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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Any Cognitive Function Experts Care to interpret?

lecky

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Dec 2, 2007
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148
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Te (Extroverted Thinking) (20%)
your valuation of / adherence to logic of external systems / hierarchies / methods

Ti (Introverted Thinking) (75%)
your valuation of / adherence to your own internally devised logic/rational

Ne (Extroverted Intuition) (60%)
your valuation of / tendency towards free association and creating with external stimuli

Ni (Introverted Intuition) (70%)
your valuation of / tendency towards internal/original free association and creativity

Se (Extroverted Sensing) (30%)
your valuation of / tendency to fully experience the world unfiltered, in the moment

Si (Introverted Sensing) (70%)
your valuation of / focus on internal sensations and reliving past moments

Fe (Extroverted Feeling) (50%)
your valuation of / adherence to external morals, ethics, traditions, customs, groups

Fi (Introverted Feeling) (80%)
your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings

based on your results your type is likely - infp

1. Fi
2. Ti
3. Si
4. Ni
5. Ne
6. Fe
7. Se
8. Te

Or

1. Fi 80% Fe 50%
2. Ni 70% Ne 60%
3. Si 70% Se 30%
4. Ti 75% Te 20%

Why are my introverted functions so ridiculously high? I always score Ni>Ne, the extremely high Ti no clue why and my Si has always consistently been high.

Does this mean I am paranoid and need to get out the house more? What's the deal? :shrug: :huh: LOL

I took this long ago and received similar results except Ti was much lower. I am mostly curious as to why my Ni always is marginally higher than my Ne.
 

INTP

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sx
Test is crap and based on flawed assumption that there are 8 functions in use.
 

lecky

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sx/sp
Okay thanks! I thought we did use all 8, but I am a cognitive function novice.
 

INTP

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Okay thanks! I thought we did use all 8, but I am a cognitive function novice.

Some claim that we use 8(socionics, beebe, thompson), but MBTI, Jung, experience and all proper sources say 4. Basically in order for a theory to use 8 functions, they need to change the definition of functions quite drastically. For example the short definitions that are attributed to Te on that test are just things that are typical for an Te user to be fluent at, but it just T evaluation of external world that can be done via Ti + sensing as well. Also like in my case this test gave me high Fi some years ago because much use of Fe, but also much Ti analysis on that Fe stuff.
This short definition of Si shows the need to alter the function definition in order to make it fit to 8 function theory. Si is focused on sensation that your sense organs give to you, but the determining factor on whether or not the exact sensation coming from the external world gets strong enough to get over the threshold that is required for you to be conscious of it(thus giving more subjective view on the external world), depends on your inner experience of the sensation, not on the intensity of the sensation itself(which is the case with people who prefer Se over Si).

Im sure that there will be some who come to argue for 8 function theory.
 

skylights

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Messages
7,756
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INFP
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so/sx
I'm no expert, but here are some thoughts...

Some people believe that all 8 are used simultaneously or in turns; others believe that the E/I directions are more like "conveyer belt" directions and you can only make them move one way at a time, either in or out, so you only use 4 functions but each can be used in 2 different ways, just not at the same time.

You'll often score high on functions that operate similarly to your dominant because they "work" similarly and it can be hard to delineate them through a one-size-fits-all test... Theoretically, as an INFP, your Ni score could be higher than Ne because you're using some combination of Fi-Ne-Si to imitate Ni processing. Your introverted functions coming out very high could either be a quirk of the test or maybe you're just very mentally introverted. It's different than social extraversion.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Im sure that there will be some who come to argue for 8 function theory.

'allo.

What if the 8 function model's various contradictory definitions for functions could be eradicated by the simple defining of the base functions, like what Socionics has done with the original Jungian model (sort of).

Ji = Projection of principles formulated in the self on the environment. Things that don't fit must be the fault of something in the environment, not the principles themselves. Decisions -> How things should be working according to the framework.

Je = Assimilation of information from the environment. When something goes wrong, the data extrapolated from the environment is obviously correct, so the framework is wrong. Decisions -> How things should be working according to the evidence.

Pe = Sensing the power capable of/in the environment. Intuition sees the plausible power of ideas possible in the environment, Sensing sees the power of objects present in the environment, the power of on-hand resources. Perception -> How far can I go with the resources/the possibilities I have at my disposal?

Pi = Introspection of the power in the self to mold the environment. Intuition sees the plausible/realistic power in one's own ideas, theories, concepts and their possible effects on the environment, Sensing sees the physical power of the self: psychological strength, mental strength, physical strength, one's own stress levels, etc, and seeks to realistically meet the demands of the environment based on how capable they are. Perception -> How far can I go in my current state (physical, mental, psychological)/ with the state of my own ideas/concepts/theories?

So it would seem like through the definitions of the blue-print functions and the assertion that the shadow functions are complete bullshit, that certain types are incapable of certain things. Ni types would lack any ability to understand their physical state at all, and can never understand their psychological limitations, Se types too, as well as being unable to see the hypothetical value of ideas in the environment at all.

I can't wait to see how you'll beautifully rip apart what you deem to be a monstrous misinterpretation of something or another, Quasi-identical.
 

INTP

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'allo.

What if the 8 function model's various contradictory definitions for functions could be eradicated by the simple defining of the base functions, like what Socionics has done with the original Jungian model (sort of).

Thats what i said; "Basically in order for a theory to use 8 functions, they need to change the definition of functions quite drastically."

Rest sounds more like some rationalization in order for the theory to work rather than something representing the reality.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Thats what i said; "Basically in order for a theory to use 8 functions, they need to change the definition of functions quite drastically."

Rest sounds more like some rationalization in order for the theory to work rather than something representing the reality.

'cept the rationalization is general enough to apply realistically without overreaching, courtesy of Socionics.

In that system, PoLR Fe, for instance, is the blind-spot of the xLI, which means they ignore objectified ethics and thus do not make decisions through them, as well as being relatively deficient in drawing in the emotional value from an object (instead projecting their own emotional value on objects through a valued, unconscious, projection function, Fi) or interpret others' values for an object, subsequently ignoring others' feelings/attatchments for things because the directive is a blindspot for the type. How many IxTps have you known to say something socially inappropriate, inconsiderate, or rude and simply not know that they did, almost pathologically pervasive? I have definitely seen a fair share (myself included). It's easily applicable, if it's general, unlike the hyper-specific descriptions provided for functions now. IxTjs ultimately lack in asserting themselves and making their presence and their force known, and that one is definitely no surprise considering the amount of shy, tenative INFPs and INTPs encountered in the world. The functions must be generalized.
 

Geonat

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134
'allo.

What if the 8 function model's various contradictory definitions for functions could be eradicated by the simple defining of the base functions, like what Socionics has done with the original Jungian model (sort of).

Ji = Projection of principles formulated in the self on the environment. Things that don't fit must be the fault of something in the environment, not the principles themselves. Decisions -> How things should be working according to the framework.

Je = Assimilation of information from the environment. When something goes wrong, the data extrapolated from the environment is obviously correct, so the framework is wrong. Decisions -> How things should be working according to the evidence.

Pe = Sensing the power capable of/in the environment. Intuition sees the plausible power of ideas possible in the environment, Sensing sees the power of objects present in the environment, the power of on-hand resources. Perception -> How far can I go with the resources/the possibilities I have at my disposal?

Pi = Introspection of the power in the self to mold the environment. Intuition sees the plausible/realistic power in one's own ideas, theories, concepts and their possible effects on the environment, Sensing sees the physical power of the self: psychological strength, mental strength, physical strength, one's own stress levels, etc, and seeks to realistically meet the demands of the environment based on how capable they are. Perception -> How far can I go in my current state (physical, mental, psychological)/ with the state of my own ideas/concepts/theories?

So it would seem like through the definitions of the blue-print functions and the assertion that the shadow functions are complete bullshit, that certain types are incapable of certain things. Ni types would lack any ability to understand their physical state at all, and can never understand their psychological limitations, Se types too, as well as being unable to see the hypothetical value of ideas in the environment at all.

I can't wait to see how you'll beautifully rip apart what you deem to be a monstrous misinterpretation of something or another, Quasi-identical.

Aha, so this sort of unifies Ti and Fi under the concept of Ji, Ni and Si under Pi, Te and Fe under Je and Ne and Se under Pe? Without any indepth knowledge at all of this subject (as you certainly must be more than aware of :)) I find the idea very appealing. Perhaps this is a sufficient resolution to stay at when further discrimination in one or more of the four concepts becomes difficult to disentangle for specific individuals. Reminds me of unification models in physics (finding invariants under certain transformations) which may be a sign of step-by-step maturing of a scientific field. Sorry to break in, I will certainly not kidnap this thread. Just wanted to thank you.
 

INTP

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'cept the rationalization is general enough to apply realistically without overreaching, courtesy of Socionics.

In that system, PoLR Fe, for instance, is the blind-spot of the xLI, which means they ignore objectified ethics and thus do not make decisions through them, as well as being relatively deficient in drawing in the emotional value from an object (instead projecting their own emotional value on objects through a valued, unconscious, projection function, Fi) or interpret others' values for an object, subsequently ignoring others' feelings/attatchments for things because the directive is a blindspot for the type. How many IxTps have you known to say something socially inappropriate, inconsiderate, or rude and simply not know that they did, almost pathologically pervasive? I have definitely seen a fair share (myself included). It's easily applicable, if it's general, unlike the hyper-specific descriptions provided for functions now. IxTjs ultimately lack in asserting themselves and making their presence and their force known, and that one is definitely no surprise considering the amount of shy, tenative INFPs and INTPs encountered in the world. The functions must be generalized.

I dont know as much about socionics as i do from jungian typology, but i do agree that inferior function is the blind spot and that a person can never develop it to the point that it would be equal to dominant function. However inferior function can be developed, but usually its still more "black and white" kind of process that doesent process all the small nuances consciously so much and being processed more by the unconscious(than dom is) it is prone on projections because unconscious material(which in the case of brain is also the processing part) is undifferentiated from each other, so this makes the inferior the "gateway" to the unconscious(shadow, anima/animus, complexes etc.). Developing inferior does not mean that you suddenly use it more, developing it means to undifferentiate it from the unconscious and instead using it consciously. But that requires much from ego to put faith in inferior function(as its conflicting material to dom which is favored by ego) and find a working balance between them. But in order to gain exp irl, the ego needs to learn to humble in front of inferior; "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling." — C.G. Jung ;)

As for me, since developing some Fe i got myself into customer service job(and also sell some stuff) where i deal with a lot of people face to face, and am really enjoying it and doing good at it. Especially the elderly people like me there because of good manners, smiley face, knowing what im doing, flexibility etc. Like the other day this elderly lady wanted to donate some old and quite large encyclopedia series that we cant sell(cuz wikipedia) and taking those in is against the rules, but i told her that, but since she had carried them to us from quite far away, i told her that she can leave them to me if she has no use for them, so that she doesent have to carry them back home. Well she understood the situation and was really glad that she didnt have to carry them back home and left happy even tho she couldnt make the donation that she wanted to. And this kind of stuff is what makes people come back and can be the decisive factor when the person ponders on whether or not to come shopping in our store instead of some other, especially with elderly people who put much value in good customer service and stuff like this. Its funny that there is this ISFJ co-worker also in customer service and he would had just said to the old lady that she cant leave the books here because its against the rules. Its funny because an ISFJ should have quite well developed Fe so he should theoretically be less blind to Fe stuff i mentioned doing myself, but he is so focused on rules(and other Si stuff) that it leaves a blind spot in his Fe, while i use my Fe more consciously in many situations. Im sure that he uses his Fe in some situations more than i do, but i just wanted to show that its situational and one can learn to not be blind to inferior all the time. Also one of the major reasons why i enjoy working in my job is because all the profits go into charity, so i get to effect the world positively even beyond making customers happy, so ultimately there is even greater Fe drive that keeps me wanting to have this job. And when it comes to social rudeness/whateverbadthing, i know quite well what is rude and what is not, but i might choose to be rude if the situation calls for it, but that decision i try to do via conscious evaluation of both T and F. I might be blunt to the point of being inappropriate with people closer to me by accident, but its just that i et stuff out more freely if im with people who i know well.

What does socionics say about this sort of stuff?
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I dont know as much about socionics as i do from jungian typology, but i do agree that inferior function is the blind spot and that a person can never develop it to the point that it would be equal to dominant function. However inferior function can be developed, but usually its still more "black and white" kind of process that doesent process all the small nuances consciously so much and being processed more by the unconscious(than dom is) it is prone on projections because unconscious material(which in the case of brain is also the processing part) is undifferentiated from each other, so this makes the inferior the "gateway" to the unconscious(shadow, anima/animus, complexes etc.). Developing inferior does not mean that you suddenly use it more, developing it means to undifferentiate it from the unconscious and instead using it consciously. But that requires much from ego to put faith in inferior function(as its conflicting material to dom which is favored by ego) and find a working balance between them. But in order to gain exp irl, the ego needs to learn to humble in front of inferior; "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling." — C.G. Jung ;)

As for me, since developing some Fe i got myself into customer service job(and also sell some stuff) where i deal with a lot of people face to face, and am really enjoying it and doing good at it. Especially the elderly people like me there because of good manners, smiley face, knowing what im doing, flexibility etc. Like the other day this elderly lady wanted to donate some old and quite large encyclopedia series that we cant sell(cuz wikipedia) and taking those in is against the rules, but i told her that, but since she had carried them to us from quite far away, i told her that she can leave them to me if she has no use for them, so that she doesent have to carry them back home. Well she understood the situation and was really glad that she didnt have to carry them back home and left happy even tho she couldnt make the donation that she wanted to. And this kind of stuff is what makes people come back and can be the decisive factor when the person ponders on whether or not to come shopping in our store instead of some other, especially with elderly people who put much value in good customer service and stuff like this. Its funny that there is this ISFJ co-worker also in customer service and he would had just said to the old lady that she cant leave the books here because its against the rules. Its funny because an ISFJ should have quite well developed Fe so he should theoretically be less blind to Fe stuff i mentioned doing myself, but he is so focused on rules(and other Si stuff) that it leaves a blind spot in his Fe, while i use my Fe more consciously in many situations. Im sure that he uses his Fe in some situations more than i do, but i just wanted to show that its situational and one can learn to not be blind to inferior all the time. Also one of the major reasons why i enjoy working in my job is because all the profits go into charity, so i get to effect the world positively even beyond making customers happy, so ultimately there is even greater Fe drive that keeps me wanting to have this job. And when it comes to social rudeness/whateverbadthing, i know quite well what is rude and what is not, but i might choose to be rude if the situation calls for it, but that decision i try to do via conscious evaluation of both T and F. I might be blunt to the point of being inappropriate with people closer to me by accident, but its just that i et stuff out more freely if im with people who i know well.

What does socionics say about this sort of stuff?

Well in Socionics, the JCF INTP is the LII (Logical Intuitive Introtratim) or the INTj (j/p stands for rational/irrational in Socionics and is lowercase to distinguish from MBTI).

LII -

(Ego Block) 1) Lead Function - Ti 2) Creative Function - Ne
(Super-Ego Block) 3) Role Function - Fi 4) Vulnerable Function (aka PoLR) Se
(Super-Id Block) 5) Suggestive Function (aka Dual-Seeking) - Fe 6) Mobilizing Function (aka Hidden Agenda) - Si
(Id Block) 7) Ignoring Function - Te 8) Demonstrative Function - Ni

The Two valued blocks are the Ego and the Super-Id, the Two unvalued blocks are the Super-Ego and the Id Block. Due to Socionics's focus on intertype relations, there is less focus on developing the Super-Id functions and more focus on finding people who use those functions, specifically the LII's dual, the ESE (ESFj), so that they may be taken care of. I don't particularly believe that the development of these functions should always be left to duals or activity partners (for LII, SEI, ISFp/ISFJ MBTI), though it would be helpful, as I'm working toward melding my understanding of Socionics and JCF due to their complementary nature from originating from Jung's initial work and thus still hold fast to the idea that one can develop the inferior (Suggestive) and the tertiary (Mobilizing) by their own accord. Also, the first two blocks (Ego + Super-Ego) are conscious, the last two are unconscious processes (Super-Id + Id)

The INTj (LII) has 4 weak functions (from the Super-Ego and Super-Id blocks), the strongest of which is Fi, the Role Function, due to its inflationary nature like the Mobilizing/Hidden Agenda Function, Si, while at the same time not being seen as pathetic when inflated (like the Tertiary function) like how Gainan describes the 'Pathetic' Hidden Agenda, but being seen as a somewhat scarily powerful function. In the JCF-Socionics cross-over assessment, the Role Function Fi is equivalent to the the Demonic Personality Complex Fi in JCF, meaning that not only does this function when activated block the lead/dominant function due to being an alternate process of the Ji function, it is used like 'a warhammer' to break those who dare cross it, including the self when expressed extremely negatively. Therefore, the LII doesn't really care about moral causes until it consciously takes up one, which can be rather scarily put forward aggressively to the dismay of Ego Fi types. The Hidden Agenda, on the other hand, is often seen as stronger by the self, but is usually read by others as 'trying-to-hard' 'pathetic' or 'sad', and since this function is Si, it is usually seen as the LII trying to prove it can take care of itself, provide a comfortable environment, and being able to know one's physical/mental limitations, and since it is an unconscious function, it inflates on its own, and often makes its way to the surface unconsciously much like the Dual Seeking Suggestive Function.

The Dual Seeking/Suggestive Function for the LII is Fe, meaning that the LII really enjoys Fe due to its complementary effect on the Ji function of Ti, and seeks to reproduce Fe in the environment but seems to always fail due to a lack of development and experience in the function. The LII, then, will unconsciously try to make the environment socially acceptable, socially comfortable, and full of the exchange of feelings, but will primarily fail due to the fact that the function is primarily unconscious and that the function is rather weak, but, unlike the Hidden Agenda, is taken more seriously by others. The LII will always try to make the environment friendly and warm, but will usually do a somewhat ok job at it.

The absolute weakest function of the LII is Se, the Point (or Path) of Least Resistance (PoLR), also known as the Vulnerable Function. Criticism in this area is taken very seriously and stings, hence the Socionics jargon for attacks on the PoLR being regarded as PoLR hits or hitting the PoLR. Interestingly, like with the Role Function, criticism to the Vulnerable function is unexpected and oftentimes is questioned, "Why is that person criticizing me for that?". Specifically, PoLR Se makes the LII downright incompetent in physical matters such as awareness of the physical environment, assessment of the power in static objects in the environment, the realistic management of resources to achieve realistic goals, and self-assertion/imposing its will on others, and is almost impossible to develop due to its almost insidious nature and how much it is loathed as a personal weakness (in JCF, it is the equivalent to the Shadow Tertiary, Beebe's Trickster Function). Anxiety is often caused from the anticipation of having to use this function in front of others, as using it almost undoubtedly draws negative attention and criticism. Se PoLR, then, to the LII, will always be the weakest spot of the function stack, and will always be hated, but luckily, thanks to Socionics's inter-type relation system, the ESE can defend the LII's Se PoLR with Se Demonstrative, which is an unconscious, somewhat unknown rather than unvalued function in the ESE, meaning that attacks on LII's Se PoLR will empower the ESE's Demonstrative function to drive back the PoLR hitter with great force, as the Demonstrative function is strong and is perceived as aggressive/powerful like the angered Role Function. In return for the aid with Se PoLR, the LII defends the ESE's PoLR of Ni with its own Demonstrative Function of Ni.*

To summarize, Fe is wanted by the LII in the environment but the LII isn't always capable of implementing it itself, attempting to unconsciously make the environment warm, cheerful, and socially comfortable. In my own opinion, however, I still believe that it is possible to reign in some conscious control of the Fe function with development, which isn't covered that much in the Socionics system due to focus on the intertype relation system, instead suggesting that the LII should stick to what it is good at, Ti-Ne, and find an ESE to help with the Super-Id block.

* Use of the Id block functions often draws a surprised response from witnesses, as they are the opposite attitude of the Lead and Creative Functions, often drawing the specific response of "I never knew (s)he could do that as well!".
 
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