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Proposed Changes To the Codes (To Preclude J/P Confusion)

"?"

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It seems that people on all of the forums still miss the J/P understanding. I noticed threads on each of them in the past week. The J/P dichotomy is repetetive and redundant since it was only used to distiinguish the extraversion of the S/N and T/F in all types. Myers asserts that Jung did not give enough notice to introverted types, therefore created her inverted theory to show that the extraverted function is being shown. I liked the creativity, but it's not functional and runs contrary to Jung. Based on his work was explicit in contrasting introverts and extraverts by saying, "The two types are so essentially different, presenting so striking a contrast, that their existence, even to the uninitiated in psychological matters becomes an obvious fact, when once attention has been drawn to it. Who does not know those taciturn, impenetrable, often shy natures, who form such a vivid contrast to these other open, sociable, serene maybe, or at least friendly and accessible characters, who are on good terms with all the world, or, even when disagreeing with it, still hold a relation to it by which they and it are mutually affected."

Myers also contradicts Jung on the auxiliary matter for introverts by giving the function greater recognition than Jung in creating the fourth dichotomy. Jung clearly notes that about the auxiliary and subsequent functions, "…..the presence of a second function of equivalent power is naturally forbidden' This other function, therefore, can have only a secondary importance, a fact which is also established empirically. Its secondary importance consists in the fact that, in a given case, it is not valid in its own right, as is the primary function, as an absolutely reliable and decisive factor, but comes into play more as an auxiliary or complementary function. Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function."

Where does this leave us? Referencing back to Jung's statements, I think he would have disagreed with J/P if not the entire code. He could have (if found it useful to have a code) referenced to the actual functions and acknowledging that Ti-Ne represents INTP equally well, as does Ni-Te for INTJ and so on. Or he may have given Myers-Briggs her kudos, but found the J/P problematic and redundant Jung may have chosen a simpler code to reflec the varied types:

INTJ=INT (Ni-Te)
INTP=ITN (Ti-Ne)
INFP=IFN (Fi-Ne)
INFJ=INF (Ni-Fe)

ISTJ=IST (Si-Te)
ISTP=ITS (Ti-Se)
ISFJ=ISF(Si-Fe)
ISFP=IFS (Fi-Se)

ENTJ=ETN (Te-Ni)
ENTP=ENT (Ne-Ti)
ENFJ=EFN (Fe-Ni)
ENFP=ENF (Ne-Fi)

ESTJ=ETS (Te-Si)
ESTP=EST (Se-Ti)
ESFJ=EFS (Fe-Si)
ESFP=ESF (Se-Fi)
 

Mondo

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Interesting. I agree with you that was Jung's main intention.
I think that the J/P dichotomy was something Meyers added to show another factor of a person's thought process.
However, it is important to note that in certain situations Jung's introverts will seem like extraverts and vice versa.
I think the problem is that at times the dominant function and the auxiliary function will both play a large role (and sometimes close to equal) in a person's life- especially for introverts that are forced into the external world.

I think one of the problems might be NOT the fact that it is accurate (it is and I know what you're talking about.. :)) BUT the fact that it makes the typing system confusing to amateurs.

The extraverted counterpart of the ITN is the ENT, for instance.
People who don't know much about Meyer-Briggs would assume that the extraverted counterpart of the ITN is the ETN, which is certainly not the case.

Meyers thought that the way we have it now would attract more people to the system itself.
 

Wolf

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That's a great solution to the problem.

To optimize further, one could drop the first letter in the case of extroverts, since the primary function would be extroverted, while adding the "I" indicates introversion of the primary function.

Then again, the J/P is helpful when dealing with Sensors, as it reflects the distinct differences between those sharing the first three letters.
 

entropie

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Concerning the whole test in itself, I think that this adjustment would rip it apart. With more logical minded peoples, it is mostly more easy to tell, if it is p or J. There is no way for example, I would start planning things through ore be that Extraverted Thinker that exactly tells someone what to do. I would always go with "do what you think is right and stick to what I gave you as guidelines and then show me your results." The outcome is that I am never pleased with anyone elses work on a topic I am good at. So to solve this the conclusion must be that I better direct their efforts, but instead I take the work into my own hands (Ti).

As far as it goes for those types that are still more mysterious and whose secrets about how they work, sometimes completly contradict to anything you expected; they cant be not discribed by MBTI by saying: "lets leave out, what we cant understand".

Then in my opinion, one has to make up a completly new matrix on psychology. Cause MBTI in its whole is just an ideal, not a working, nature-based, mathematically proven system, which has clear misunterstood points that can be reevaluated.
 

spirilis

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Socionics has an alternate type form that is similar. ILE, for instance, would be an ENTp (Intuitive-Logical Extrovert), and likewise EII would be INFj (Ethical-Intuitive Introvert)
 

Haphazard

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Very interesting...

Though J and P have some use, it might make it so that instead of people assuming that types with two or three letter in common are similar they actually have to look up what the type means.
 

Magic Poriferan

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My response to this that I've already concluded the MBTI's notation is mislead in all kinds of ways. Changes would have to go beyond this, but then why bother?

I feel perfectly comfy just citing raw function preferences, myself.
 

Eric B

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Socionics starts off by doing exactly what was suggested; dropping off the J/P; but then puts it back with a different meaning, so that the type with the j is more like its p counterpart, and vice versa.

I think J/P are useful, especially when mapping temperament theory (and Interaction Styles) to the system. A person who extraverts a judging function will have certain traits that are significant and noticeable, when compared to someone who extraverts perception. This will affect behaviors such as directing or informing communication (which themselves are indicators of people vs task orientation, which is the other factor besides I and E traditionally used in temperament theory).
 

Gabe

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I love it! so now a percieving type is one with a dominant irrational function, right?
 

Ilah

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I like the suggestion of referring to people as INT or ITN rather than INTP or INTJ. When I was learning the system, I had to keep double checking if J or P means the S/N trait is the dominant.

I also like the idea of just using NiTe instead of INTJ. I think this could also be adapted to use some of the MBTI terms to describe those with non standard development. For example, I am INTJ, so I would be NiTe, but my Ni was not veiwed favorably growing up so my Te often comes across as stronger. I might decribe myself as I TeNi - introverted but with Te a stronger fuction than Ni.

Not sure if this is off the subject or not but I am curious - why are the forums NT, NF, SJ and SP? Why not NT, NF, ST and SF?

Ilah
 

Nocapszy

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"?"s idea is good. I know it's good because I thought of it before.

There's already a thread on this isn't there?

Anyway, P/J is a joke. Death to P/J.
 

"?"

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Interesting. I agree with you that was Jung's main intention.

I think the problem is that at times the dominant function and the auxiliary function will both play a large role (and sometimes close to equal) in a person's life- especially for introverts that are forced into the external world.
Based on Jung, the auxiliary function may be undeveloped or non-existent. Myers-Briggs work is based on healthy types and there is little information (as you know) regarding how someone using under developed functions may appear.
The extraverted counterpart of the ITN is the ENT, for instance. People who don't know much about Meyer-Briggs would assume that the extraverted counterpart of the ITN is the ETN, which is certainly not the case.
I think this depends on what your definition of counter part may be. Some think that the counter parts are those with identical functions but with reversed attitudes, thus the counter for ITN (Ti-Ne) would be ETN (Te-Ni).
 

"?"

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I think J/P are useful, especially when mapping temperament theory (and Interaction Styles) to the system. A person who extraverts a judging function will have certain traits that are significant and noticeable, when compared to someone who extraverts perception. This will affect behaviors such as directing or informing communication (which themselves are indicators of people vs task orientation, which is the other factor besides I and E traditionally used in temperament theory).
I see your point Eric. Myers-Briggs' assertion was that the ST-SF was equally different as NT-NF. Keirsey's theory does make more sense due to the notable differences in SJ-SP.
 

"?"

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Thanks for all of the feedback. I have no expectations of the system ever changing, but it just seemed more functional to reduce the codes to meet Jung's original intent. Again the J/P merely indicates the extraverted function of each type. Myers-Briggs seemed to have placed more emphasis on this when inverting the introverted types. The whole premise is to limit the confusion of dichotomies. The proposed codes are an combination of Myers-Briggs' original codes modified to meet Jung's theory that even the introverted functions are noticeable.
 

Mondo

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Based on Jung, the auxiliary function may be undeveloped or non-existent. Myers-Briggs work is based on healthy types and there is little information (as you know) regarding how someone using under developed functions may appear.I think this depends on what your definition of counter part may be. Some think that the counter parts are those with identical functions but with reversed attitudes, thus the counter for ITN (Ti-Ne) would be ETN (Te-Ni).

It's an interesting take.
I agree that it matters on the definition of 'counterpart'.
However, it is clear that the ITN and ENT are more similar in terms of behavior than the ITN and ETN. I agree that there are some people who have a very strong dominant function and an 'undeveloped' auxiliary function.

However, I have a question.
If I feel I use Ti & Ne about equally- where does that put me in terms of Jung types.
From Myers, I can say that I am an XNTP but from Jung, I am either an ITN or ENT.. oy, this must be why so many people like Socionics so much!!

Would it be IT/EN../EN/IT... always interchanging?
 

edcoaching

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I see your point Eric. Myers-Briggs' assertion was that the ST-SF was equally different as NT-NF. Keirsey's theory does make more sense due to the notable differences in SJ-SP.

Myers used ALL ways of grouping types. It depends on your purpose. Her most notable work actually made use of grouping by dominants. Temperaments (Kiersey) are useful for leadership and teams, quadrants (ES, IS, EN, IN) for learning styles and change management, dominants for problem solving and team analysis, function pairs (ST, SF, NF, NT) for communication, the last letters for conflict skill development and so on.

Myers actually added J-P so that a person could understand from the code the dominant function--it points to the extraverted function, which is the auxiliary function for Introverts. In the actual training to administer the MBTI, learning the "order of preferences" that the codes reveal and that unpack dominant/auxiliary/tertiary/inferior is over 20% of the test and a huge chunk of time.

Myers did not believe that the dominant and auxiliary are equal. In Gifts Differing she wrote "One process --sensing, intuition, thinking or feeling--must have clear sovereignty, with opportunity to reach its full development, if a person is to be really effective.

"One process alone, however, is not enough. For people to be balanced, they need adequate (but by no means equal) development of a second process, not as a rival to the dominant process but as a welcome auxiliary." (p. 11)

The point made above about purpose is key--Jung's work came from his clinical practice and Myers was concentrating on normal differences among normal people--how could understanding bring about a better world...
 

"?"

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......However, I have a question. If I feel I use Ti & Ne about equally- where does that put me in terms of Jung types.

From Myers, I can say that I am an XNTP but from Jung, I am either an ITN or ENT.. oy, this must be why so many people like Socionics so much!!

Would it be IT/EN../EN/IT... always interchanging?
Mondo, your confusion along the E/I dichotomy is consistent with most of us. Myers-Briggs usage of dichotomies confuses us because of it's forced choice. Jung and Myers-Briggs agree that type rarity comes when someone is 100% or close to that with a certain function or dichotomy. In reality we are somewhere in the middle. If you do use your Ti-Ne equally it simply means you have a well developed type. Yet arguably Myers-Briggs would have us believe that the extraverted function is seen by people first. I am still not sure on that. Again Jung says that the introverted function is just as noticeable.

One thing that I have come to realize is that I use my Se in defense at times and usually when around people that I don't know well. When at home or comfortable around others, my Ti is very noticeable.
 

"?"

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"One process alone, however, is not enough. For people to be balanced, they need adequate (but by no means equal) development of a second process, not as a rival to the dominant process but as a welcome auxiliary." (p. 11)
I agree with you on everything, even this statement, but I am not sure whether it's realistic for someone to maintain the balanced state alluded to by Myers-Briggs. Our environment and circumstances usually makes us resort back to using our dominant function, and ocassionaly using our auxiliary defensively or to serve our dominant function.
 
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