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Linguistic Determinism

Xander

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Right, I'll try to put down my understanding of this, which is imperfect and possibly complete rubbish but it spurred thought so tough.

Language defines reality. Language is used to define reality and as it has been carefully attributed it is safe to say that the words used define the thing they are attributed to.

Language describes reality. Language, although used to define things, is unrelated to reality and exists apart.

There's probably a thousand better ways to put it and hopefully someone here is more of an expert than I. The thought spurred was, do certain types show a preference to one or the other? I certainly tend to find I will question say a person who says they are an INTP or an ENTJ if they are of the belief that language and reality are linked directly.

Which side do you hold to most?
 

BadOctopus

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Not quite sure what you mean, to be honest. Do you mean that our version of reality is shaped by language? Because I agree with that. Not that language has any effect on reality, because reality is objective and exists apart from us. But I do think that our perception of reality is subjective, and is influenced by language.

Linguistics has always fascinated me. I think primarily in words, and when I've taken multiple intelligence tests, I've always scored highly in linguistics. But I know that there are other people who think in pictures (also known as visual thinking). Is their concept of reality different than mine? I imagine it would be. It's interesting to think about.
 

AOA

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Language aids a perceptual outlook of reality.

If you speak in real sentences (like I do) you'll dispel any illusion.

- - - Updated - - -

As I have been doing so in the last several months.
 

Xander

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Consider the term soul. We believe we're superior to other mammals because we have a soul. We can't find it anywhere but we have labelled it and so it becomes part of the social consciousness (if you're into that kind of thinking). Whatever is being observed is obviously unaffected by our definition but many of us mammals proceed like we've nailed it. No need to look back, we labelled it.

It's most prevalent in management circles when they believe that because they have called something culture change that they have changed the culture. An easy trap to my eyes but to theirs I'm overly critical and "think too much".

However it seems that it's an official "thing". Some people operate that way, I had to wonder if it's related to typology somehow as it would seem indicative of a certain way of thinking.
 

miss fortune

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a majority of people think with words as opposed to pictures :shrug:

though labeling horse shit as lavender isn't going to change perception much... there's only so much you can do with language

all of this would bring up questions though, such as would what language is spoken really have much of an effect on things? for instance, if you say the word SKULL in english it sounds kind of like something that a barbarian may wish to drink the blood of those they've killed from, but if you go with spanish it's CALAVERA, which sounds significantly more friendly and pleasant :thinking:

and then it is said that if you repeat something about yourself enough to yourself you end up believing it to be true (depending on how easily you lie to yourself perhaps?)
 

Xander

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a majority of people think with words as opposed to pictures :shrug:

though labeling horse shit as lavender isn't going to change perception much... there's only so much you can do with language

all of this would bring up questions though, such as would what language is spoken really have much of an effect on things? for instance, if you say the word SKULL in english it sounds kind of like something that a barbarian may wish to drink the blood of those they've killed from, but if you go with spanish it's CALAVERA, which sounds significantly more friendly and pleasant :thinking:

and then it is said that if you repeat something about yourself enough to yourself you end up believing it to be true (depending on how easily you lie to yourself perhaps?)

You'd be amazed how important it is at my work that the numbers given to someone in their yearly appraisal are referred to as scores not ratings. As the number doesn't even effect your pay I find little logical reason but they think it helps to keep people positive. Words do have power, especially to those who follow a deterministic path.
Consider this, what stops you killing someone were you sufficiently motivated? Most would reply it's illegal but that only sets out what will happen to you. It does not hamper your ability to continue.
 

miss fortune

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You'd be amazed how important it is at my work that the numbers given to someone in their yearly appraisal are referred to as scores not ratings. As the number doesn't even effect your pay I find little logical reason but they think it helps to keep people positive. Words do have power, especially to those who follow a deterministic path.
Consider this, what stops you killing someone were you sufficiently motivated? Most would reply it's illegal but that only sets out what will happen to you. It does not hamper your ability to continue.

every language has a set of words that's a powder keg waiting for a match as well

of course not killing people often traces back to certain philosophies or religions, which are themselves a collection of words and its funny what you can figure out about their histories through etymology

and before we had writing we had words and we used them to pass down the things that we considered important, changing a word or two over time, a mistranslation or two and you have a war or schism

or of course you might just be referred to as an unfriendly company to work for because someone got their feelings hurt when you called a hat a hat :whistling:
 

Xander

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Possibly the best disparity comes from a recently watched debate including the notable Christopher Hitchens (though his inclusion is not relevant).

If you look at the evolution of man you see certain patterns which indicate design. Ergo there was a designer. That would be using our language to define reality. Where as the reality is, there is indication of design. It is only our comprehension which then extends to a designer.

(At least, I think that sheds some light.)
 

Bush

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For those who aren't in the know: The mapping of language to meaning has a whole field associated with it -- semiotics. Very neat stuff.

I'd venture that an ExxJ may recognize that language doesn't necessarily correlate one-to-one with real things and ideas; but they'd believe that for all intents and purposes it does and so screw it just call the spade a spade and get on with it already
 

Xander

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I'd venture that an ExxJ may recognize that language doesn't necessarily correlate one-to-one with real things and ideas; but they'd believe that for all intents and purposes it does and so screw it just call the spade a spade and get on with it already
Not true. An EJ requires the world around them to obey rules, themselves are free to do whatever they like. They reason it afterwards.
EJ means an extroverted judging function which is the primary function of the type. They organise the world. They, themselves, can vary widely.
 

indra

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You are touching on various subjects from Kant to Wittgenstein.

(Transcedental) Noumenal Analytic + Language Games etc
 

Xander

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You are touching on various subjects from Kant to Wittgenstein.

(Transcedental) Noumenal Analytic + Language Games etc

The thoughts do cross philosophy and also observational comedy.

It fascinates me. So many people can't see the item for the labels they have applied to it. Almost like not seeing your monitor for the number of post-it notes on it.
 

Bush

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Not true. An EJ requires the world around them to obey rules, themselves are free to do whatever they like. They reason it afterwards.
EJ means an extroverted judging function which is the primary function of the type. They organise the world. They, themselves, can vary widely.
The mapping has to happen somewhere along the line, though. Virtually everyone, EJs included, realizes that the word "pencil" doesn't refer to one particular instrument. Lots of people, including EJs, realize that there are words in other languages that don't even map to words (or even phrases) in English, let alone a particular object. Words are also 'overloaded'; a spade is that lil' tool, but also a suit in a deck of cards. Even EJs would be in a world of hurt if they recognized none of this.

Take 'spade' as a tool. The word spade may, to some, (a) refer to merely the collection of molecules that have banded together and have been manufactured into a particular shape that's been regarded over time and experience as suitable for digging small patches of earth, and in our taxonomy, it's one of many instances of a 'tool' ..... or (b) It's a spade. You find it at Home Depot. You dig with it.

It's all about where one places his mental focus -- what he prioritizes (even subconsciously). Both (a) and (b) are, for the most part, true; and people of all types (though not all people) will recognize both to be true. One may prioritize that first line of thought (a), another the other (b). As a definition, (b) is simpler, controlled, and lends itself to an EJ to 'organize.' To the EJ, (a) is way too loose, complex, and 'missing the point'; and so the EJ would prefer (b).

As you say, an EJ may return to (a) only 'after the fact,' since it's only subservient to his priorities. To him, the external world's 'rules' come first (including the funciton of a spade), but he's not necessarily unaware of what lies underneath.


[There's some pun to be made about using a spade to dig deeper, but I cba to make it]
 

Xander

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The mapping has to happen somewhere along the line, though. Virtually everyone, EJs included, realizes that the word "pencil" doesn't refer to one particular instrument. Lots of people, including EJs, realize that there are words in other languages that don't even map to words (or even phrases) in English, let alone a particular object. Words are also 'overloaded'; a spade is that lil' tool, but also a suit in a deck of cards. Even EJs would be in a world of hurt if they recognized none of this.

Take 'spade' as a tool. The word spade may, to some, (a) refer to merely the collection of molecules that have banded together and have been manufactured into a particular shape that's been regarded over time and experience as suitable for digging small patches of earth, and in our taxonomy, it's one of many instances of a 'tool' ..... or (b) It's a spade. You find it at Home Depot. You dig with it.

It's all about where one places his mental focus -- what he prioritizes (even subconsciously). Both (a) and (b) are, for the most part, true; and people of all types (though not all people) will recognize both to be true. One may prioritize that first line of thought (a), another the other (b). As a definition, (b) is simpler, controlled, and lends itself to an EJ to 'organize.' To the EJ, (a) is way too loose, complex, and 'missing the point'; and so the EJ would prefer (b).

As you say, an EJ may return to (a) only 'after the fact,' since it's only subservient to his priorities. To him, the external world's 'rules' come first (including the funciton of a spade), but he's not necessarily unaware of what lies underneath.


[There's some pun to be made about using a spade to dig deeper, but I cba to make it]
I wasn't referring to an EJ as being unaware. Just highlighting that they are externally consistent not internally. They are large and can contain multitudes.

As for the spade, true on both counts. However some will think of a spade when they need to make a hole, others will use something which replicates a spades purpose possibly by using a spade itself (though this is really a sideline in the larger thinking tbf).
 

grey_beard

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Not quite sure what you mean, to be honest. Do you mean that our version of reality is shaped by language? Because I agree with that. Not that language has any effect on reality, because reality is objective and exists apart from us. But I do think that our perception of reality is subjective, and is influenced by language.

Linguistics has always fascinated me. I think primarily in words, and when I've taken multiple intelligence tests, I've always scored highly in linguistics. But I know that there are other people who think in pictures (also known as visual thinking). Is their concept of reality different than mine? I imagine it would be. It's interesting to think about.
Nailed it in one.
INTJ 5w4s for the win! (fist bump) :D
 

grey_beard

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You are touching on various subjects from Kant to Wittgenstein.

(Transcedental) Noumenal Analytic + Language Games etc

"I didn't know you read Kant."
"Can't read, you mean..." /rim-shot>
 

Qlip

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I just started some self study in Semiotics. It's a very in depth subject, apparently I won't get the most out of a textbook until I study some general Philosophy, Kant and Linguistics.

I think partially, but definitely not mostly, in words. I guess that's why I am very much interested in words in connection to meaning, sometimes they can be a struggle for me. I've heard similar things from Fi'ers about not having the language to describe feelings and impressions. I tend to think in the form of concepts in the form of a kind of sensory impressions and a sort of spatial relationship. I also exercise at understanding objects past their labels.

It's obvious to me that language in a way obscures the nature of things. But even more so, the nature of an object and its impact on us in the form of usefulness and relevance to our well-being informs such things. And there is another layer that effects our thoughts as much as, or even more so than language, and that's learned narrative (myth).
 
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