• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Doubting N

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
iNtution *is* perceiving something.
Patterns and insinuations from the outside.
But patterns and insinuations on the inside too.

Aha, I think we're getting somewhere. I see patterns to be inside the mind, and outside it is a big chaos that is defined by the mind. So, it is important to think that world as it is has patterns that are definite and not debatable? I mean, we call square a square, but all squares are slightly different and are categorized only for convenience.

When people use the word intuition in an MBTI context, they're talking about recognition of higher level patterns than merely "this shape is different than that." If you want to call it a low level intuitive process, I don't think anyone's going to object.

Well, it must start somewhere small. Except that feeling and sensing seem to start with full volume on babies.
 

Ilah

New member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
274
MBTI Type
INTJ
I agree that intuition is a hard thing to understand and explain. We grow up learning about our senses and our feelings and thinking. The names and basic ideas are familiar to us. We have the language and terms to talk about this things.

We are taught the different ways we can sense things and what they are called. We are taught the specifics of of individual senses, red v. blue, sweet v. sour, hot v. cold, quiet v. loud. Sensing becomes familiar and comfortable and understandable.

Intuition, is not really talked about with children or discussed in classes. When we intuit, we don't even know we are intuiting because it has not been given a name. We haven't been given words to describe it like we have with our senses or feelings so we don't know what to call it. And people rarely talk about it. People will say "what do you think?" "how do you feel?" but not "what do you intuit?"

I have learned to identify it almost by process of elimination. If I have strong feelings or ideas about something and it isn't supported by logic and cannot be explained by emotion, it is probably intuition. If I feel very strongly about something but I can't give any explaination why, that is probably intuition. If I don't know where an idea or thought came from, it is probably intuition.

Ilah
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
If S is basing things on things which are apparent now then N is basing things upon how it fits into all you have learned before as one giant package.

As all things are relative to something else and parallels are seen all over the place then isn't intuition the king of thought processes?

:)

Well at least if we could get the details down it would be.... :(

Perhaps you need to lose the association with "intuition" as in the more well known form where people act like psychics and get everything wrong because they ignored the context and used the force their intuition.
 

alcea rosea

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
3,658
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Intuition is very different from of rational or logical reasoning. Rational and logical reasoning is done conciously step by step and intuition is brain functioning without you noticing it. It's a process that you are unaware of when it happens. You are only aware of the product (= a thought, a gut feeling etc.) of that process. so, intuition is subconscious. I think the products of intuition can be trusted as much as logical or rational thinkin because there are pitfalls in rational and logical thinking too.

My definition of intuition might not fit with the MBTI one.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
And people rarely talk about it. People will say "what do you think?" "how do you feel?" but not "what do you intuit?"

Good point.

Perhaps you need to lose the association with "intuition" as in the more well known form where people act like psychics and get everything wrong because they ignored the context and used the force their intuition.

Very much trying not to associate them. Its hard not to (damn intuition)

Feeling in babies? I think you're mixing nomenclatures.

WTF, it isn't feeling based? Don't confuse me more!!! :) All they do is value judgments... "I feel hungry, I cry" "I feel tired, I sleep"
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
Michael Scott. Q.E.D:
N is pattern recognition

Realizing and interpreting interrelationships between otherwise unrelated elements

Accuracy is incidental. Configuring accuracy is a facet of intelligence. This is typically the disconnect most associate between positive intelligence and iNtuition. In truth, they are only causally linked.

iNtuition is fundamentally opaque. Mechanical tuning sharpens clarity.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
WTF, it isn't feeling based? Don't confuse me more!!! :) All they do is value judgments... "I feel hungry, I cry" "I feel tired, I sleep"

Yeah, I don't really consider that decision-making but just following instinct. A baby doesn't decide to cry or decide to eat. It just does. When a person is asked to assess a situation and make some type of determination, they need to evaluate their feelings (F) or the parameters assigned to solving the task (T).
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
If S is basing things on things which are apparent now then N is basing things upon how it fits into all you have learned before as one giant package.
No, that's what Ti does. Intuition discovers new things which are unseen, basing its postulations on what is seen. Ti then configures those theories according to what is known. Often the hypotheses are built on several of Thinking's forumulas, but even still, intuition bothers not with what already is except as a launch pad.

As all things are relative to something else and parallels are seen all over the place then isn't intuition the king of thought processes?
The relations are often only percieved -- not actually there. Intuition isn't billed as an expert on reality, nor even is Sensing per se. Reality and perception are not inherently linked.

My point is, the connections are often imaginary.

:)
Well at least if we could get the details down it would be.... :(
Night said it best. Eventually Thinking steps in to delete those ideas whose times have passed.

NTs are typically portrayed as more intelligent only because of the famous ones: Feynman, Einstein, Socrates.... I know plenty of dumbass NTs. Again like Night said; "configuring accuracy is a facet of intelligence." or however he said it.

Intuition does not involve pattern analysis. It's simply the awareness that a pattern or connection is present. The intuitor who doesn't analyze the patterns he knows of may often be able to predict the next event, without knowing why he knew.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
Shit, this is really more difficult than it seems... Makes me wanna go NT: "Words should have definite meanings. No word shall mean two different things!"

Yeah, I don't really consider that decision-making but just following instinct. A baby doesn't decide to cry or decide to eat. It just does. When a person is asked to assess a situation and make some type of determination, they need to evaluate their feelings (F) or the parameters assigned to solving the task (T).

So instinct is NOT a part of the same structure as the functions of MBTI? I am sure that whatever functions the human mind has, they need to start from animal instincts.

Those are value judgments?

Yes, why not? I feel hungry, it is best for me to eat.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Shit, this is really more difficult than it seems... Makes me wanna go NT: "Words should have definite meanings. No word shall mean two different things!"

So instinct is NOT a part of the same structure as the functions of MBTI? I am sure that whatever functions the human mind has, they need to start from animal instincts.

I think the problem in the first paragraph answers the problem in the second. Who has authority to say what is part of MBTI and what isn't? It's easy to do from far away, but hard to do up close when you get into abstract, picky questions. I was telling you what I thought. I'm not a representative of MBTI (as if that would settle the matter). I don't think MBTI was intended to apply to infants, so it doesn't make much sense. Trying to force everything into an MBTI framework (babies, animals, countries, whatever) is more of a word game than anything meaningful and significant. Who cares how you define babies' behaviors? Call it whatever you want as long as you're staying faithful to what's out there.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
My point is, the connections are often imaginary.

Intuition does not involve pattern analysis. It's simply the awareness that a pattern or connection is present. The intuitor who doesn't analyze the patterns he knows of may often be able to predict the next event, without knowing why he knew.

Good stuff. Still feeling hazy about if I have the concept, but getting closer...
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
Trying to force everything into an MBTI framework (babies, animals, countries, whatever) is more of a word game than anything meaningful and significant. Who cares how you define babies' behaviors? Call it whatever you want as long as you're staying faithful to what's out there.

I care. To me it is important to get a whole picture, or as whole as possible. If one theory doesn't cut it, I will apply the next into that missing part.
 

disregard

mrs
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
7,826
MBTI Type
INFP
WTF, it isn't feeling based? Don't confuse me more!!! :) All they do is value judgments... "I feel hungry, I cry" "I feel tired, I sleep"
Yeah, I don't really consider that decision-making but just following instinct. A baby doesn't decide to cry or decide to eat. It just does.
nolla said:
All they do is value judgments... "I feel hungry, I cry" "I feel tired, I sleep"
Those are value judgments?
Yes, why not? I feel hungry, it is best for me to eat.
"I feel tired, I sleep." (which is what babies do) is not a value judgment, as there is no decision-making process, as Edahn mentioned.

That is why I said "those are value judgments?"

Because you didn't initially say "I feel tired; it would be best for me to sleep," because babies obviously can't reason like that.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I care. To me it is important to get a whole picture, or as whole as possible. If one theory doesn't cut it, I will apply the next into that missing part.

Okay. Personally, I don't understand how classifying babies as T or F really helps you understand what babies do any more than you already do. I get that you want a theory to be comprehensive, but this theory concerns the classification of personality. I don't even think of babies as having personalities. Parents like to project personalities onto their kids "oh, he's so patient" or "he's so grumpy" but I think it's a load of ass. Look at the questions used to split Ts and Fs. How would that work in the context of babies?

"I enjoy debate."
[baby poops]

"I care about my friends."
[baby looks at you stupidly and poops some more]

"I take pleasure in analyzing problems."
[baby cries and throws up all over you]

"Thank you."
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
No no, I'm not expecting it to be any more magical than feeling or sensing.

I see patterns to be a conclusion, a result of thinking. Convince me that it isn't thinking. How can I know when a pattern is coming from "out there" as intuition, and not as a result of the thinking process? Intuition should be opposite of sensing, but similar in a way it gives me information of the world, right? So, how does this information come to me? I have eyes, so I see. Is intuition a different way to use that visual information? I don't clearly see how intuition could work in the role of sensing. Or in a similar way...
Do you think of the individual functions as operating in isolation to each other? I don't perceive the clear boundaries this suggests. The actual experience of cognition to me is more like a synthesis of many functions at one time with certain ones being given more weight. How do you experience one function without it being intermingled with the others?

ISTPs can be confused for INTs because they analyze using Ti and think in terms of systems and relationships, but the content they choose tends to be more observable and concrete. I don't understand iNtuition to be just observing patterns, but being at home in the world of the abstract. It is the ability to *know* without requiring what is tangible. From an F perspective it could include being able to glimpse the world through someone else's eyes. This is accomplished in part through recognizing their patterns, but focuses on those aspects of the patterns that cannot be measured absolutely. A Sensor can be quite effective in interpreting patterns in facial expression and gesture and connecting those to certain behaviors. The iNtuitive will become more aware of the person's most probably internal motivations (that aspect that cannot be observed in concrete terms.) For a T they will apply connections and patterns to abstract concepts. Theoretical physics (like examining String Theory) is a home for T based iNtuition, while the application and design that results from theory (such as engineering) is a home for Sensing based pattern and design. The ST can prove the patterns by building an object that demonstrates the truth of these, while the NT can construct a theory whose patterns remain internally consistent.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Here's a metaphor that might demonstrate how the iNtuitive vs. Sensor makes connections. (The metaphor is only useful if not taken too literally)

Observe a lake. Sensing views the waves, the colors of light that reflect off the water, the pattern of strong and weak waves as they come to the shore. Every detail is observed, measured, verified. That which can be seen and known is most valued and used as data for forming connections. iNtuition views the waves and asks what they imply about the content of the lake. How deep is the lake? What is the nature between what is seen on the surface and what lies beneath this? Hypotheses are created with varying degrees of certainty.

Sensing and iNtuition work as counterbalances that inform and challenge each other about the nature of reality. iNtuition creates plausible outlines of how everything connects together, both the seen and unseen. Sensing fills in the details by connecting specific aspects of concrete data. Sensing starts with the details and forms measured connections, while iNtuition thinks in terms of plausible connections based on universal principles and tests these against the details.
 
Top