• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Jungian Cognitive Functions] judging functions

Doomkid

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Messages
160
Hi everyone, this is my first thread. I have some doubts regarding the whole system hopefully someone can help me out

1 - isn't feeling supposed to be a perceiving function?

2 - people say that judgers like to judge first and perceive later. How can someone judge something that they have not yet perceived?

3 - why introverted feeling is always pointed out as narcissistic and extraverted feeling as altruistic?

4 - why is 70% of the internet (mis)typed as INTJ?

5 - anybody agree that when jung referred to your shadow (inferior function) he wasn't referring to your "shadow functions"(unconscious functions)?


yeah that's it...I'll help you guys out too when I find out something :bye:
 

Werebudgie

I want my account deleted
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
398
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Hi everyone, this is my first thread. I have some doubts regarding the whole system hopefully someone can help me out

Okay, I'll try. Though I don't consider myself an expert, just learning as I go a lot of the time.

1 - isn't feeling supposed to be a perceiving function?

My understanding is that in cognitive function terms, feeling is a judging function. My understanding is that thinking and feeling are judging functions while sensing and intuition are perceiving functions.

2 - people say that judgers like to judge first and perceive later. How can someone judge something that they have not yet perceived?

I can't speak to this directly since my dominant function is perceiving (introverted intuition). But I have discussed this a bit with my Fi-dom partner, and as far as I understand so far (from the outside), Fi acts like sort of a filtering system for incoming information and kind of sorts it before it hits consciousness (or hits it all the way). We've discussed the difference between my internal world, which has this massive inflow of raw perception, and hers, which is much more structured due to the filters.

That said, I'd be interested in hearing from people with dominant judging functions for more of an inside view of how this works.

3 - why introverted feeling is always pointed out as narcissistic and extraverted feeling as altruistic?

IMO probably largely misunderstanding, but with a small grain of truth mixed in regarding scope. As I understand it, introverted feeling is about an individual's values while extroverted feeling is about shared/collective values. If that bit of truth gets distorted, it can look like narcissism vs altruism. But It's not that at all, just a difference in the scope of the value system. I know introverted feeling can be quite altruistic, and I've seen groups with shared values that encourage thinks like "all of us are 'the good people."

4 - why is 70% of the internet (mis)typed as INTJ?

News to me!

5 - anybody agree that when jung referred to your shadow (inferior function) he wasn't referring to your "shadow functions"(unconscious functions)?

That topic appears to be a tangled hairball of a mess in the places I've seen it discussed here on TypeC. But if I had to guess, I would guess that you're onto something.

yeah that's it...I'll help you guys out too when I find out something :bye:

Looking forward to your help somewhere down the line
 

Opal

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
1,391
MBTI Type
ENTP
(1) Thinking/Feeling are judging functions and Intuition/Sensing are perceiving functions. (3) Fi might be seen as narcissistic because it is one's subjective value system, whereas Fe yields to group values and considers the needs and wants of others. I didn't read Werebudgie's post before, but pretty much echoed what he said. Ah well.

(4) Also, in regards to INTJ mistypes, I think it has to do with people considering themselves intelligent and associating Introversion, Intuition, Thinking, and Judging (falsely) with intelligence. INTJs are actually irrational, perceiving types, which is only apparent if you look at the hierarchy of cognitive functions. (there, something Werebudgie didn't say)
 
Last edited:

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
Hi everyone, this is my first thread. I have some doubts regarding the whole system hopefully someone can help me out

1 - isn't feeling supposed to be a perceiving function?

2 - people say that judgers like to judge first and perceive later. How can someone judge something that they have not yet perceived?

3 - why introverted feeling is always pointed out as narcissistic and extraverted feeling as altruistic?

4 - why is 70% of the internet (mis)typed as INTJ?

5 - anybody agree that when jung referred to your shadow (inferior function) he wasn't referring to your "shadow functions"(unconscious functions)?


yeah that's it...I'll help you guys out too when I find out something :bye:

No feeling is a rational(conscious) act of evaluating what something is worth/whether it is agreeable or not. Judging is just another word for consciously evaluating something, jung used the word rational function more than judging, but also used the term judging.

J types have extraverted J function as their preferred J function, this means that sensory data is evaluated as it is perceived and that the judgment is sort of tied to perception of sensory data.

Fi refers to inner experience rather than external perceptions when making a judgment of value, this has caused a lot of people to see Fi as selfish/narcissistic. Many Fi users create an inner experience of other peoples needs and refer to the subjective image of this and often are altruistic because of that. Fe users on the other hand refer to the external perceptions to begin with, so it becomes more automatically to them often, but can ofc also rebel against the needs of others and act selfish. Also many Fe users forget their own needs to large extend and thus find that they need to be more selfish to meet their own needs and not just the needs of others and start to act more selfish.

Shadow means the reected parts of the self which doesent go hand in hand with the ego or have neever been recognized as part of self. In jungian theory this side of self comes mostly through inferior as it is most tied to rest of the shadow, but inferior is not equal to shadow. Ths 8 functio ntheory is some new theory that doesent fit the jungian models very well.
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Hi everyone, this is my first thread. I have some doubts regarding the whole system hopefully someone can help me out

1 - isn't feeling supposed to be a perceiving function?

Feeling and thinking represent values\reference points that one uses to measure things, thereby making judgments on those things' worth of lack thereof... When introverted (internally directed) they measure things against internally defined values\references\benchmarks whereas when extraverted they measure things against externally defined criteria...

T values are more materialist\pragmatic\utilitarian whereas F values are more spiritualist\idealist\moralistic...?

2 - people say that judgers like to judge first and perceive later. How can someone judge something that they have not yet perceived?

I don't think this is true... It should be dependent on your dominant function...

3 - why introverted feeling is always pointed out as narcissistic and extraverted feeling as altruistic?

Judging functions F and T are directly linked to a person's ego... Fi measures a person's self worth against his\her own internal values whereas Fe measures it against external feedback given...

So Fe-ers' self worth is relatively more dependent to other people's feedback than Fi-ers'... which compels Fe-ers' to give more weight to other people's preferences so as to ensure positive external feedback...

A Fi-er may also act altruistic but only for people that he\she (or his\her values) identify with...and may opt to not care about people that he\she doesn't without being fazed about it...

4 - why is 70% of the internet (mis)typed as INTJ?

Based on what?

5 - anybody agree that when jung referred to your shadow (inferior function) he wasn't referring to your "shadow functions"(unconscious functions)?

I don't...
 

Doomkid

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Messages
160
Fi measures a person's self worth against his\her own internal values whereas Fe measures it against external feedback given...

So Fe-ers' self worth is relatively more dependent to other people's feedback than Fi-ers'... which compels Fe-ers' to give more weight to other people's preferences so as to ensure positive external feedback...

see that's the problem I relate to both Fi and Fe
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
see that's the problem I relate to both Fi and Fe

How? Do you feel demoralized when even ordinary people (that you won't ever see again in a life time) treat you with contempt? Do you feel like you have to make sure that everyone likes you? Act like a people-pleaser to that end? If yes, that's Fe...

If you act that way for only a certain group of people that you feel connected to and care about (such as family members, close friends etc.), then that's Fi...
 

Doomkid

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Messages
160
How? Do you feel demoralized when even ordinary people (that you won't ever see again in a life time) treat you with contempt? Do you feel like you have to make sure that everyone likes you? Act like a people-pleaser to that end? If yes, that's Fe...

If you act that way for only a certain group of people that you feel connected to and care about (such as family members, close friends etc.), then that's Fi...

I relate more to Fe in that case, I wish I didn't though...
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
1 - isn't feeling supposed to be a perceiving function?

Feeling and Thinking makes decisions about data. (They evaluate data.)
Sensing and Intuition collect data.

Emotions (which aren't the Feeling functions) can confuse the issues, since emotions "just happen" to us and can feel like perceptions, not conscious choices.

2 - people say that judgers like to judge first and perceive later. How can someone judge something that they have not yet perceived?

It means they can come into a situation with answers already determined, then change the answers based on new information.

But it's important (from a security/competence level, perhaps?) to have an answer in hand -- it's more important to be able to act or clarify -- than it is to explore the external world and be open to more data before determining a potentially better answer like perceivers.

Also note that Judgers can have generated judgments from PAST information. So it's not always necessarily "off," they just are using prior rather than current data. If the situation is the same, then that can work.

3 - why introverted feeling is always pointed out as narcissistic and extraverted feeling as altruistic?

The word choices sound biased to me, since narcissistic typically is negative and altruistic is positive.

Introverted Feeling depends on the individual's desires and values and is inwardly directed; Extraverted Feeling is focused on the group and group values, it's outwardly directed.

Both Feeling functions can be used to help others, as well as determine the boundaries of individual liberties. Just like Thinking values can be used in positive ways for people, even if still essentially "detached".

4 - why is 70% of the internet (mis)typed as INTJ?
Whut?

5 - anybody agree that when jung referred to your shadow (inferior function) he wasn't referring to your "shadow functions"(unconscious functions)?

I haven't read enough Jung recently to be sure of what he meant. I tended to scan it more as the "shadow self" versus "shadow functions," and in a sense the shadow is like the Yang to your Yin and needs to be integrated rather than feared and avoided. I think Aranofsky's movie "Black Swan" is a great example of Nina needing to integrate her personal Shadow side (regardless of function) in order to generate potency in her life.

Jung also talks about opposing forces in the psyche when he refers to the anima and animus.
 

INTP

Active member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
7,803
MBTI Type
intp
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx
Jung also talks about opposing forces in the psyche when he refers to the anima and animus.

Jung talks a lot about opposing forces(or that might not be the word he uses, but its what you are referring to), some of the opposing forces he mentioned are:

persona - anima
ego - shadow
T - F
S - N
dominant function - inferior function
and basically all things that are opposites

the idea of opposites is crucial on understanding jungian psychology because
"There is no consciousness without discrimination of opposites."["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 178.]

The activity of consciousness is selective. Selection demands direction. But direction requires the exclusion of everything irrelevant. This is bound to make the conscious orientation one-sided. The contents that are excluded and inhibited by the chosen direction sink into the unconscious, where they form a counterweight to the conscious orientation. The strengthening of this counterposition keeps pace with the increase of conscious one-sidedness until finally . . . . the repressed unconscious contents break through in the form of dreams and spontaneous images. . . . As a rule, the unconscious compensation does not run counter to consciousness, but is rather a balancing or supplementing of the conscious orientation. In dreams, for instance, the unconscious supplies all those contents that are constellated by the conscious situation but are inhibited by conscious selection, although a knowledge of them would be indispensable for complete adaptation["Definitions," CW 6, par. 694.]

In neurosis, where consciousness is one-sided to an extreme, the aim of analytic therapy is the realization and assimilation of unconscious contents so that compensation may be reestablished. This can often be accomplished by paying close attention to dreams, emotions and behavior patterns, and through active imagination.

Conflict
A state of indecision, accompanied by inner tension. (See also opposites and transcendent function.)


The apparently unendurable conflict is proof of the rightness of your life. A life without inner contradiction is either only half a life or else a life in the Beyond, which is destined only for angels. But God loves human beings more than the angels.[C.G. Jung Letters, vol. 1, p. 375.]

The self is made manifest in the opposites and in the conflict between them; it is a coincidentia oppositorum [coincidence of opposites]. Hence the way to the self begins with conflict.["Individual Dream Symbolism in Relation to Alchemy," CW 12, par. 259.]

Conflict is a hallmark of neurosis, but conflict is not invariably neurotic. Some degree of conflict is even desirable since without some tension between opposites the developmental process is inhibited. Conflict only becomes neurotic when it interferes with the normal functioning of consciousness.

The stirring up of conflict is a Luciferian virtue in the true sense of the word. Conflict engenders fire, the fire of affects and emotions, and like every other fire it has two aspects, that of combustion and that of creating light.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 179.]

When a conflict is unconscious, tension manifests as physical symptoms, particularly in the stomach, the back and the neck. Conscious conflict is experienced as moral or ethical tension. Serious conflicts, especially those involving love or duty, generally involve a disparity between the functions of thinking and feeling. If one or the other is not a conscious participant in the conflict, it needs to be introduced.

The objection [may be] advanced that many conflicts are intrinsically insoluble. People sometimes take this view because they think only of external solutions-which at bottom are not solutions at all. . . . A real solution comes only from within, and then only because the patient has been brought to a different attitude.["Some Crucial Points in Psychoanalysis," CW 4, par. 606.]

Jung’s major contribution to the psychology of conflict was his belief that it had a purpose in terms of the self-regulation of the psyche. If the tension between the opposites can be held in consciousness, then something will happen internally to resolve the conflict. The solution, essentially irrational and unforeseeable, generally appears as a new attitude toward oneself and the outer situation, together with a sense of peace; energy previously locked up in indecision is released and the progression of libido becomes possible. Jung called this the tertium non datur or transcendent function, because what happens transcends the opposites.

Holding the tension between opposites requires patience and a strong ego, otherwise a decision will be made out of desperation. Then the opposite will be constellated even more strongly and the conflict will continue with renewed force.

Jung’s basic hypothesis in working with neurotic conflict was that separate personalities in oneself-complexes-were involved. As long as these are not made conscious they are acted out externally, through projection. Conflicts with other people are thus essentially externalizations of an unconscious conflict within oneself.
 

Opal

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
1,391
MBTI Type
ENTP
I also have a hard time holding back my feelings(Fe)

I think this relates more to Fi. As I understand it Fe users are more self-effacing than personally expressive.
 

Doomkid

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Messages
160
1 - isn't feeling supposed to be a perceiving function?

Feeling and Thinking makes decisions about data. (They evaluate data.)
Sensing and Intuition collect data.

Emotions (which aren't the Feeling functions) can confuse the issues, since emotions "just happen" to us and can feel like perceptions, not conscious choices.

Oh, now I see, emotions are not feelings, but what are feelings exactally then?
 
Top