if you imagine a mountain, a framework, and then things on the mountain, like bushes and rocks, elements of the framework, you are using NI.

But if you imagine a mountain, a framework, and then it reminds you of an ocean, another framework, and then you compare the coral reef to the flora, then you are using NE. Both are image making functions.

Let's not forget that a framework is an archetype too. A net, for example, is a construct that appears in taxes, the galaxy, in nature, and in electronics, so is a spiral, and a proration.
 

GarrotTheThief

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This doesn't sound like Ne as much as it sounds like Ji, but particularly, Ti. Ne is more about making connections between unrelated phenomena:





As soon we begin to talk about systems such as frameworks, we end up in the realms of judgement because intuition is irrational, that is, it takes in information and perceives connections in the world as they are. There is no underlying logic or foundation to what is discerned, as much as it is taking in information and observe the world in and of itself, and because it is intuition, understanding intangible connections between that which is physically observable. Judgement, on the other hand, wishes to place things observed into a logical framework in order to make our observations make sense, and in the case of the rational dominant i.e. someone who leads with Ji/Je as their dominant function, they will also apply already known formulae, standards and laws onto the world and wish to shape the world to make it fit the frameworks they've already pre-defined. This is why Jung speaks of the rational type as striving towards a utopian ideal, because the rational type wants the world to live up to certain norms or standards that are, from the perspective of irrationality that is, observing the world as it is without having any pre-conceived notions of how it should be like.



Sounds like pure Ji, but mostly Ti. Ni isn't so concerned about frameworks because Ni is an irrational function and it gathers information from the collective unconsciousness. It recognizes archetypal patterns in the world. Improving a framework that is, improving logical understanding, refining an idea of how the world should be, that is the realm of rationality. Of seeking to make sense of something. Ni perceives, it understands through various connections that it can observe, but it does not in itself, seek to improve.



No. Anyone can learn multiple frameworks.





Seeing how two different unrelated phenomena got something in common and what connects them is Ne. What you described here with these two paragraphs, is just an example of your own Ne-dominant bias which has nothing to do with Ni in itself. Of course Ni types can deal with multiple frameworks. Any body of science deals with multiple frameworks within that science, no matter how specialized you are. Ni isn't per se specialization either.







You are right in the sense that yes, ENTPs are the most naturally inclined to try to bridge various phenomena together.





I am only really inclined to think I agree somewhat with this part; I would drop the word "framework" though. It's misleading. It's better to speak about patterns or phenomena than frameworks, because frameworks are first of all logical constructs, not in themselves observable irrational facts e.g. I can observe the sun rise in the morning.

here you go...taken from personalityjunky.com

"INTJs and INFJs, by contrast, tend to be more comfortable with working with static concepts and conceptual frameworks. In doing so, INJs are not intentionally closing off their minds. Rather, as we’ve seen, Introverted Intuition, by its very nature, seems to be more convergent and dare I say, analytical, then Ne. One might even suggest, as Lenore Thomson has, that Ni has a stronger left-brained character than Ne does. Hence, INJs are generally more comfortable working with deduction, concepts, and static/”eternal” ideas. Both Plato and Jung are classic examples."

This alludes to the point I made above, still entirely valid and the one I hold,...INTJ's vs. INTP....one tends to work within one framework and the other one tends to span a gamut between multiple frameworks as a product of resisting the urge to adopt a single one - which means they tend to move from one framework to another since they are always fluidly building their own internal framework.
 

GarrotTheThief

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NI and NE will always function according to a framework because no function in itself works without the other 8.

You cannot have NE or NI if you do not have TE and TI and the other functions. Whenever we consider one function we must always consider the others for you cannot define one without knowing the other...they are complimentary.

NE relies on TI to make subtle distinctions between frameworks to build a third subjective framework and NI relies on TE to inform it upon subtle distinctions within one framework based on empirical evidence.

NI is used in improving a system
and NE is used in building a new system.

NE is used in brainstorming many solutions
and NI is used in brainstorming a way to implement one solution.

Speaking generically, and archetypally, an ENTP scientist would come up with seven solutions for a problem, and the INTJ would implement or determine the the best one according to certain constraints..


A framework in itself is not a product of ONE function. It is a thing that exists outside of cognitive processing both as a subjective construct and objective construct. The use and adoption of a framework does not require any thought, feeling, sensing, intuition beyond what a normal human would produce since we all adopt frameworks when we are born and learn to meld with society.

Frameworks are everywhere and in everything and we behave according to frameworks all the time even unconsciously...so it is not a matter of NE and NI involving frameworks but a matter of that frameworks are the penultimate of our existence and therefore a good pivot point for describing how we process information.

Even posting on this message board shows the adoption of a framework.

We could easily substitute the word framework for system, or simply say "method" or "methodology" AGain not a rational thing per se...an artist has a framework based on his intuitions or he just goes according to his gut...

frameworks are not always logical or rational.
 

Entropic

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The idea that NE is bridging multiple frameworks together isn't my own idea...it is from an mbti web site...lol.

So? You made the claim, then it is up to you to defend it.

And my dominant function is TE or NI...I type as ENTJ/INTJ more than ENTP.

The way you seem to think and write doesn't necessarily imply it, either way.

A framework is an archtype in itself and is probably used losely in the sense of just a way of integrating things. So you can have two frameworks and a third framework for integrating them.

Reread what I wrote on my thoughts on the word "framework."

NI does not reach into the collective per se...that is more SI...which Jung noted was more deeper than NI.

This is absolutely incorrect for several reasons. First of all, all of the introverted functions deal with the archetype world, however, only Ni has the most direct link to the collective unconsciousness because it is a) intuition, meaning it deals with content generated by the unconsciousness and b) is introverted, so it deals with the archetype world.

Carl Jung said:
Intuition, in the introverted attitude, is directed upon the inner object, a term we might justly apply to the elements of the unconscious. For the relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, although theirs is a psychological and not a physical reality. Inner objects appear to the intuitive perception as subjective images of things, which, though not met with in external experience, really determine the contents of the unconscious, i.e. the collective unconscious, in the last resort. Naturally, in their per se character, these contents are, not accessible to experience, a quality which they have in common with the outer object. For just as outer objects correspond only relatively with our perceptions of them, so the phenomenal forms of the inner object are also relative; products of their (to us) inaccessible essence and of the peculiar nature of the intuitive function. Like sensation, intuition also has its subjective factor, which is suppressed to the farthest limit in the extraverted intuition, but which becomes the decisive factor in the intuition of the introvert. Although this intuition may receive its impetus from outer objects, it is never arrested by the external possibilities, but stays with that factor which the outer object releases within.

Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation.

Here Jung claims that a) intuition but particularly introverted intuition (Ni), deals with unconscious content and that this unconscious content is primarily generated by being attuned to the collective unconsciousness. In addition to this, while introverted sensation (Si) bears similarities to Ni, Si only deal with the physical innervations i.e. bodily sensations and does not abstract the meaning beyond the physical, Ni does. Hence, Ni is in a sense, deeper, than Si, in that Si still stays within the realms of sensation despite being a "deep" function due to its introverted nature.

NI is the image making function according to Jung. So if you imagine a mountain, a framework, and then things on the mountain, like bushes and rocks, elements of the framework, you are using NI.

Uhm... I get the impression you don't understand how Ni works. Ni is not the same as imagination and Jung referred to imagination as "phantasy" [sic] and is a phenomenon unrelated to the cognitive functions.

But if you imagine a mountain, a framework, and then it reminds you of an ocean, another framework, and then you compare the coral reef to the flora, then you are using NE. Both are image making functions.

Comparison in itself? No. Depends on what aspects you are comparing.

Let's not forget that a framework is an archetype too. A net, for example, is a construct that appears in taxes, the galaxy, in nature, and in electronics, so is a spiral, and a proration.

I still insist using the word "framework" is fallacious because it brings forth the wrong impression of what perception really is about and is a poor choice of words.

here you go...taken from personalityjunky.com

"INTJs and INFJs, by contrast, tend to be more comfortable with working with static concepts and conceptual frameworks. In doing so, INJs are not intentionally closing off their minds. Rather, as we’ve seen, Introverted Intuition, by its very nature, seems to be more convergent and dare I say, analytical, then Ne. One might even suggest, as Lenore Thomson has, that Ni has a stronger left-brained character than Ne does. Hence, INJs are generally more comfortable working with deduction, concepts, and static/”eternal” ideas. Both Plato and Jung are classic examples."

This alludes to the point I made above, still entirely valid and the one I hold,...INTJ's vs. INTP....one tends to work within one framework and the other one tends to span a gamut between multiple frameworks as a product of resisting the urge to adopt a single one - which means they tend to move from one framework to another since they are always fluidly building their own internal framework.

Yeah, so you found a shit description on a shit online site that is making weird and vague allusions to an MBTI theorist without actually explaining what the MBTI theorist is trying to suggest and waters it down to the point it becomes extremely removed from the original source. Lenore Thomson does not allude to "frameworks" but she clearly uses the term "pattern" or alternatively, "perspective", because again, "framework" is a word that is highly misleading. I would therefore encourage you to stop using it; it doesn't capture the point. Similarly, if you are going to discuss "images" that intuition deals with, it is better to actually do so by describing what Jung meant with them i.e. the woman who described as having a snake in her stomach or the man who described vertigo as being shot by an arrow. Just imagining a mountain is not an image that Ni deals with; Ni imagery is primarily subjectively recited and generated as a reaction to external stimulus e.g. when I feel sad, I may describe it as having a hole in my chest. That is Ni imagery.
 

GarrotTheThief

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So? You made the claim, then it is up to you to defend it.



The way you seem to think and write doesn't necessarily imply it, either way.



Reread what I wrote on my thoughts on the word "framework."



This is absolutely incorrect for several reasons. First of all, all of the introverted functions deal with the archetype world, however, only Ni has the most direct link to the collective unconsciousness because it is a) intuition, meaning it deals with content generated by the unconsciousness and b) is introverted, so it deals with the archetype world.



Here Jung claims that a) intuition but particularly introverted intuition (Ni), deals with unconscious content and that this unconscious content is primarily generated by being attuned to the collective unconsciousness. In addition to this, while introverted sensation (Si) bears similarities to Ni, Si only deal with the physical innervations i.e. bodily sensations and does not abstract the meaning beyond the physical, Ni does. Hence, Ni is in a sense, deeper, than Si, in that Si still stays within the realms of sensation despite being a "deep" function due to its introverted nature.



Uhm... I get the impression you don't understand how Ni works. Ni is not the same as imagination and Jung referred to imagination as "phantasy" [sic] and is a phenomenon unrelated to the cognitive functions.



Comparison in itself? No. Depends on what aspects you are comparing.



I still insist using the word "framework" is fallacious because it brings forth the wrong impression of what perception really is about and is a poor choice of words.



Yeah, so you found a shit description on a shit online site that is making weird and vague allusions to an MBTI theorist without actually explaining what the MBTI theorist is trying to suggest and waters it down to the point it becomes extremely removed from the original source. Lenore Thomson does not allude to "frameworks" but she clearly uses the term "pattern" or alternatively, "perspective", because again, "framework" is a word that is highly misleading. I would therefore encourage you to stop using it; it doesn't capture the point. Similarly, if you are going to discuss "images" that intuition deals with, it is better to actually do so by describing what Jung meant with them i.e. the woman who described as having a snake in her stomach or the man who described vertigo as being shot by an arrow. Just imagining a mountain is not an image that Ni deals with; Ni imagery is primarily subjectively recited and generated as a reaction to external stimulus e.g. when I feel sad, I may describe it as having a hole in my chest. That is Ni imagery.


We can always agree to disagree. I still don't think you have made a valid point regarding framework. As for quoting Jung, have you found the quote where intuition in comparison to introverted sensing is limited in reaching the unconscious? It's in his book Modern man in search of his soul.

Either way, that is not the only site that uses the framework example. I think your missing the point here and splitting hairs...

But as I said...we can happily agree to disagree so no big deal.
 

Entropic

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We can always agree to disagree. I still don't think you have made a valid point regarding framework. As for quoting Jung, have you found the quote where intuition in comparison to introverted sensing is limited in reaching the unconscious? It's in his book Modern man in search of his soul.

Either way, that is not the only site that uses the framework example. I think your missing the point here and splitting hairs...

But as I said...we can happily agree to disagree so no big deal.

Yet you didn't bother to contest it, either, by offering why you think there is merit to the view and perspective. And no, I have not read that one, I would be interested if you can provide a quote, though it is not the first time Jung has contradicted himself.

And what other sites uses the word "framework"?

Also, I'm pretty sure I understand you just fine, but the way you frame things does irk me out because I find it to be inaccurate. I also think it's a kind of lame of you to not meet anything I write and then cop out by trying to agree to disagree without having offered anything substantial as a counter-claim but whatever.
 

GarrotTheThief

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Yet you didn't bother to contest it, either, by offering why you think there is merit to the view and perspective. And no, I have not read that one, I would be interested if you can provide a quote, though it is not the first time Jung has contradicted himself.

And what other sites uses the word "framework"?

Also, I'm pretty sure I understand you just fine, but the way you frame things does irk me out because I find it to be inaccurate. I also think it's a kind of lame of you to not meet anything I write and then cop out by trying to agree to disagree without having offered anything substantial as a counter-claim but whatever.

Well I'm sorry for you if irk you but there is just too much to contest...too many random tangents in your post, which are relevant to a degree, albeit random for any useful dialogue on a forum and will just lead to endless random tangents.

For example, where did I say anything about NI not being part of the collective unconscious?
I'm basically saying that NE is good at coming up with a lot of random solutions and NI is useful in narrowing down on one based on constraints. That's why I think you're splitting hairs. I'm not contesting NI gives access to the unconscious...it does, but in everyone. So having NI dom doesn't mean that you have "more" access to it than someone who has it as their 8th function in the stack.

What is accurate and what is inaccurate when it comes to typology is not something your nor I can speak for beyond our opinions here unless of course you have a phd in typology, which many people do...that is why I referenced the site, it is made and supported by people who have degrees in typology.

As for us here...we are not the arbiters of accuracy when it comes to typology.

So again, I'm sorry for you that you feel irked but that is on you...I don't feel irked by you at all...this is a democratic discussion and I did ask for opinions, but if you think your opinion is the be all and end all of accuracy you are as mistaken as you are conflated in that you think you can tell what someone thinks by how they write.

The reason I say that to you is because your writing style is written in a weird and obtuse way by where you state claims as if they are facts that everyone accepts, but they are not.
 

GarrotTheThief

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MBTI Type
ENTJ
Yeah, so you found a shit description on a shit online site that is making weird and vague allusions to an MBTI theorist without actually explaining what the MBTI theorist is trying to suggest and waters it down to the point it becomes extremely removed from the original source. Lenore Thomson does not allude to "frameworks" but she clearly uses the term "pattern" or alternatively, "perspective", because again, "framework" is a word that is highly misleading. I would therefore encourage you to stop using it; it doesn't capture the point. Similarly, if you are going to discuss "images" that intuition deals with, it is better to actually do so by describing what Jung meant with them i.e. the woman who described as having a snake in her stomach or the man who described vertigo as being shot by an arrow. Just imagining a mountain is not an image that Ni deals with; Ni imagery is primarily subjectively recited and generated as a reaction to external stimulus e.g. when I feel sad, I may describe it as having a hole in my chest. That is Ni imagery.

So just to give you an example, TE likes to lead with examples, I want to show the arrogance in the above statement. You disagree with my opinion so you refer to a web site that someone has put a lot of work into, and someone who obviously knows much more about typology than has been demonstrated in some of your posts, so you call the site "shit."

Again, it doesn't bother me, but you cannot blame me for agreeing to disagree with you when your maturity level is so, so very low.

This is why I do not contest your arguments. It is a fruitless endeavor.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Conceptual Framework of Ne

Ne is like a randomized fractal, one that has interacted with the complex, random systems of the external world.

random_fractal_flame_0032_by_thargor6-d4fnt8c.jpg


Carl Jung said:
9. The Extraverted Intuitive Type

Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type….[p. 468]
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Conceptual Framework of Ni

The inner conceptual framework of Ni is much like a pure fractal emanating from a single core point.

Aeires-abstract-digital-art-fractal-Moonlight_Blossoms.jpg

Carl Jung said:
9. The Introverted Intuitive Type

The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and -- in the case of a productive artist-the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle. [p. 509]

If an artist, he reveals extraordinary, remote things in his art, which in iridescent profusion embrace both the significant and the banal, the lovely and the grotesque, the whimsical and the sublime. If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man 'gone wrong', a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for 'psychological' novels.

Although it is not altogether in the line of the introverted intuitive type to make of perception a moral problem, since a certain reinforcement of the rational functions is required for this, yet even a relatively slight differentiation of judgment would suffice to transfer intuitive perception from the purely æsthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from its æsthetic form, although none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem comes into being when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its æsthetic shaping and estimation, but confronts the question: What does this mean for me and for the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or task, either for me or for the world? The pure intuitive who represses judgment or possesses it only under the spell of perception never meets this question fundamentally, since his only problem is the How of perception. He, therefore, finds the moral problem unintelligible, even absurd, and as far as possible forbids his thoughts to dwell upon the disconcerting vision. It is different with the morally orientated intuitive. He concerns himself with the meaning of his vision; he troubles less about its further æsthetic possibilities than about the possible moral effects which emerge from its intrinsic significance. His judgment allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and as a totality, is in some way inter-related with his vision, that [p. 510] it is something which cannot just be perceived but which also would fain become the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken -- it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the 'voice of one crying in the wilderness'.

The introverted intuitive's chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression. This latter quality is a compensation to the thin upper air of the conscious attitude, giving it a certain weight, so that complete 'sublimation' is prevented. But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects. [p. 511]

- - - Updated - - -

I thought it was worth approaching this topic as iNtuitives, and not just as T's.
 

Dopa

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
37
MBTI Type
INTP
Just like Se/Si, Ni is merely a more systematic, organized, processed version of Ne. It's like meta-Ne. Ne is looking out at the world and seeing patterns, possibilities, connections, contrasts.
 

AKA

New member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
7
He starts off describing Ne vs. Ni as observing vs. impressions. I'm currently watching it.


[edit]

Here's another.

 

GarrotTheThief

The Green Jolly Robin H.
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
1,648
MBTI Type
ENTJ
The inner conceptual framework of Ni is much like a pure fractal emanating from a single core point.

Aeires-abstract-digital-art-fractal-Moonlight_Blossoms.jpg



- - - Updated - - -

I thought it was worth approaching this topic as iNtuitives, and not just as T's.

Excellent. I would like to add that the fractals confirm the notion of many frameworks and connections between (NE) and one framework and connections within (NI)....

since fractals themselves are frameworks...one fractal is seemingly random and disparate and bridges external objects, the other fractal is centered around a singular vortex (a single framework).

Thank you.
 

big sexy

New member
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
70
MBTI Type
INfP
Threads about the functions are always people going in circles arguing about their own definitions of the functions, never really agreeing on what a function is supposed to be. It doesn't help that the definitions are often incredibly vague and general.
 

lunalum

Super Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
2,706
MBTI Type
ZNTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Threads about the functions are always people going in circles arguing about their own definitions of the functions, never really agreeing on what a function is supposed to be. It doesn't help that the definitions are often incredibly vague and general.

Theme song for this thread:
 
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