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Why do others hate INFJs?

Eilonwy

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Do you mean I should give credit to [MENTION=24829]Corn Dispenser[/MENTION]?
[MENTION=24829]Corn Dispenser[/MENTION] I :heart: you!

or you think I live in Montana/Kansas right now? :laugh:

What I could gave off the 505 as in Breaking Bad Albuquerque. But I'm not too big of a fan of that show. (I watched it in its entirety though, so glad that season 6 was an internet joke) :shrug:
You obviously aren't from the midwest because it's Nebraska that's corn country. Kansas is wheat. No idea about Montana.
/Ti taking things too seriously and besides, I'm from Kansas. :D

/lame attempt at humor
 

Z Buck McFate

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(I'm not even sure this was aimed at me, but in case it was. :) )

I think that this is also Coriolis's point: not that INTJs are special, but instead that other types would know when to let this thing go.

Well my point, in a way, is that INTJs ARE special in this regard- that setting "INTJ reaction to criticism" as a bar for others to adhere to is somewhat unreasonable. It's like a deaf person saying, "Well the noise in here isn't bothering me, it shouldn't bother you either." :laugh:

I really don't mean to belabor the point- and it's actually on a very separate tangent from the discussion that was going on (which I'd stopped paying attention to myself). I do see your point- there is a point where individuals must realize the world doesn't revolve around them, and they have to suck it up and assimilate. But also: this isn't the army, it's available to choose not to assimilate and to simply leave- and several members have done just that. I just wanted to point out an example of (what seems to me) something that was discussed almost ad nauseam a few months back about the possible consequences of having a predominately INTJ modbox (and people leaving the forum because the forum seemed to become far more business-oriented than people-oriented).

I don't want this to turn into a thing. I just wanted to give a "see, this is an example of what I was trying to tell you people."
 

Starry

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[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] I will get to your posts here soon but since Coriolis' comment that Z Buck mentions below came just before yours... and made me question for a few minutes whether I was on a "typology" or "sameology" website... I'm going to try to babble out a few words. But it is this kind of comment...I see it a lot on this forum...a forum in where we're trying to understand our differences or so I thought...that is such a large part of pain I have absolutely not been trying to avoid (I only avoid the pain of bills and household chores...daily livin stuff).



In spite of feeling like this might be teetering on "beating a dead horse" territory (to prolong anything about this whole conversation)- it's exactly this kind of comment that makes a predominately INTJ modbox somewhat problematic (this is an example of what I've tried pointing out before). Because guess what? INFJs aren't INTJs. And it kinda seems like it should go without saying that of course "Why do others hate INFxs?" is going to stir up more drama than an "Why do others hate INTxs?" thread. "Be more INTJ / problem solved" doesn't actually work unless you're dealing with INTJs. (What it does do is make sensitive INFxs feel bad about being INFxs.)


/preaching


Thank you. Where are we?
 

the state i am in

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i mean, i do think this thread is valuable, and it is a rehash of many things that have happened so many times before, but in a sense it is learning how to deal with the Fe/Fi divide and work thru conflicts in a constructive way. most of us need the practice, and being able to explicate and balance perspectives and be in it all at once is kind of fucking awesome.

i also agree with yui's point. and i'm not sure if that is part of where peacebaby is coming from. at times, i know peacebaby wants to help facilitate, appreciates seeing both sides of conflicts, and values improving communication. i do trust that, even as, at times, i have a little bit of inner resistance when it feels like her process prioritizes Fi/Te needs over Fe/Ti ones. it's at this point where i think it's maybe useful to actually better understand the assumptions. i have guesses and would love additional feedback/conversation about them.

for one, i think Fi generally will prioritize the individual. and so there's kind of a gang-up situation brewing, and making sure both sides are heard and that that individual is protected and validated too might be the highest pressing priority. there is a more direct reality to many vs one than one saying irresponsible generalizations from a place that isn't actually aiming to hurt any one individual but is more about there own emotionally charged state. in that way, demanding an apology that goes extra far, as jui pointed out, is more of a direct interpersonal shit move, and in a way is more problematic. instead of just getting an acknowledgment, there might be a desire for shaming the behavior too, which really isn't helpful. once shame is triggered, however, a blame state is really difficult to avoid. giving energy to all those ways you blame yourself, at some point, loses containment and becomes a bit of a shit-show. in this way, it's partly an infj thing with Fe oftentimes having especially intense challenges with boundaries, but it's also a really high sensitivity thing, which oftentimes gets pushed back on the sensitive person and does result in them internalizing a lot of blame for being sensitive in the first place. few things are as much of a trap as this. i'm sure so many of us on this board recognize that process in action and have at times felt strangled by it.

it does get more complicated, too, when the fact that this isn't really driven (at least i don't think) by an interpersonal conflict so much as a political one, where the board is kind of negotiating expectations for how interactions should go and what kinds of considerations and respects should be required. i think, in some ways, we are exploring in kind of a microcosm how our ways of contributing and our perspectives relate to larger social spaces, and there is a deeper element in recognizing that social/cultural spaces are tinged with typological biases as well that do become real gradients for us to express ourselves and ask to be valued for what we do/are. i think hel did such an amazing job of articulating that lazy generalizations DO matter, but, at the same time, there were moments of unsympathetic reading too that brought up issues about how we are accountable to generalizations when we both write and read. i think more conversation or explanation from this could be helpful.
 

Coriolis

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In spite of feeling like this might be teetering on "beating a dead horse" territory (to prolong anything about this whole conversation)- it's exactly this kind of comment that makes a predominately INTJ modbox somewhat problematic (this is an example of what I've tried pointing out before). Because guess what? INFJs aren't INTJs. And it kinda seems like it should go without saying that of course "Why do others hate INFxs?" is going to stir up more drama than an "Why do others hate INTxs?" thread. "Be more INTJ / problem solved" doesn't actually work unless you're dealing with INTJs. (What it does do is make sensitive INFxs feel bad about being INFxs.)
I was waiting for someone to bring this up. As we all know, every type has strengths and weaknesses. We are often encouraged to work on our weaknesses, or at least to become more aware of them so we can mitigate their impact in our life. Countless threads hereabouts have in one way or another encouraged INTJs to be more like NFs - more sensitive to the feelings of others, more careful with what we say and do. This is a legitimate suggestion. Taking it to heart will never turn us into NFs, but it may help smooth some of our rough edges so we get along better in life. It is similarly legitimate to suggest that NFs have something to learn from how INTJs handle conflict or criticism.

Beyond this, we are all upset by different things. If we know what upsets us, and we willingly go into a situation where such things are likely to be present, we should be prepared for what we find. If we don't want to deal with it, we can just stay away. I can assure you that as an INTJ I employ this rule of thumb quite often. Life is too short to subject myself to needless aggravation.

When I was in the Marines, 50-75 of us lived on a single floor in an open squadbay. We were trained to kill, we had guns and knives, and we were young and uneducated. There was a lot of testosterone in the air, a lot of muscle-flexing and getting in each other's faces. There were racial issues, class issues, and so on. We were packed in like sardines, all showered, shaved, and shit in the same bathroom, and people were always getting into shoving matches.

We had to have mechanisms for getting over our disagreements quickly, or people would have ended up dead. We had to get along and work and live together 24/7. We didn't have the luxury of indulging long-running feuds. And, in fact, there seemed to exist a some kind of social mechanism for how to deal with petty squabbles--probably an Fe thing.

Basically if person A started talking shit and ended up getting person B or several people riled up, then some third parties would intervene and lean on person A to back it off. If he was smart, person A would realize he maybe crossed a line and he would make some kind of concession: "Okay, maybe I was out of line. I still think it was fucked up, but I guess I have to suck it up and not go shooting off my mouth about it."
Outstanding example. I think what the forum lacks by comparison is that group of third parties who mediate between A and B. Yes, we have the modstaff, but by the time something is reported to us, it has often gone beyond this stage. (We do try to mediate when we catch situations early enough, but the forum is a big place, and many issues escape our notice until a report comes in.) This is why I was encouraging elsewhere for members to be that third party - to take the part of someone being bullied in a thread; to point out that both sides in a dispute have valid points; to pull the thread back on track with a substantive post.

As the saying goes, be the change . . .
 

magpie

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i think hel did such an amazing job of articulating that lazy generalizations DO matter, but, at the same time, there were moments of unsympathetic reading too that brought up issues about how we are accountable to generalizations when we both write and read. i think more conversation or explanation from this could be helpful.

I'm glad everyone is exploring this but I don't think I did a very good job. I think what I brought up was my focus on a subject that had been brought up by others but that no one else was concerned with in the same way I am. So this was never about generalizations in the way that I made it specifically. From the start this thread hasn't been about a lot of things that it was made into. But we let it become what people needed it to be and worked it out because it was necessary. But if we aren't going to address it in the way that I've specified then let's not pretend it's something it's not. I'm not saying we have to address it in my way, of course. Just that the precedent has been set for that already in this thread.

My point is people aren't concerned with generalizing in this thread in the same way I am. And they don't have to be. But it's important to acknowledge that they're not.
 

magpie

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As an addendum though, that doesn't mean what I've brought up isn't important or is any less important than what anyone else has brought up, just because even though what I've brought up isn't necessarily true for everyone else, it's still true for me.
 

Starry

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It's not a fence that any of us get to straddle both sides of. Working through interpersonal issues requires engagement with the source. Just the way these things go. All other efforts are an unfortunate substitute for purposeful dialogue, and the "poking" only serves to support the internal position in an external way, providing an outlet but not providing the answer. Isn't the answer what's being sought?

It's like playing ice hockey but never wearing skates. Or playing chess but moving on only one side of the board. Yet claiming you've done both.

eta: What are your underlying personal beliefs and what assumptions are you making here?


Your post to me that came just before this...while I understood the overall message I think I confused a couple of the complementary (not necessarily essential) details...which again falls entirely to me and the fact I've been *burning the candle at both ends*. I'm left to wonder though whether I'll just end up making things even more confusing if I attempt a "what I thought you were saying was..." type explanation. And so I may sidestep that just for now...


I personally believe there should be less assumption and more tolerance on a typology website (out of everyone I should say)
 

the state i am in

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I'm glad everyone is exploring this but I don't think I did a very good job. I think what I brought up was my focus on a subject that had been brought up by others but that no one else was concerned with in the same way I am. So this was never about generalizations in the way that I made it specifically. From the start this thread hasn't been about a lot of things that it was made into. But we let it become what people needed it to be and worked it out because it was necessary. But if we aren't going to address it in the way that I've specified then let's not pretend it's something it's not. I'm not saying we have to address it in my way, of course. Just that the precedent has been set for that already in this thread.

My point is people aren't concerned with generalizing in this thread in the same way I am. And they don't have to be. But it's important to acknowledge that they're not.

i appreciate that sociological perspective, but to me, the underlying energy of ideologies is rooted in needs that are more close to home. i think working directly with these is the most constructive way of unraveling the identifications that are ideology's hooks.

especially when someone feels victimized or burdened by the actual experience. to at the same time ask such a person to take responsibility for their internalized viewpoints and the baggage of that is sometimes too much if one really wants to be constructive (sometimes rooted in a feeling of being owed something). this point is exactly where both sides of this discussion, to me, are arriving at. at some point, the personal does need to come first, and the effort to hold that in focus is helpful for kind of getting to the root of the problem. environments in which people feel like they are afraid to speak bc they know they have internalized shit that isn't perfect don't really help us get to the core conflict that we could work on most directly (when the deepest, most liberated action starts with the self). if the people don't come first, we're just dealing with like iteration 87 and only dealing with splinters.

at the same time, depending on who shows up, the needs of the most immediate situation do change. and you know, when someone is bringing real baggage with them and it's not heard, and there are some major empathy fails, and no one is inquiring for some of those whose viewpoints and challenging situations were part of it too, there is much unresolved. perhaps there should be another thread for that, and for the challenges of dealing with mental illness at home and in being supportive of the larger advocacy strategies that could improve the situation for many throughout our society. i don't know where you're coming from, but maybe you could share some of your actual experience or concerns more directly from where you're actually at. to me, you have helped facilitate, bc for what it's worth, you seem to bring additional focus on more indirect concerns and health of spaces in a way that vibes with Fe somewhat, even if whom you're trying to protect in this situation is different/starts in a different place. however, i don't entirely follow your process, so i am really guessing as to what you need from this, and for what kind of positive change you are trying to contribute to/facilitate. i know for me, sometimes i definitely can benefit from having help being led into a path of experience that can improve my empathy with both real and abstracted characterizations of experience (why infps kind of own the novel :)).
 

Coriolis

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All discussion of voluntary/involuntary hospitalization for mental illness has been moved to a new thread. If you wish to comment on this topic, please go there.
 

great_bay

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- Never brush their teeth
- Fart in public with no shame
- Play video-games all day under basement
- Messiah complex
 

magpie

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i appreciate that sociological perspective, but to me, the underlying energy of ideologies is rooted in needs that are more close to home. i think working directly with these is the most constructive way of unraveling the identifications that are ideology's hooks.

especially when someone feels victimized or burdened by the actual experience. to at the same time ask such a person to take responsibility for their internalized viewpoints and the baggage of that is sometimes too much if one really wants to be constructive (sometimes rooted in a feeling of being owed something). this point is exactly where both sides of this discussion, to me, are arriving at. at some point, the personal does need to come first, and the effort to hold that in focus is helpful for kind of getting to the root of the problem. environments in which people feel like they are afraid to speak bc they know they have internalized shit that isn't perfect don't really help us get to the core conflict that we could work on most directly (when the deepest, most liberated action starts with the self). if the people don't come first, we're just dealing with like iteration 87 and only dealing with splinters.

at the same time, depending on who shows up, the needs of the most immediate situation do change. and you know, when someone is bringing real baggage with them and it's not heard, and there are some major empathy fails, and no one is inquiring for some of those whose viewpoints and challenging situations were part of it too, there is much unresolved. perhaps there should be another thread for that, and for the challenges of dealing with mental illness at home and in being supportive of the larger advocacy strategies that could improve the situation for many throughout our society. i don't know where you're coming from, but maybe you could share some of your actual experience or concerns more directly from where you're actually at. to me, you have helped facilitate, bc for what it's worth, you seem to bring additional focus on more indirect concerns and health of spaces in a way that vibes with Fe somewhat, even if whom you're trying to protect in this situation is different/starts in a different place. however, i don't entirely follow your process, so i am really guessing as to what you need from this, and for what kind of positive change you are trying to contribute to/facilitate. i know for me, sometimes i definitely can benefit from having help being led into a path of experience that can improve my empathy with both real and abstracted characterizations of experience (why infps kind of own the novel :)).

If you want to talk about this in more detail in PM, I'd be happier with that. In a general sense though I get the feeling that me having personal experience or relating to things personally devalues my opinions or perspective on this topic. I'm not trying to be owed things. In a way we have already allowed people their opinions and perspectives in this thread, even when they did not make complete sense or were a result of a misunderstanding. So we didn't owe people that, be we allowed them it. I know that I have strong feelings about this topic. But that doesn't mean that my point about generalizations in regard to this topic is wrong. It does mean though that I don't think it's what caused the conflict in this thread in the first place.
 

her-space-holiday

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very few people hate me(I don't really waste my time interacting with people if I don't think it'll be worth it for either of us), but I think some people are rubbed the wrong way by :

- a bit snobbish, when I was younger especially. My parents raised me on David Lynch, Neil Young,and fine cheese. I'm distracted constantly. I need something really weird and out there to grab me, I'm not actively avoiding popular stuff(..and I've eaten dinosaur chicken nuggets more than a grown adult should in the last few months)..I just have other things to pay attention to. also, I am a little bit of a snob but I would never look down on someone for liking different things. Just don't make me watch it.

- Super friendly aloof person - see ya in six months, friendly acquaintance that I genuinely enjoy running into at social functions from time to time!

- A bit neurotic. I'm really easygoing about a lot of stuff, come hang out at my place,friend, make a mess play some video games, I'll run to the store and you can just chill for a half hour while I get stuff to make dinner........and then have a nervous breakdown because that painting that I've been throwing out and starting all over again for the last two years will.never.be.perfect.

- Back seat driver. To the max. I was a competitive showjumper and dressage rider, and straight lines, balanced turns, and really weird minute shit was drilled into my head. My car is older and a bit froggy, and if I feel like for whatever reason(low tires, whacked out alignment) I'm not driving as straight as possible in the middle of the road then I get genuinely anxious - though I am better with other people in the car so no one aside from my best friend knows the extent of this side of me.

- Can be quick to state my judgements. It's not an end all be all. Morality is mostly relative to me, and if I state a blunt opinion about someone's choice or words then it's more out of a need for authentic, real conversation, and I love it when people try to change my mind. And if I find their argument better, more objective, or at least enough to realize the lack of objectivity in my opinion, then I will gladly concede. But I can unintentionally come off as more intense than how I actually feel about the matter.

- Remember that neurotic perfectionist thing? Well I also have ADHD, so I run around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to find my stuff, and do everything at once, and then get frustrated and a little upset because I'm off task and not working as efficiently as I want to.

- Self depreciating. But also a little smug.
 

Forever

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Guys: forget my conflict [MENTION=22178]hel[/MENTION]. I'd ask you to drop me and Rex's conflicts. Go to town PM'ing whoever, but I'd ask you to drop it in this thread because it concerns me. It was charged from personal issues where I wasn't objective enough to respond appropriately enough. So chill.
 

magpie

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Guys: forget my conflict [MENTION=22178]hel[/MENTION]. I'd ask you to drop me and Rex's conflicts. Go to town PM'ing whoever, but I'd ask you to drop it in this thread because it concerns me. It was charged from personal issues where I wasn't objective enough to respond appropriately enough. So chill.

That is apparent. But the way I'm involved doesn't concern you, just like the way you're involved doesn't really concern me. This thread didn't start out about you and Rex but it turned into that and that conflict or response was validated. Now I'm having a response and would also like some validation. This isn't about you and Rex's conflict anymore, but it seems reasonable that this would be okay, judging from the fact that the thread itself didn't start out being about you and Rex's conflict either.

Aka I've already dropped you and Rex's conflict because I was never involved in it in the first place. But that doesn't resolve anything else. Not everything in this thread concerns you. I'm allowed to have meaning from this thread, or at least, every single person who's entered this thread has derived meaning from it in their own way. And they've been allowed that. Also, I don't think I'm really being unchill.
 

Forever

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That is apparent. But the way I'm involved doesn't concern you, just like the way you're involved doesn't really concern me. This thread didn't start out about you and Rex but it turned into that and that conflict or response was validated. Now I'm having a response and would also like some validation. This isn't about you and Rex's conflict anymore, but it seems reasonable that this would be okay, judging from the fact that the thread itself didn't start out being about you and Rex's conflict either.

Aka I've already dropped you and Rex's conflict because I was never involved in it in the first place. But that doesn't resolve anything else. Not everything in this thread concerns you. I'm allowed to have meaning from this thread, or at least, every single person who's entered this thread has derived meaning from it in their own way. And they've been allowed that. Also, I don't think I'm really being unchill.

No of course not everything in this thread is about me, Thank God.

Well, when you say
It does mean though that I don't think it's what caused the conflict in this thread in the first place.
I'm pretty sure you don't mean stuff 2014 - before. What other conflict is there? Just pointing it out to let you know. Also, the thread's been split by Coriolis so that separate issue is gone from this thread for sure.
 

magpie

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No of course not everything in this thread is about me, Thank God.

Well, when you say
I'm pretty sure you don't mean stuff 2014 - before. What other conflict is there? Just pointing it out to let you know. Also, the thread's been split by Coriolis so that separate issue is gone from this thread for sure.

I know it's gone. The reason I'm still talking about it here is because what I'm talking about is the way feelings and conflicts, I guess, have been addressed and validated in this thread (except mine). I really don't want to be part of the other thread and argue about that stuff because it's not something I'm interested in doing. What I'm still interested in is the way the initial comment about INFJs and mental institutions was validated as "weak Fi" and "hurts of the past," which I believe. But that doesn't explain the intervening posts. I don't want to debate the intervening posts, which is why I'm posting here. I just want to reflect about the trajectory of this thread.

If people really believe that generalizations about that topic cause real life consequences, which seemed to be the case when so many liked my posts about that topic, then I want to know where all those intervening posts came from and I want people to take responsibility for their opinions. It isn't about owing me things. It's about people being honest with themselves and with me and not just for the sake of convenience. And also about actually acknowledging harm.
 

Forever

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I know it's gone. The reason I'm still talking about it here is because what I'm talking about is the way feelings and conflicts, I guess, have been addressed and validated in this thread (except mine). I really don't want to be part of the other thread and argue about that stuff because it's not something I'm interested in doing. What I'm still interested in is the way the initial comment about INFJs and mental institutions was validated as "weak Fi" and "hurts of the past," which I believe. But that doesn't explain the intervening posts. I don't want to debate the intervening posts, which is why I'm posting here. I just want to reflect about the trajectory of this thread.

If people really believe that generalizations about that topic cause real life consequences, which seemed to be the case when so many liked my posts about that topic, then I want to know where all those intervening posts came from and I want people to take responsibility for their opinions. It isn't about owing me things. It's about people being honest with themselves and with me and not just for the sake of convenience. And also about actually acknowledging harm.

You're not exactly on my happy list for doing so but if you want to make it bleed out possibly embedded knowledge or further possibilities, I can't stop you but I don't want to be known on this forum for the guy who overreacted and won't do anything about it kind of guy. I pm'ed the people who I had the conflicts and it's DONE. Also it makes me uncomfortable that if you cared about the issue itself you would've asked all parties, but you didn't and you're only talking to me right now because I'm telling you I have an issue with it.

Maybe you should either blog or start a new thread about how generalizations are taken from either this community or people in general. I knew one girl in my XC team says on her instagram that she hates anyone makes blanket statements which is a contradiction in itself lol. But yeah. I just don't think you have the right to talk about the issue because primarily I was the one offended, if you can't acknowledge it, your topical exploration is biased at best. So please, consider what I mean by ending it.
 
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