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The Perfect Middle of a Trait.

FFF

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I just read about this in THIS BOOK based on the five-factor model of personality.

Anyway, it presents with a wonderful graph involving what looks like an upside-down bell curve. The Y-axis is degree of consistency on a trait and the X-axis is level of the trait (low to high).

So what does this mean? Using extroversion as an example, if someone scores very low or high on this, it's pretty much definite that they consistently like extroverted or introverted stuff. However, if someone scores as a perfect ambivert (50 out of 100), this could come from two extreme results and anything inbetween. One extreme would be nothing but middle answers on all questions having to do with this trait. The other extreme would be the result of 50% lowest answers and 50% highest answers.

With the MBTI, people are often undecided about a trait, and now I see that this could very possibly be the result of being moderate with a trait, or it could be the result of bouncing between both pretty regularly.

With extroversion you would have either someone who likes to switch between larger social gatherings and solitude, or someone who doesn't like too much of either one and prefers having a one to four friends and family members around most of the time.
 

FFF

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A little added example for clarity.

Joe scored a 50 on extroversion out of 100. Bob scored a 90. Joe's result came from a balance of 0's and 100's. Bob's result came as a balance of 80's and 100's. The 0's and 100's are quite far from 50, but the 80's and 100's aren't too far from 90. This helps demonstrate how the higher and lower scores absolutely must have more consistency than middle scores.
 

Jack Flak

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Test results don't match actual type much of the time, the margin of error is huge, they're unreliable, stop trusting them. And naturally ignore the extraneous percentages.
 

FFF

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Test results don't match actual type much of the time, the margin of error is huge, they're unreliable, stop trusting them. And naturally ignore the extraneous percentages.

The five-factor approach generally gives you a number and sorts you into either 3 or 5 categories per trait. The MBTI is about forcing you into one category so there is only consistent results for about 50% of people.

There was a test designed for the five-factor approach called the NEO PI-R. I bet they did a lot of work on it to get it consistent and as accurate as possible. I took a class in psychological test design, so I know about all that stuff.

My point didn't have anything to do with testing, though. It was that a person can be situational or consistent with a trait, and that the more towards either pole a trait is, the more likely it'll be consistent through all situations. Someone as introverted as possible will be blatantly introverted in all situations.

I have a friend who to me seems really outgoing. However, I was talking to a mutual friend about him, and he said that he's quite an introvert. I was like, "What? No way." Then he went on to emphasize how he likes to spend a lot of time playing Nintendo by himself. I never knew he liked doing that. All I knew of him was the extremely bold and talkative person that would strike up a conversation with anybody effectively. So, now I would conclude that he'd probably score as an ambivert, but he bounces between socialness and solitude quite comfortably rather than between consistently moderate on the extroversion scale.
 

Ilah

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One of my pet peaves about some personality test are that they doesn't determain the independant strength of each trait, just their strengths relative to each other.

Take the example of someone who is close on F and T.

It could be because both F and T are very strong. (Third or Fourth trait is developed more strongly than usual.)

It could also be becuase both F and T are very week. (Dominant or Secondary trait is weeker than normal.)

There is a big difference between these two.

Ilah
 

Jack Flak

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One of my pet peaves about some personality test are that they doesn't determain the independant strength of each trait, just their strengths relative to each other.

Take the example of someone who is close on F and T.

It could be because both F and T are very strong. (Third or Fourth trait is developed more strongly than usual.)

It could also be becuase both F and T are very week. (Dominant or Secondary trait is weeker than normal.)

There is a big difference between these two.

Ilah

Which trait do these people...how shall I say...have a preference for?
 

Delphyne

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At tests I normally score as INTP or INFP. T and F are very close. The questions of these tests are build on assumptions which are often not true of everyone with that particular preference. For example, there´s a question about what you dislike more in other people. If they are too insensitive or too emotional. Is my T more developed because I pick too emotional? I don´t think so. My preference and my values are Fi. Te comes up if I´m stressed, it´s not developed.
 

FFF

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Which does he prefer?

When people are around he prefers to be social, but I guess there are also times when he likes sitting around playing his Nintendo as opposed to seeking out company. The preference is situational.
 

Jack Flak

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When people are around he prefers to be social, but I guess there are also times when he likes sitting around playing his Nintendo as opposed to seeking out company. The preference is situational.

Most people are like that, I think. But I only know a minority of all people.
 

Ilah

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I was posting mine as a hypothetical example, not thinking of specific people.

The point of my post was not figuring out what type an inbetween person was. I was thinking about what a person who is in the exact middle might look like. They could have a highly developed sense of logic, yet still be very in tune with their feelings and other people's feelings. They could have difficulty with even simple logic, but also be out of touch with their own feelings and unable to respond properly to other people's feelings. These are the extreme examples, many people in the middle might have an average ability in both traits.

This is why I think the sytem brakes down when it comes to people in the middle. Not because it can't classify what they "really" are, but because it doesn't tell you if the scored in the middle because they were good at using both or bad at using both.

Ilah
 

Jack Flak

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This is why I think the sytem brakes down when it comes to people in the middle. Not because it can't classify what they "really" are, but because it doesn't tell you if the scored in the middle because they were good at using both or bad at using both.

Ilah
System was already broken though. It doesn't tell you if ones self-image is not based in reality, nor if they fail to understand questions, nor if questions were relevant to this person. What do you think the margin of error is for each preference? Has to be at least 20% imo.
 

Delphyne

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The point of my post was not figuring out what type an inbetween person was. I was thinking about what a person who is in the exact middle might look like. They could have a highly developed sense of logic, yet still be very in tune with their feelings and other people's feelings. They could have difficulty with even simple logic, but also be out of touch with their own feelings and unable to respond properly to other people's feelings. These are the extreme examples, many people in the middle might have an average ability in both traits.
Ilah

Most people are able to use all eight functions. Feelers don´t feel the right answer to mathematical questions and Thinkers don´t react all logical to people they care about. The dominant function is the one where your values reside and which you will prefer throughout your life. An inbetween person would be someone wo hasn´t developed a preference. That means he´s not good at using both, because you can only develop a function if you decide against it´s opposite function.
 

Jack Flak

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Most people are able to use all eight functions. Feelers don´t feel the right answer to mathematical questions and Thinkers don´t react all logical to people they care about. The dominant function is the one where your values reside and which you will prefer throughout your life. An inbetween person would be someone wo hasn´t developed a preference. That means he´s not good at using both, because you can only develop a function if you decide against it´s opposite function.
If you couldn't use all eight functions you'd have to be considered mentally disabled. I honestly don't remember if someone else said it or I came up with it, but I see there being four functions, within each a preference for inward or outward focus.
 

redacted

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I honestly don't remember if someone else said it or I came up with it, but I see there being four functions, within each a preference for inward or outward focus.

exactly :)

i always score borderline T/F, and it's because i'm scoring lots of 100s and 0s. i have very strong Fe and Ti.

no test is going to be accurate if it scores T against F and S against N. everyone uses N, F, T, and S. the tests should try to figure out introversion vs. extroversion for those traits and figure out the dominant function. no more information is needed.
 

FFF

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Jack, I agree that paper and pencil testing isn't always the best. I often wonder what it's like for other people of different types and of lower intelligences to be filling out those tests. Can we really trust everyone's answers about themselves even when they're trying to be honest?
 

Delphyne

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Jack, I agree that paper and pencil testing isn't always the best. I often wonder what it's like for other people of different types and of lower intelligences to be filling out those tests. Can we really trust everyone's answers about themselves even when they're trying to be honest?
How much intelligence do you need to answer questions like “I prefer x or y”, “I consider myself x or y”, “I am more comfortable with x or y” and so on?

I agree, people can deceive themselves, but tests are not only fallible because human beings are. Personalities are more complex than tests can capture. Tests can´t give you absolute values, only probabilities. If you score 80 percent T and 20 percent F, you don´t have 80 percent T and 20 percent F, you just have a 80 percent probability of being T over F.
 

FFF

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I think less intelligent people might answer based on recent occurrences or how they're feeling at the time, rather than trying to figure out what is the normal pattern for them.
 
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