[Ne] Ne Bending Inwards

[Mal12345]

Re: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ons-bend-inward-explaining-discrepancies.html

When Ne bends inwards it becomes more like Ni in the darker sense. When this occurs, Ne optimism turns into pessimism about life and the future in general. Ne bent inwards is a depressive function. It is the source of Schizotypal personality disorder from which the INTP seems to suffer more than any other type.

Ne bent inwards, I submit, is the source of INFP Stephen King's horror novels.

 

[TaylorS]

What would Se "bent inward" look like?

 

[Mal12345]

What would Se "bent inward" look like?

Since certain trolls on this forum are giving me guff about the phrase 'bent inward,' I've changed it to "introverted," a term everybody is already comfortable with.

When Se-aux introverts it becomes like Si. Se is an expansive function, it seeks outwardly for more real-world experiences. When introverted, Se becomes satisfied with what it has already achieved, it no longer seeks more comfort, more fun, more pleasure, more experience, but instead, reflects with pleasure on what it already has.

 

[senza tema]

So how come Ne-aux is totally depressing and Se-aux is happy and content and zen? Wouldn't "Ne turned inward" develop the same kind of satisfaction and contentment with the ideas already present in the environment and develop some kind of tranquil, self-aware appreciation of those things instead of insatiably seeking more?

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Since certain trolls on this forum are giving me guff about the phrase 'bent inward,' I've changed it to "introverted," a term everybody is already comfortable with.

When Se-aux introverts it becomes like Si. Se is an expansive function, it seeks outwardly for more real-world experiences. When introverted, Se becomes satisfied with what it has already achieved, it no longer seeks more comfort, more fun, more pleasure, more experience, but instead, reflects with pleasure on what it already has.

My isfp friend who introverted too much was moody, contemplative, and definitely not happy. She was consumed with selfish and sinful fantasies.

That's just been my limited experience.

So how come Ne-aux is totally depressing and Se-aux is happy and content and zen? Wouldn't "Ne turned inward" develop the same kind of satisfaction and contentment with the ideas already present in the environment and develop some kind of tranquil, self-aware appreciation of those things instead of insatiably seeking more?

If the Ne turned inward was balanced by enough other extraverted functions. It's all about balance.

 

[Mal12345]

So how come Ne-aux is totally depressing and Se-aux is happy and content and zen? Wouldn't "Ne turned inward" develop the same kind of satisfaction and contentment with the ideas already present in the environment and develop some kind of tranquil, self-aware appreciation of those things instead of insatiably seeking more?

I understand your question to be, why is Se-aux introverted more comfortable while Ne-aux introverted is less comfortable? Why does Ne-aux introvert to become dark, brooding, mysterious, and uncomfortable with reality, whereas Se introverted is more reflective and comfortable with itself?

Because Ne is a different kind of function from Se in terms of motivation. Ne is a theoretical and creative function. Se escapes from reality into actualizing subjective fantasies. When Ne is flipped on its head, it becomes a dark, brooding, and negative escape from reality. When Se is flipped on its head, it becomes satisfied with what it has and doesn't seek more and more never-ending attempts to fill the emptiness growing inside.

 

[Mal12345]

My isfp friend who introverted too much was moody, contemplative, and definitely not happy. She was consumed with selfish and sinful fantasies.

That's just been my limited experience.

That's just Se in general, although as more of a slave to Fi in this case there will be internal conflict regarding those Se-aux fantasies. Se-aux wants to slip into fantasy, Fi-dom wants to pull Se back. This may lead to the ISFP becoming frozen with indecision at times, as in the 'angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other' scenario.

 

[INTP]

Ne bent inwards is a depressive function. It is the source of Schizotypal personality disorder from which the INTP seems to suffer more than any other type.

What do you base this statement on? Because honestly, it seems more like lack of Fe: "Over time, children learn to interpret social cues and respond appropriately but for unknown reasons this process does not work well for people with this disorder." -wiki

Ofc there are some paranoid/etc components with schizotypal, but the source of them is from external world(NeFe not working correctly) and then these "behind the scenes" things perceived in external world(Ne) is rationalized(Ti) with faulty logic, or perhaps the logic is correct, but it follows what dysfunctional NeFe say.

So yes it involves some Ne and introversion, but the introversion comes from thinking, not intuition.

My isfp friend who introverted too much was moody, contemplative, and definitely not happy. She was consumed with selfish and sinful fantasies.

That sounds more right because ISFPs introverted functions are NiFi. I dont think i would be far from the truth if i guessed that these "sinful fantasies" revolved around sensory pleasures(sexual or stuff like act of killing someone etc)?

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

What do you base this statement on? Because honestly, it seems more like lack of Fe: "Over time, children learn to interpret social cues and respond appropriately but for unknown reasons this process does not work well for people with this disorder." -wiki

Ofc there are some paranoid/etc components with schizotypal, but the source of them is from external world(NeFe not working correctly) and then these "behind the scenes" things perceived in external world(Ne) is rationalized(Ti) with faulty logic, or perhaps the logic is correct, but it follows what dysfunctional NeFe say.

So yes it involves some Ne and introversion, but the introversion comes from thinking, not intuition.




That sounds more right because ISFPs introverted functions are NiFi. I dont think i would be far from the truth if i guessed that these "sinful fantasies" revolved around sensory pleasures(sexual or stuff like act of killing someone etc)?

Killing? no. Not isfp females. Unless the are really psycho. That's more an NT thang i'd guess.

Ni and Fi are everyone's introverted functions. I assert that you can be slightly reasonably sure of someone's dominant and aux functions, but by the time they are developing their tert function, etc., they are getting to be teenagers or at least 10-ish. And life intervenes here, influencing those other functions. In short, there can be no set line-up per type, though there might be patterns, yes. There are always patterns and averages.

 

[Mal12345]

What do you base this statement on? Because honestly, it seems more like lack of Fe: "Over time, children learn to interpret social cues and respond appropriately but for unknown reasons this process does not work well for people with this disorder." -wiki

Ofc there are some paranoid/etc components with schizotypal, but the source of them is from external world(NeFe not working correctly) and then these "behind the scenes" things perceived in external world(Ne) is rationalized(Ti) with faulty logic, or perhaps the logic is correct, but it follows what dysfunctional NeFe say.

So yes it involves some Ne and introversion, but the introversion comes from thinking, not intuition.

It's not the paranoia, or perhaps it could be. But I'm specifically talking about this:

Schizotypal Personality Disorder Symptoms | Psych Central
"People with this disorder may be unusually superstitious or preoccupied with paranormal phenomena that are outside the norms of their subculture."

 

[INTP]

Ni and Fi are everyone's introverted functions. I assert that you can be slightly reasonably sure of someone's dominant and aux functions, but by the time they are developing their tert function, etc., they are getting to be teenagers or at least 10-ish. And life intervenes here, influencing those other functions. In short, there can be no set line-up per type, though there might be patterns, yes. There are always patterns and averages.

Well NiFi are everyones functions in socionics(and in some socionics like type theories like beebes archetype theory), but not in MBTI or in jungian typology. In jungs theory NTSF are the functions of everyone and different types come from I/E of these functions and preferences to habitually use one or two of these functions over other functions.

Functions exist in the psyche even before they are developed to the point that their contents reach consciousness. If we are talking about averages of function development, its usually more like aux in teens, tert in early adulthood and inferior somewhere between 35-50's. But the thing is that not everyone ever develops much of the other functions than just dom and some might start to develop their inferior even in their 20's.

The theory of function order comes from the idea that judging functions represent opposite things in the psyche, and perceiving functions do the same. Like if you are logically analyzing something, it guides you away from analyzing it from personal point of view. Now if a kid learns that its best to analyze via logic instead of using personal point of view like how something makes me feel, or whats the atmosphere you feel in a situation, he will push all the F stuff in the unconscious and make a habit out of T. Or if someone is focusing on concrete perceptions about the external world, it takes the focus out of what might lie behind what is seen and if a person learns that its best not to focus on "imaginary" stuff, thats what he will do and push the imaginary stuff in the unconscious and make a habit out of S. Now we have a person whose dom-aux axis is thinking and sensing, but you can approach both thinking and sensing from different points of view, by the subjective factors or objective ones. I and E are opposites in the same way as T and F(or S and N) are. If you focus on the external world and adjust yourself according to it, its away from adjusting yourself according to subjective factors, however if you focus on the subjective factor when using thinking for example, you can focus on the objective aspects when using sensing to give you that more healthy balance. This is also why the inferior gets the opposite I/E from dom and tert opposite from aux.

But ofc some people, like ISFP for example, might be stuck in his Ni and use it more than his Se at some points of his life, but that doesent change type, it just tells something about the mental functioning of the person, which in these cases is usually unhealthy.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Well NiFi are everyones functions in socionics(and in some socionics like type theories like beebes archetype theory), but not in MBTI or in jungian typology. In jungs theory NTSF are the functions of everyone and different types come from I/E of these functions and preferences to habitually use one or two of these functions over other functions.

Functions exist in the psyche even before they are developed to the point that their contents reach consciousness. If we are talking about averages of function development, its usually more like aux in teens, tert in early adulthood and inferior somewhere between 35-50's. But the thing is that not everyone ever develops much of the other functions than just dom and some might start to develop their inferior even in their 20's.

The theory of function order comes from the idea that judging functions represent opposite things in the psyche, and perceiving functions do the same. Like if you are logically analyzing something, it guides you away from analyzing it from personal point of view. Now if a kid learns that its best to analyze via logic instead of using personal point of view like how something makes me feel, or whats the atmosphere you feel in a situation, he will push all the F stuff in the unconscious and make a habit out of T. Or if someone is focusing on concrete perceptions about the external world, it takes the focus out of what might lie behind what is seen and if a person learns that its best not to focus on "imaginary" stuff, thats what he will do and push the imaginary stuff in the unconscious and make a habit out of S. Now we have a person whose dom-aux axis is thinking and sensing, but you can approach both thinking and sensing from different points of view, by the subjective factors or objective ones. I and E are opposites in the same way as T and F(or S and N) are. If you focus on the external world and adjust yourself according to it, its away from adjusting yourself according to subjective factors, however if you focus on the subjective factor when using thinking for example, you can focus on the objective aspects when using sensing to give you that more healthy balance. This is also why the inferior gets the opposite I/E from dom and tert opposite from aux.

But ofc some people, like ISFP for example, might be stuck in his Ni and use it more than his Se at some points of his life, but that doesent change type, it just tells something about the mental functioning of the person, which in these cases is usually unhealthy.

I respect you knowledge in the subject of typology for sure.

But that is not what I know to be true. It is not my theory.

 

[INTP]

It's not the paranoia, or perhaps it could be. But I'm specifically talking about this:

Schizotypal Personality Disorder Symptoms | Psych Central
"People with this disorder may be unusually superstitious or preoccupied with paranormal phenomena that are outside the norms of their subculture."

Yea, but even if they may be that way in some cases, the characteristics are

ICD definition is:

A disorder characterized by eccentric behavior and anomalies of thinking and affect which resemble those seen in schizophrenia, though no definite and characteristic schizophrenic anomalies have occurred at any stage. There is no dominant or typical disturbance, but any of the following may be present:

Inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);

Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric or peculiar;

Poor rapport with others and a tendency to withdraw socially;

Odd beliefs or magical thinking, influencing behavior and inconsistent with subcultural norms;

Suspiciousness or paranoid ideas;

Obsessive ruminations without inner resistance, often with dysmorphophobic, sexual or aggressive contents;

Unusual perceptual experiences including somatosensory (bodily) or other illusions, depersonalization or derealization;

Vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, over-elaborate or stereotyped thinking, manifested by odd speech or in other ways, without gross incoherence;

Occasional transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions, auditory or other hallucinations and delusion-like ideas, usually occurring without external provocation.

Millon has proposed two subtypes for the disorder(besides being "pure"):

Insipid schizotypal:
A structural exaggeration of the passive-detached pattern. It includes schizoid, depressive, dependent features.

Traits:
Sense of strangeness and nonbeing; overtly drab, sluggish, inexpressive; internally bland, barren, indifferent, and insensitive; obscured, vague, and tangential thoughts.

Timorous schizotypal :
A structural exaggeration of the active-detached pattern. It includes avoidant, negativistic (passive-aggressive) features.

Traits:
Warily apprehensive, watchful, suspicious, guarded, shrinking, deadens excess sensitivity; alienated from self and others; intentionally blocks, reverses, or disqualifies own thoughts.

So what you were saying at OP is that all of this comes from Ne bent inwards. You see now how it might be a bit more complex and cant be explained like that or completely with any sort of function explanation?

 

[INTP]

I respect you knowledge in the subject of typology for sure.

But that is not what I know to be true. It is not my theory.

But how can you be sure that you "know"? Because it goes against my own experiences and against what respectable people say about typology.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

But how can you be sure that you "know"? Because it goes against my own experiences and against what respectable people say about typology.

Dude. I've already spent a ton of time and thinking on typology and functions. Read Jung, and the functions people. I started a thread about it...Also, one of them, barrens?, says the functions are developed at earlier times than you quoted.

But, really, it's all conjecture eh?

 

[Mal12345]

It looks like some people are just so attached to their boxes that they are very slow to change. They will pull every trick they can in order to avoid the cognitive dissonance required to grow intellectually away from old thinking habits. Perhaps some day I will be "respectable" enough to be influential, but since "respectable" is socially or individually subjective, more than likely I won't be respectable in the right way, whatever that means subjectively. Objectivity is respectable only when it appeals to something subjective. We attach to our gurus like a baby latched on to its mommy's nipple. Or at least, some of us do; some of us have moved out of the guru stage, for example, yours truly.

When you finally grow out of the guru stage you will make an interesting discovery: you will discover that you had never really stopped creating, but that you were only afraid to make your creations conscious in order to avoid insulting your dead omniscient guru archetype.

It turns out that all the so-called "shadow functions" (not to be confused with inferior functions), being simply inverted (but not opposed) to your top four functions, are under-used functions. It's simply a matter of learning more about human cognition to find out what role they play in consciousness and behavior.