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Ni vs Si

Kullervo

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What are the main differences between the functions? Are there patterns of behaviour that are characteristic of strongly Si, and of strongly Ni individuals?

I am bringing this up because of a Type Me thread I've just seen where the difficulties of deducing whether someone was a Si or Ni user - especially if very introverted - were pointed out. Looking around typology forums this does seem to come up from time to time.

Anyway look forward to your replies!
 

infinite

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What are the main differences between the functions? Are there patterns of behaviour that are characteristic of strongly Si, and of strongly Ni individuals?

I am bringing this up because of a Type Me thread I've just seen where the difficulties of deducing whether someone was a Si or Ni user - especially if very introverted - were pointed out. Looking around typology forums this does seem to come up from time to time.

Anyway look forward to your replies!

Depends which system we're talking about. I guess you only want to hear about MBTI though?
 

á´…eparted

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Si and Ni are the hardest functions to describe in my opinion, and from reading what others have written over the years, this is the sentiment that is usually shared. I've certainly struggled with (and still do) explaining it.

One of the biggest distinctions I have noticed between Ni and Si is the evenness of thought. I've often used the terms "non-linear and linear" to describe them, but I'm starting to think that gives the wrong impression. It's more that Si has more of a flow associated with it. Thoughts and ideas are linked fairly solidly, can be traced and interconnected by the individual with relative ease, and there is an attunement to internal referencing. I.e. information taken in more closely looked at and compared to what the individual knows. It's generally fairly scrupulous. There is usually an awareness associated with Si, and the user has stronger control over being able to turn on or off what they want to think about because they need more awareness to be able to intake information.

Where as with Ni, things are a little more abstract. There is less of an attachment to process of thought. Ni has a bit stronger of an autopilot and it's easy forget where they began or where they are in their stream of thought. They can sometimes trace and interconnect things, but this is a learned skill and still difficult at times. The autopilot allows the user to let it run in the background, sort of a "thinking without thinking", and it's easy for the individual to be completely unaware that they are thinking, or what they even are thinking about. This is where a lot of the "mystical" word useage comes from. It's not a matter of magical insights, but that the individual doesn't need to retain constant awareness of their own thoughts.

There's more to it then that, but that's the skinny of it.
 

Tem

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What are the main differences between the functions? Are there patterns of behaviour that are characteristic of strongly Si, and of strongly Ni individuals?

I am bringing this up because of a Type Me thread I've just seen where the difficulties of deducing whether someone was a Si or Ni user - especially if very introverted - were pointed out. Looking around typology forums this does seem to come up from time to time.

Anyway look forward to your replies!
Hey :).

I've studied the functions a lot but you can find definitions online I'll try to give you my iteration from personal understanding -- maybe INTJ to INTJ conversation might work well :).

So from my understanding, both Ni and Si -dominant users are very much present in their own worlds. The Si user has a VERY immediate experience and they are constantly taking in everything of their immediate experience, and building strong impressions which they are always comparing, contrasting, and storing. You'll find they often use inferior Ne to make connections in the present moment based on something they remember from their past in order to better understand the present moment -- they need to do this to function. When they are experiencing something entirely foreign I've noticed they tend to be just completely wide-eyed and baffled, completely taking in the experience with no comparisons -- this later becomes a base to jump off of for subsequent experiences that are similar.

Behaviorally you'll find that they tend to be a little more conservative, safe, consistent, careful, detail-oriented (regarding specific colors, sizes, numbers, names, textures, etc.).


The Ni user is similar in that the Ni-user also exists in their own world, but this world is of a different nature. The Ni user always has another eye on the cosmic existence, and is always wondering how everything they experience ties into the larger picture -- whatever the larger picture is. Instead of building a repository of memories and experiences like the Si user, you'll find the Ni user builds a repository of ideas, concepts, essences. They will use inferior Se from time to time to touch base with reality and to make sure their visions and ideas are somewhat aligned with the real world -- in the form of being very present and active in their environment. I think in general you'll find the Ni-dominant user is more open to change, movement, progression, crazy ideas -- they'll be looking instantly for essence and connection into a larger picture -- everything needs to fall into place for them.

Hopefully this all makes sense let me know if you have questions or arguments.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Introverted Intuition and Introverted Sensation are alike in the sense that the environment affects the self due to the nature of Introverted Perception functions (contrasted with Extroverted Perception functions, where the self affects the environment)

Introverted Sensation is the realization of how the present environment and concrete observations affect you personally, and accounts for the dynamic features of the present environment. Usually, Introverted Sensors have an excellent memory, which aids them in establishing stability in the environment (for spontaneity can be anxiety-producing to them, and this spontaneity is specifically aimed at hypothetical possibilities postulated not by the environment itself but by what could be in the environment after certain actions are made (a.k.a inferior Ne is scary)), for they are able to remember conditions the environment has inflicted upon them prior and can organize the environment to achieve stability. These people easily know what they like in terms of aesthetics and taste due to the fact that the Si function is always paying attention to the dynamic components of the environment. These people will notice changes in the environment and label them as favorable or unfavorable usually under the concept of comfort, usually taking note of environmental things like temperature, humidity, movements in the environment, noises, etc, in relation to the meaning each of these concrete things create, which is usually in relation to the Si user's memory banks. The sound of a police siren, for instance, might conjure feelings of anxiety and fear in an ex-con Si user due to the fact that he was arrested after a hot pursuit chase where sirens were blaring all over the place (The environment, the police sirens, makes the Si-user, the ex-con, uncomfortable). Ergo, these people will often build attachments to certain objects in the environment due to the meaning they convey, such as a family heirloom and tokens that eschew personal sentiments. Si is the notation and interpretation of the present dynamics of the environment in relation to how the environment affected the individual in the past.

Introverted Intuition, on the other hand, is the realization of dynamic circumstances that are not physically present in the environment, and how they affect you personally. Usually, these dynamic circumstances are not located in the dynamics of the present environment, but how the dynamics of the present environment were arrived at (i.e., It's hot outside right now, which is probably because the sun's out and we are standing on pavement that has been heated since the sun arose) and where the dynamics of the present environment may be leading to in the future (contrasted against Si's dynamic interpretations, which predict immediate outcomes of dynamics in the environment; i.e. If you punch a man, the man will probably punch you back immediately, while Ni is more focused on the possible civil court case that could arise from that action). In a way, Introverted intuition can interpret personal meaning from what isn't present in the physical environment in the present (unlike Si which attaches to that which is in the physical environment), where abstract concepts, omnipresent patterns, and dynamic circumstances are laced with personal meaning, to where the introverted intuitive's concepts and insight is seen in the same fashion as an Si user seeing an object in the environment that conjures personal sentiments. Ideas, Dynamic circumstances, and patterns become the Ni user's heirlooms and memorabilia, allowing the Ni user to build a memory vault much like the Si user's memory bank, except based not on tangible, experienced memories but on previous patterns/circumstances/ideas that have been extrapolated from the environment. As aforementioned with Introverted Sensation, spontaneity still causes anxiety and fear in the Introverted Intuitive, but this is not directed at hypothetical, negative, possibilities that can be induced by the self but by realistic, immediate negative happenings in the present environment that are caused by the self. Ni is the notation and interpretation of the dynamic circumstances of the environment in relation to how the environment probably acted and probably will act.
 

infinite

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Where as with Ni, things are a little more abstract. There is less of an attachment to process of thought. Ni has a bit stronger of an autopilot and it's easy forget where they began or where they are in their stream of thought. They can sometimes trace and interconnect things, but this is a learned skill and still difficult at times. The autopilot allows the user to let it run in the background, sort of a "thinking without thinking", and it's easy for the individual to be completely unaware that they are thinking, or what they even are thinking about. This is where a lot of the "mystical" word useage comes from. It's not a matter of magical insights, but that the individual doesn't need to retain constant awareness of their own thoughts.

Are those thoughts in an entirely intangibly shapeless symbol-less abstract form? Or is this more like, you still think in symbols but it's constant background "noise" that you're used to? ("You" is Ni user in general)
 

infinite

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Well, this is the MBTI section...

I asked because Alea_iacta_est is using a mix of MBTI and socionics definitions.

PS: Well I didn't foresee him posting here lol, I just mean, I find it important to be aware of the systemic differences so that's why I brought up the topic
 

Kullervo

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OK guys, thanks for this. I am embarrassed to say that i am still a little confused though!

I should really do some reading around the topic.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I asked because Alea_iacta_est is using a mix of MBTI and socionics definitions.

PS: Well I didn't foresee him posting here lol, I just mean, I find it important to be aware of the systemic differences so that's why I brought up the topic

I'm not now (in this thread). Though I will admit that I do prefer incorporating the "dynamic" element of Pi from Socionics into JCF, primarily because it offers new insight and allows me to look at the functions in a different light, one that is more relative to how they actually act in environment.
 

infinite

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OK guys, thanks for this. I am embarrassed to say that i am still a little confused though!

That would be because everyone presented a different description. Don't worry about being confused :)

Btw I didn't venture to say anything specific about comparing these functions because Si is the function that keeps nagging me as "nonsense". It's so differently defined in different systems (already different from Jung to MBTI/JCF and of course socionics). So I always felt there's some issue with the whole concept of introverted sensing but this is maybe just me. :)
 

infinite

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I'm not now (in this thread). Though I will admit that I do prefer incorporating the "dynamic" element of Pi from Socionics into JCF, primarily because it offers new insight and allows me to look at the functions in a different light, one that is more relative to how they actually act in environment.

Well I only skimmed your post here and I thought I saw other things too but anyway I would say that adding the concept of "dynamic" perception into MBTI Si does equal using a mix of the two systems.

It's cool if it offers you insight, I don't have a problem with that. But OP asked for the MBTI definition.

As to how they actually act in reality, that's a complex issue. And I have to go & maybe it would be too off topic :p again, because OP only asked for the MBTI definition
 

á´…eparted

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Are those thoughts in an entirely intangibly shapeless symbol-less abstract form? Or is this more like, you still think in symbols but it's constant background "noise" that you're used to? ("You" is Ni user in general)

It is impossible for me to explain how I think. I wish I could but it's very difficult. It's sort of a thing that just happens. I hate saying "things just come to me" because that's not true, I do put thought into things, but there are (for me anyway) lots of gaps between how I connect things. I sometimes tell my friends that I think "from A, to B, to fish, to Q"
 

Kullervo

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Well I only skimmed your post here but I would say that adding the concept of "dynamic" perception into MBTI Si does equal using a mix of the two systems.

It's cool if it offers you insight, I don't have a problem with that. But OP asked for the MBTI definition.

As to how they actually act in reality, that's a complex issue. And I have to go & maybe it would be too off topic :p again, because OP only asked for the MBTI definition

I was hoping this thread might help people who were having typing issues.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Well I only skimmed your post here and I thought I saw other things too but anyway I would say that adding the concept of "dynamic" perception into MBTI Si does equal using a mix of the two systems.

It's cool if it offers you insight, I don't have a problem with that. But OP asked for the MBTI definition.

As to how they actually act in reality, that's a complex issue. And I have to go & maybe it would be too off topic :p again, because OP only asked for the MBTI definition

The only thing borrowed from Socionics is the dynamic concept, which is primarily only used for the word itself, and is even present in the JCF system excepting the specific name. Everything in my post here is JCF.
 

Kullervo

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It is impossible for me to explain how I think. I wish I could but it's very difficult. It's sort of a thing that just happens. I hate saying "things just come to me" because that's not true, I do put thought into things, but there are (for me anyway) lots of gaps between how I connect things. I sometimes tell my friends that I think "from A, to B, to fish, to Q"

I have real trouble explaining how I think as well (sounds like you, a kind of "A leads to B and C which cause D..." etc...) and even more trouble explaining feelings to people.

I have no idea how my mind works actually, its confusing as fuck. The reason I doubt I am an INTJ a lot of the time is because everyone else seems so much better than me, especially at debating...
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I have real trouble explaining how I think as well (sounds like you, a kind of "A leads to B and C which cause D..." etc...) and even more trouble explaining feelings to people.

I have no idea how my mind works actually, its confusing as fuck. The reason I doubt I am an INTJ a lot of the time is because everyone else seems so much better than me, especially at debating...

Have you been debating with ExTPs?

Also, the inability to express/explain emotions properly comes standard in the INTJ.
 

Kullervo

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Have you been debating with ExTPs?

Also, the inability to express/explain emotions properly comes standard in the INTJ.

No, just online (though text has never been my strong point). I can usually dig my way out but yeah...
 

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Si user reacts to subjective aspects of the sensations experienced, in other words what the sensation evokes in him. While Si is not some storehouse of sensations or facts, Si user usually has a good storehouse of information/facts/sensation because when using Si, he relates to this storehouse when abstracting sensations to subjective images.
They also use extraverted intuition in combination of this subjective sensations and focuses on possibilities in the external world more than the concrete sensations.

Ni user uses objective aspect of sensation(uses Se), he reacts to sensation according to the intensity of the sensation itself. Ni itself doesent have the same structure than Si does and is experienced through gut feelings as its too unstructured for consciousness to be felt in other ways. While Ne sees possibilities directly in the external world, Ni has this subjective image of things that is being fed by other functions and possibilities are seen in those subjective lines. And yes ofc there is subjectivity in Ne too, but it relates to objective world instead of subjective like Ni does.

Generally you could say that Ni users tend to be more structured about the external world(cuz Se and especially if combined with Te), but their inner world is not as structured as Si folks.

Naturally the amount of Ni/Se in person for example and how much he relates to Se over Ni or other way around depends on type. Or if you compare ISTJ to ENFP from what i have noticed the inner world of ENFPs isnt nearly as structured as ISTJs is, because ENFP has inferior Si while ISTJ has dom Si. And other functions play as big of a role than Ni or Si does. For example an INFJ can find structure in the inner world using Ti and bla bla bla
 

Nicodemus

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I am embarrassed to say that i am still a little confused though!
That is only natural.

Ni is like a picture. Describing Ni is like painting that very same picture. Thus, to describe Ni is to create Ni, because its mode of existence as well as its subject are conceptual, that is: of a subjective nature. Hence the differences and difficulties in defining Ni. In all these regards, of course, Ni is like Si... and all the other functions.

Jung threw a shadow on the wall that nobody could see, and people have been trying to capture, recast and reshape it ever since, managing only to throw shadows of their own.

So, you see, to end your confusion, all you need to do is paint your own picture.
 
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