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Typological slant in "Self-Help" philosophies?

Eric B

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This page 31 Days of Self-Love - Beliefnet.com reminds me a lot of the advice I used to get from my STJ immediate family. I always had trouble with it, and now looking at it typologically, it's clearly a heavy introverted Feeling perspective ("personal" rational decisions drawn from within, enacted without and returning within. Tandem function Te covers a lot of the outer action as well).

Not so much an FP's Fi, as much as I've read about FP's (Don't know very many in real life). Though these "self first" statements have colored descriptions of the function in general. I believe it is more the TJ's tertiary or inferior function, which the types turn to more later in life, and tend to find "relief" (particularly for the tertiary position, and for inferior, it's like about the very essence of "life" itself). For FP's, where the function is more prominent, it also comes out more others-focused as well. Sometimes, they get caught in "weighing" between self and others. But clearly, for the "task (rather than "people")-focused TJ's, it's clearly more about "self". (Though the FP's will readily accept the counsel of TJ's as how to use their Fi for self more).

To me, Fi is tied up with emotions that represent the death of the ego. Life must make logical sense, including the rules or circumstances that lead to me getting things I want. Possibilities must be open rather than closed (i.e. "that's the way life is", etc.) Such closed concrete facts are only used to set what must be guarded against, fixed, good stuff relived, etc. When dealing in things "personal", the focus is external, and inferior. Even with Interaction Style, Behind the Scenes is "outcome" oriented, meaning I want to see results, rather than struggle through a "process". (This even affects me in things like paying bills).

So when things don't go right, to just tell me, basically, "if you love yourself it won't matter", "just forgive", "don't hold onto things", etc. I feel like my whole humanity is being totally dismissed, and I'd become a walked on nothing! And this is from both secular self-help as well as religion (which often mixes this up with concepts such as "regeneration", and usually substitute "God/Christ/Spirit" for "self". But it's really the same process everyone else is describing, even though they claim it is "supernatural" and exclusive to believers).

And those exercises! Ugh! Looking in a mirror and expressing love and other stuff to yourself, hugging yourself, writing stuff to yourself, and all the other "rules" and "steps". Seems totally illogical and like almost crazy.

But my family insisted this was "universal truth". The ST perspective insists "this is the way it is" and allows no "excuses" or other reasoning. They (especially the religious teachers) present it as so "simple", and always stress "choice", but then it's really a lifelong process. (And it seems NTJ's will adopt it as well, focusing on more theoretical concepts like the "Law of Attraction")

That's what gets me. It can be preached with such authority, but you can't see what's inside them to know if it REALLY works. Anyone can SAY anything! (Many, such as my father, preached what they themselves ultimately could not practice). You can only know through experience; but its not like a car that you try out and then just give back. You'll only know once you've done it (i.e. "grown" slowly over the years). It feels like being suckered into something idealistic that might not even work (they always ignore other factors in problems, including neurological ones. They basically are selling something, and it MUST be shown to "work").

On the other hand, the whole point of the "individuation" process type is based on is to for others to become aware of these processes normally unconscious to them. So I can see where I need to find a way to integrate some of that, at least.
Still, it seems people for whom it comes more naturally just blast this whole deal at you, again, not recognizing typological difference; thinking this is THE universal way, point-blank, and that's it.

So can anyone else relate to this?
 

five sounds

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yes. i've gotten very Je advice about pushing through, burying myself in work, etc. from many. "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" mentality. that does not work for me. i need to be told it's okay to nurture myself, to change the set course if it's not working for me. i often think of self help advice i get from others as typologically biased.
 

Mal12345

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yes. i've gotten very Je advice about pushing through, burying myself in work, etc. from many. "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" mentality. that does not work for me. i need to be told it's okay to nurture myself, to change the set course if it's not working for me. i often think of self help advice i get from others as typologically biased.

Self-help advice is always biased toward the methods that worked for the author. It's hilarious, for example, when self-made millionaires claim they willed themselves up by their own bootstraps, something anybody can do. Then why aren't there millions of them out there?
 

Eric B

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>i need to be told it's okay to nurture myself, to change the set course if it's not working for me.

Well, from what I've seen, they do say that. Most will advocate doing whatever it takes to succeed, or whatever. It seems to be more the attitudes that go along with the way they present it that strikes me the wrong way.
 

five sounds

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>i need to be told it's okay to nurture myself, to change the set course if it's not working for me.

Well, from what I've seen, they do say that. Most will advocate doing whatever it takes to succeed, or whatever. It seems to be more the attitudes that go along with the way they present it that strikes me the wrong way.

yes, some do. like mal said, there's just about every brand in the book, because it's all through the bias of the author. even the success-driven mindset is one i don't relate to. there are some that share my view, that your journey and experiences are more valuable. but there are others who prioritize success, realizing your dreams, etc.
 

Mal12345

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In order to succeed (assuming that's a universal goal), I must be opportunistic. I know what opportunism is. But how do I develop it? Wow, thanks self-help book.
 

Eric B

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Self-help advice is always biased toward the methods that worked for the author. It's hilarious, for example, when self-made millionaires claim they willed themselves up by their own bootstraps, something anybody can do. Then why aren't there millions of them out there?
What I think the insinuation often is, is because everyone's too stupid.
You can see this especially in political debate, where people are deemed too "lazy" and dependent on "handouts" to pull their bootstraps, when wealth is said to be "four mouse clicks away", as I've seen it claimed. That's a double-barrel, because it makes the rich look "good", and absolves them from having to worry about whether they've wrongly trampled the poor (and even the struggling middle class), because those people are the ones who did wrong.
Then, in the religious world, people are just too sinful, "fleshy", self-absorbed, doubting/faithless, etc. for the "principles" to work. They often mention "all those struggling Christians out there", who didn't get it right. The person giving the "testimony" shines as he recounts how he "overcame".
 

Mal12345

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Wat I think the insinuation often is, is because everyone's too stupid. You can see this especially in political debate, where people are deemed too "lazy" and dependent on "handouts" to pull their bootstraps, when wealth is said to be "four mouse clicks away", a I've seen it claimed. That's a double-barrel, because it makes the rich look "good", and absolves them from having to worry about whether they've wrongly trampled the poor (and even the struggling middle class), because those people are the ones who did wrong.
Then, in the religious world, people are just too sinful, "fleshy", self-absorbed, doubting/faithless, etc. for the "principles" to work. They often mention "all those struggling Christians out there", who didn't get it right. The person giving the "testimony" shines as he recounts how he "overcame".

Testimonials are designed to suck more money out of the wallets of the gullible. None of them has walked in my shoes.
 

Eric B

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yes, some do. like mal said, there's just about every brand in the book, because it's all through the bias of the author. even the success-driven mindset is one i don't relate to. there are some that share my view, that your journey and experiences are more valuable. but there are others who prioritize success, realizing your dreams, etc.
I usually see them mixed in together. The whole basis of "realizing your dreams" is believing "you are valuable" in the first place. (And the "experiences" will simply be funneled into the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" meme, which has become almost daily on social media). But clearly, the drive is Te in most of them, but Te and Fi work in tandem, so it's like "where one side is, the other is not far behind".

In order to succeed (assuming that's a universal goal), I must be opportunistic. I know what opportunism is. But how do I develop it? Wow, thanks self-help book.
This is what I always asked. Both secular and religious teachers.
The answer is "well, you just have to dig down within somewhere and find it". It will go around in circles, and they will get very frustrated and conclude "you don't want help".
It was more recenly, looking at all of this in light of functions and the concept of individuation, that I realized this is an Fi perspective (whether in preferred or tert/inf position; more likely the latter actually), and that's why I was never getting it, and also why they couldn't understand why I couldn't get it, and that any objection is just an "excuse".
So they're probably right that it IS there somewhere inside, but it seems an ego-syntonic Fi position will gear one more towards that. Yet the teachers think this is how everyone "should" be. Proof is that "it worked for me, so it must work for you" (and even that is questionable, and often more a "front" for an ideal not lived up to as well as put forth. (Ask people close to them if they've really got it all together like that. For big celebrity teachers, there's no way for any of us to really know).
None of them has walked in my shoes.
Yeah, that's a "crutch" they absolutely cannot allow.
 

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It's interesting -- I had always thought of the sort of self-help described in the OP as being of two different schools:

1) Love yourself in order to love others, be kind to yourself, cut yourself slack, give yourself a big ol' hug, "Treat Yo Self", all those pictures on Tumblr aimed at preteen girls
2) Just plow through it, it'll be better on the other side, "If you're going through hell, keep going", etc

#1 I see as FP, #2 as TJ. I usually see #1 as helpful in moderation but gross and sappy to the point of being useless on the other extreme. I suspect FPs feel similarly about TJ advice.

Anyway I do agree with mal and five sounds about author bias, but I disagree that it can't be helpful to other types anyway. My dad (INTP) just LOVES SJ-style advice books about increasing your productivity and getting shit done. He also likes really sappy advice like "make a list of everything you're grateful for at the end of every day".
 

Mal12345

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Since I'm more of an enneagrammist by far, I don't dig all the talk about Fi which involves identifying with a type. I prefer disidentification. I agree this is a lifelong process where many people and things seem to stand in the way of progress. Everything seems like an obstacle and an intrusion rather than a lesson.
 

Eric B

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It's interesting -- I had always thought of the sort of self-help described in the OP as being of two different schools:

1) Love yourself in order to love others, be kind to yourself, cut yourself slack, give yourself a big ol' hug, "Treat Yo Self", all those pictures on Tumblr aimed at preteen girls
2) Just plow through it, it'll be better on the other side, "If you're going through hell, keep going", etc

#1 I see as FP, #2 as TJ. I usually see [URL=http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 [/URL] as helpful in moderation but gross and sappy to the point of being useless on the other extreme. I suspect FPs feel similarly about TJ advice.
Yeah; I guess the FP advice will focus on #1 , but beneath that, at some point, if the person claims it doesn't work because of all their pain or misfortune, or whatever and the have no other answers, then they'll switch to #2 .
The TJ's will put a bit more emphasis on #2 , but when you ask how to gain the strength to "plow through it", etc. then they'll basicaly turn to something like #1 .

Like my family was clearly on the TJ side, but did give both forms of advice. This just made it all the more maddening; to be torn into with all the directive "coaching", then given all the sappy stuff as some sort of compensation.
Anyway I do agree with mal and five sounds about author bias, but I disagree that it can't be helpful to other types anyway. My dad (INTP) just LOVES SJ-style advice books about increasing your productivity and getting shit done. He also likes really sappy advice like "make a list of everything you're grateful for at the end of every day".
Well, like I said, in the process of maturing, we turn toward the formerly neglected perspectives.
The problem I'm experiencing, is beign in an environment where the other perspective dominates, and they tear into you, dismissing your perspective ans insisting theirs is "universal truth". Now, I'm at the ego stage to become ready to expand to other perspectives, but rather than this being new territory to try, it's a painful memory from the past, carrying a very negative connotation.
 

Mal12345

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If I consider the theories of Ken Keyes, Jr., then either someone is "programmed" for success, or they are not "programmed" for success - or they are "programmed" for failure. Keyes admits in his autobiography that he was "programmed" for success; and furthermore, he learned business from his father and had more of a knack for it than his father. How can I keep up with someone who has practically been born with such a great advantage?

If I stop and reflect on myself, I know from my upbringing that I'm not "programmed" to succeed. Keyes is just another one of those self-help authors who made a lot of money trying to teach people to be like himself, when in fact our "programming" is very difficult if not impossible to change, especially on one's own, and especially lacking his obvious advantage.

So what use have I for artificial social categories such as "success" and "failure"? I would be better off without them.
 

OrangeAppled

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I actually do relate to this, and am not a big fan of self-help books because of it. I'd say it's for very different reasons, but generally I find it vague & to make assumptions about why I have a problem or how I likely feel or even what my desires outcome is, so that it never really feels applicable. I've always seen it more as a J vs P conflict, as the very concept of self-help books seem J to me.

A lot of self-help works off of assumptions that everyone is essentially the same, which is neither Fi nor not-Fi. Or maybe it works off the concept that the self is defined through the action, which means anyone can adopt the action & it will change them (whereas Ji is the opposite - the inner person must change & then the action is altered). Fi is more like everyone is the same at core, but it manifests so wildly different that we cannot meet these same core needs in the same way; so everyone is the same, and yet totally different from one another.

I don't see the "love yourself" mentality as having anything to do with Fi either. I find that vague & cheesy. I'm not really sure what it's getting at. The closest I can get to that is CBT stuff of replacing negative thought patterns deliberately & consciously with more truthful positive or neutral ones. I'm not a goal-driven person, and so I think I seek to have a healthier process as I take my natural exploratory approach, not to reach some state of "success". I can see being frustrated in taking up a process you are not sure will work, but I guess being NFP makes me okay with no definite end-goal, as long as things remain in a state of flux & promise. I can't "plow through", I find shortcuts instead. Ingenuity, not hard work is more NP style.

This has made what you might call "Fe" advice (but which I think is just as much healthy Fi &/or Ne) be better than any self-love, and that's to stop focusing on the self, period. Turn your focus outward, to people & other things, and then those negative feelings are put into perspective.

I don't subscribe to the inferior/dominant functions "working in tandem" idea though. With inf/dom functions, I think it's more of an antagonistic relationship than a complementary one. In other words, STJ style advice tends to be at odds with my mentality. This is "positive" when it riles me up enough to care to figure out how & why I feel as I do (because Fi can make you rather indifferent or simply ignoring of a lot of stuff). Most of the time, it's like "This is BS! How can I subvert this & find a way that suits me & meets my ideals?". Te approaches tend to anger me enough to make me explore why I have such a reaction. They never feel "win-win", but more like "I win - others lose as necessary consequence" or "I must give myself up for the greater good". There's always this sense of either being a sort of mercenary or a martyr. Or I find it overly simplistic, seeming too linear & black & white. Fi complicates stuff...it's like "there are too many variables which can change with the context to have one blanket method."

Like I said, different problem with this kind of literature, but not finding it any more helpful.
 

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I've always believed the only person who can help me is myself. Other people's advice might give me a new perspective on things, but for it to be really useful I need to pick it apart and just keep the helpful bits.

I don't like books that tell you how to do something (and the whole step 1, step 2 thing just drives me crazy). I prefer reading personal accounts of what people go through and how they did it. Usually some wisdom can be gleaned from that.
 

Southern Kross

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So when things don't go right, to just tell me, basically, "if you love yourself it won't matter", "just forgive", "don't hold onto things", etc. I feel like my whole humanity is being totally dismissed, and I'd become a walked on nothing!
I'm so with you on this. It's incredibly invalidating and insulting. This is basically the reason I never tell people about my own problems or negative thoughts - people almost always fail to grasp the complex nature of the issues involved and say stupid shit like this. Then I'm left wondering why I even bothered opening my mouth. :doh:

It's a brand of ignorance to see the world like that. I'm all for trying to shift your perspective to a more productive one, but not if it requires ignoring a whole swath of highly pertinent factors. It's basically trying to cure unhappiness by turning oneself into a blithe idiot. I'm neither capable or desirous of becoming that. :dont:

I'm with [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] in that I don't like self-help books and discourse - they tend to be phony, presumptive and out of touch with reality.

I have been reading some exerts over at Personality Cafe lately from Naomi Quenk's book, Was That Really Me? How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality. It talks about the role of inferior functions (specific to each type) and how it creates certain barriers and issues. I've found it really insightful and helpful, so much so I think I will have to get hold of the book and read the whole thing. In many ways I felt convinced afterward that the inferior functions are the primary cause of many personal problems. I don't know how much it offers advice about overcoming those things but it's something to think about.

Self-help advice is always biased toward the methods that worked for the author. It's hilarious, for example, when self-made millionaires claim they willed themselves up by their own bootstraps, something anybody can do. Then why aren't there millions of them out there?
So true (and irritating).

The funny thing is, this is the sort of advice/mindset I have gotten from many TPs in the past. It's not always that extreme but it's along the lines of, "you just need to do X", where X is something that person is unbelievable naturally talented at. There's no understanding that their gift is effortless and that others may really struggle in that area, and they end up both underestimating themselves and overestimating the capabilities of others. On top of that there seems to be a belief that ability is simply a choice; that you can choose to be good at something if you just set your mind to it. (That's not an accusation BTW - just an observation)
 

five sounds

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I've always believed the only person who can help me is myself. Other people's advice might give me a new perspective on things, but for it to be really useful I need to pick it apart and just keep the helpful bits.

I don't like books that tell you how to do something (and the whole step 1, step 2 thing just drives me crazy). I prefer reading personal accounts of what people go through and how they did it. Usually some wisdom can be gleaned from that.

I agree. I prefer to take what I need from a contextualized, complex account of someone's story. It's much easier for me to find relevant inspiration that way.
 

Eric B

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I actually do relate to this, and am not a big fan of self-help books because of it. I'd say it's for very different reasons, but generally I find it vague & to make assumptions about why I have a problem or how I likely feel or even what my desires outcome is, so that it never really feels applicable. I've always seen it more as a J vs P conflict, as the very concept of self-help books seem J to me.

A lot of self-help works off of assumptions that everyone is essentially the same, which is neither Fi nor not-Fi. Or maybe it works off the concept that the self is defined through the action, which means anyone can adopt the action & it will change them (whereas Ji is the opposite - the inner person must change & then the action is altered). Fi is more like everyone is the same at core, but it manifests so wildly different that we cannot meet these same core needs in the same way; so everyone is the same, and yet totally different from one another.
I don't see the "love yourself" mentality as having anything to do with Fi either. I find that vague & cheesy. I'm not really sure what it's getting at. The closest I can get to that is CBT stuff of replacing negative thought patterns deliberately & consciously with more truthful positive or neutral ones. I'm not a goal-driven person, and so I think I seek to have a healthier process as I take my natural exploratory approach, not to reach some state of "success". I can see being frustrated in taking up a process you are not sure will work, but I guess being NFP makes me okay with no definite end-goal, as long as things remain in a state of flux & promise. I can't "plow through", I find shortcuts instead. Ingenuity, not hard work is more NP style.
Yes, it's J, and particularly T+J (Te). To Te, people are basically just more [impersonal] objects to be moved around for maximum efficiency. Hence, they're all the same; they just need to "fall in line" and "do what they have to do", etc. no excuses, etc.
Where the Fi comes in (counterbalancing this) is again, when the question becomes how we derive this "human worth". That's no longer Te's domain, so it switches to its mirror reflection, Fi, which says personal worth must come strictly from within.
I don't subscribe to the inferior/dominant functions "working in tandem" idea though. With inf/dom functions, I think it's more of an antagonistic relationship than a complementary one. In other words, STJ style advice tends to be at odds with my mentality. This is "positive" when it riles me up enough to care to figure out how & why I feel as I do (because Fi can make you rather indifferent or simply ignoring of a lot of stuff). Most of the time, it's like "This is BS! How can I subvert this & find a way that suits me & meets my ideals?". Te approaches tend to anger me enough to make me explore why I have such a reaction. They never feel "win-win", but more like "I win - others lose as necessary consequence" or "I must give myself up for the greater good". There's always this sense of either being a sort of mercenary or a martyr. Or I find it overly simplistic, seeming too linear & black & white. Fi complicates stuff...it's like "there are too many variables which can change with the context to have one blanket method."
Since the philosophy is largely Te driven, then Fi will be more subdued. It will feel antagonistic, unless the person has developed to the point of beginning to pay more attention to the inferior, which is said to be usually at midlife. It's the way our egos divide reality into opposite "poles".
I have been saying that Fi descriptions are often colored by the likely experience of the T's writing the theories, so does not really represent Fi in its most "mature" form. Hence, all the "screw others, just do what's important to you" descriptions.

I'm so with you on this. It's incredibly invalidating and insulting. This is basically the reason I never tell people about my own problems or negative thoughts - people almost always fail to grasp the complex nature of the issues involved and say stupid shit like this. Then I'm left wondering why I even bothered opening my mouth. :doh:

It's a brand of ignorance to see the world like that. I'm all for trying to shift your perspective to a more productive one, but not if it requires ignoring a whole swath of highly pertinent factors. It's basically trying to cure unhappiness by turning oneself into a blithe idiot. I'm neither capable or desirous of becoming that. :dont:

I'm with OrangeAppled in that I don't like self-help books and discourse - they tend to be phony, presumptive and out of touch with reality.

I have been reading some exerts over at Personality Cafe lately from Naomi Quenk's book, Was That Really Me? How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality. It talks about the role of inferior functions (specific to each type) and how it creates certain barriers and issues. I've found it really insightful and helpful, so much so I think I will have to get hold of the book and read the whole thing. In many ways I felt convinced afterward that the inferior functions are the primary cause of many personal problems. I don't know how much it offers advice about overcoming those things but it's something to think about.

So true (and irritating).

The funny thing is, this is the sort of advice/mindset I have gotten from many TPs in the past. It's not always that extreme but it's along the lines of, "you just need to do X", where X is something that person is unbelievable naturally talented at. There's no understanding that their gift is effortless and that others may really struggle in that area, and they end up both underestimating themselves and overestimating the capabilities of others. On top of that there seems to be a belief that ability is simply a choice; that you can choose to be good at something if you just set your mind to it. (That's not an accusation BTW - just an observation)

Again, it's just like in politics. Recall, how conservatives hit the roof when Obama said "You didn't build that". All he was saying was that nobody can do it alone; everyone is subject to circumstances and the help from others around them. But the Right wants to put their heroes, big business, on this pedestal and say they did it all by themselves (and hence, everyone else is taking from them).

The, you get this type of statement, I just saw:
"for years i thought this world owed me something and was going to lay it at my feet because i was damn deserving of it, boy was i ever wrong.
in time i realized, not only did i have to be the best at what i was doing but i also needed to be aggressive, strategic, and diligent when it came to getting those things i truly desired in life. i'm glad i finally figured that out otherwise i might be sitting around crying victim, making a ton of excuses, and blaming the world for my shortcoming."
The whole "I once was that way, now I've pulled myself out of it, compared to all these losers out there who still think that way". The whole argument would be nothing without all these "others" (whether directly even mentioned or not) to compare to. Getting that kind of "counsel" always felt to me like rubbing in how far I fell short, and need to go to get to that person's position. And they would keep gloating of how "hard" and slow it is; all the "steps", and trial and error, etc. (And then in cases like my father, he really did not have it all together at all, but ended his life in almost the sad state he kept warning me about!)

All any of this is doing is creating a bigger Shadow of weakness (plus fear and every other negative thing they so eschew) they must hide (but will come out in some way, and on unfortunate people under their influence).
I like how the Bible puts it (which even Chrstians who get caught up in the political debates ignore): “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” (1 Cor. 4:7)
 

Eric B

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In addition to what I wrote in my earlier post, I just want to add:

I was recently reading a best-seller how-to book on corporate sales: "The One-Minute Sales Person" by Spencer Johnson. Amid all the Fe/Te advice on how to conduct and close a successful sale, there were a couple chapters (in fact, almost half the book) on how the salesman should motivate himself with a lot of Fi affirmations, self-praisings, visualizations of goals, etc. That latter Fi material all was straight out of the self-help manuals.

Fi is about self-definition, keeping on track, self-direction, etc. It's the stuff you do daily when you're not in top form but you need to pull yourself together and crank out a good day's work no matter how you feel about it. It's reminding yourself who you are, what you're there for, and what you want to accomplish. Without some Fi (either developed naturally or learned through self-help exercises), it's easy for people in high-pressure jobs to get off-track, burn out, lose their focus, etc.

IOW, Fi self-help doctrine isn't just about religion and shrinking the ego and being Mother Theresa; it isn't *only* about religion or individuation processes or whatever. It's *also* the bread and butter of motivational speakers like Tony Robbins, leadership courses, pep talks on how to make your first million before the age of 30, etc. Often in movies or TV shows you'll see corporate executives prepare for a big presentation or event by standing in front of a mirror and reciting affirmations or doing some other Fi self-help ritual. Yes, many executives actually do that in real life.

I know what objections will follow: As role models go, Tony Robbins is not going to be any more attractive than Mother Theresa to an INTP such as yourself. Motivational speakers and self-help zen for corporate executives: Cheesy? Yeah. But for top performers in the business world, that stuff really does help them focus and stay on task.

Anyway, I just want to emphasize the following point: Fi self-help doctrine isn't just airy-fairy spiritual stuff with limited application and use. It's also a critical self-motivation and self-direction tool that is hanging right there on the tool belt of all high performers (corporate executives, business tycoons, military leaders, etc.) and used by them on a daily/ongoing basis.
Exactly! And those types of leaders you mention are generally TJ's, and are leading (or at least supporting) with Te. The Fi is in the background providing the motivation. You can see both in what you describe: an externally directed course of impersonal, almost mechanical (at least that's how it comes off to me) actions (standing in front of a mirror, reciting things, making a routine of it, the goal being acomplishment and success in the business), in order to increase an internal worth and sense of what's important.

I certainly wasn't saying Fi was just airy-fairy stuff. In a preferred position (FP), it may come off that way in stereotypical behavior at times, but in my theory, since the Supine and Sanguine temperaments are largely FP types, then the inferior or tertiary Te will be lead to them being easily motivated by and led to adopt these Te principles, hence, a higher level of "responsiveness" (compliance, basically; where normally, they are not really predisposed to those sort of leadership behaviors on their own).
I certainly believe the corporate executives do this, because I grew up around Te, and while my parents may not have been persistent with it as the executives, it clearly was how they thought when attempting some sort of self-motivation.
(I'm sure there are many ETP executives, and I'm not sure what their method would be. Whether they would just go along with it, because it seems so universal, or whatever. I imagine the ENTP would be likely to come up with some unique alternative).

What happens, is because it "works" for them, they believe it's universal "truth", and then charge at everyone else with this as the "right" was to go, no excuses; don't allow for other factors (including personality type) to affect things, etc.

I was going to add, that what's most bothered me, is that they essentially tell you how to feel. Like when they start talking about "attitude", dealing with frustrations, difficulty is good, "take heart; God is in control"; all these memes you see daily on the social media wall. (Again, both secular and religious). My brother was even mimicking the "process" he was telling me to embark on (self-forgiveness), by signing, breathing in lightly beating the chest, and saying whatever you're supposed to say to yourself. (He even surpassed our father, who always used to say stuff like "just swallow it", or "just tell yourself..."). All of this just drives me up the wall. It's like, damn; you should just put a puppet or robot in my place, and pull the string or program it how to respond to life!

I realized this was a reaction to Fi (when I've always preferred affirmation from others. Not knowing about type years ago, I went to them, and only got the Te/Fi method, proclaimed as THE way). I should mention, it's not that we can never "countenance" shadow functions on others, as it's sometimes been made to seem. It's just that in certain situations like that (I imagine, especially when in a very vulnerable "inferior grip" due to some stressful state), where it itself is coming at you in a more "primitive" form to begin with, and it's going SO against ego's perspective, that it just has such a toxic feeling.

Fi is ultimately about "personal(F) identifcation(i)", which then goes into the "self-definition" you mentioned.
In a more "mature" state, it says "If that were me, I would feel this way. So let me respond to the person's needs as I would want to be responded to" [assuming this indicates universal need].
Hence, the more compassionate stance FP's are more known for.
In a less mature position, especially where it's supporting a preferred Te; it becomes "If that were me, I would feel [and respond] this way. So then you should feel this way, and respond this way too". [Again, presumed to be universal, and then the person not getting with the program is deemed ignorant for rejecting this "help"]. Hence, the "directive", "structure-focused" posture of TJ's.

Fe on the other hand, if "he says he feels this way, or I can see that he feels this way, so let me address his needs". Both Feeling attitudes then become equally "empathetic". Immature tertiary or inferior Fe is similar, but not as proactive in addressing the needs, or tries to do it through an internal logicalal method which may or may not help the person.
This is what happens with all this motivational speaking and counsel often given.

(BTW, as far as Mother Theresa, I think she's usually assumed to be FJ, though I've seen INFP as well. In APS, she's usually held as the perennial Supine, and both IxFP and IxFJ will likely have some Supine. Again, it can be hard to tell, since both Feeling attitudes cand do the same things).
 

EJCC

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Yeah; I guess the FP advice will focus on #1 , but beneath that, at some point, if the person claims it doesn't work because of all their pain or misfortune, or whatever and the have no other answers, then they'll switch to #2 .
The TJ's will put a bit more emphasis on #2 , but when you ask how to gain the strength to "plow through it", etc. then they'll basicaly turn to something like #1 .

Like my family was clearly on the TJ side, but did give both forms of advice. This just made it all the more maddening; to be torn into with all the directive "coaching", then given all the sappy stuff as some sort of compensation.
Well, like I said, in the process of maturing, we turn toward the formerly neglected perspectives.
The problem I'm experiencing, is beign in an environment where the other perspective dominates, and they tear into you, dismissing your perspective ans insisting theirs is "universal truth". Now, I'm at the ego stage to become ready to expand to other perspectives, but rather than this being new territory to try, it's a painful memory from the past, carrying a very negative connotation.
Interesting. Since I brought up my dad as an example before: his stepdad was a highly directive person, definitely some kind of ExxJ, and his mom is/was a mess of paranoia and passive-aggression. What he did to get through it was tune it all out and do what he wanted to do. He spent most of his young career life mostly being his own boss, and doing real estate work. It was only when he was in his forties, and actually working his way up a ladder for the first time, that he stopped being quite the same stereotypical INTP, and viewing the TJ-style career advice and FJ-style gratefulness/etc validation as something he should embrace in order to succeed.

So this thread is a whole other level of interesting now that I know that it's coming from a place of, "how can I find motivational self-help stuff aimed at my sort of person, when I was forced to absorb the other stuff for so long?"

Considering that part of the issue here is 1) not wanting to be told what to do, and 2) not wanting to be told how to feel... I'm wondering if your only option for self-help is pure data. Someone giving you information in written form and letting you come to your own conclusions about it.
 
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