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AlieNs in a crowded eStablishment

miss fortune

not to be trusted
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:doh: sorry Sub... I should generally shut up... I'm too busy looking on the bright side of having a broken leg and having to adapt with that as well at the moment :blush:

I DO appreciate hanging out with people who will happily let me be me though- that's totally refreshing for a change. :)
 

Ilah

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274
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I identify strongly with all this. (Except for the very last sentance.)

However I am not sure I would use the term adapting. Adapting seems to me that you are changing to fit the situation, but for me it feel more like I am pretending to be someone I am not.

And often times it did not feel to me like I was doing this freely out of a disire to fit in. Its feel more like I was pressured heavily to become more acceptable.

Ilah


Me too whatever, I agree with your point. I'm just extending it by saying that by the same token, it can get confusing when you have to be that way all the time in order to prosper, so that occasionally there's a sense of hollowness, of losing a sense of who one really is. Who would I be if I wasn't adapting to you/him/her?

The person I find I am when I take a solitary retreat for a few days/week is invariably a person who disapproves or dislikes or emerges feeling resentful sometimes, or that things must change, when I get back, as I've adapted too far and accommodated others too much, at the cost of my own inner self.

It would just be nice to have some people around who you can be yourself with, to a greater extent. Rather than people around whom you have to lose your sense of self, to get on with. Fortunately I do have such people in my life :)

And one of them's an S!
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
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Hey, I can take it seriously in content while still having a bit of fun with the title, right?

Me no likey when you change the title. When you consider that this thread was also moved from another forum, it can be hard to track down if you are trying to find it again.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
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Me no likey when you change the title. When you consider that this thread was also moved from another forum, it can be hard to track down if you are trying to find it again.

This is why I have my forum options set to subscribe when I post in a thread. Then, even if it moves or the name changes, you can always find it in your user CP. Thread moves and name changes are just part of the forum landscape.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
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In my experience, I/E has more to do with fitting in than N/S does (I realize you're a strong E, CC, I'm just offering my impression).

I didn't fit in with any group in school. I just wanted to be around normal people (read: like me) but I guess I never found them since I didn't connect non-superficially with anyone at all until university. Even now I have a hard time making friends because I don't have much in common with most people I meet.

My ENTP and ENTJ friends, on the other hand, have very active social lives and professional lives, and don't appear to have any difficulties fitting in. So in my experience the theory doesn't hold up, although I can see how it would in theory.

Another MBTI thing that might have more to do with fitting in: having "sex-opposite " T/F...
 

substitute

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Randomnity, being an extravert means I am strongly oriented towards a need for direct interaction with the external world. It does not mean I was born automatically more sociable or better able to get along with people or be normal.

But having this strong need would mean I'd make more of an effort to LEARN to socialize, than an introvert, who can get by easier without the level and amount of direct external interaction that I need.

It doesn't mean I learn to be normal. It doesn't mean I don't feel awkward, or shy, or isolated; in fact it's a thing many introverts fail to realize, how feeling isolated and alone whilst being simultaneously the centre of attention is quite possible and happens all the time.

It does mean that, for some people, particularly perhaps EN's, in order to fulfill the driving psychological need to extravert, which needs people to extravert with or to, one has to adapt oneself in order to do this successfully. This means that sometimes, depending on just how 'exceptional' (in the sense of weird) I am in comparison to the people I'm with, I have to 'present' as something that's increasingly unlike me, therefore losing myself and coming to dislike myself. hence the hollow, loss-of-self and identity issues I mentioned earlier.

Being an EN can entail a lot of hard balancing work between needing to be true to yourself, whilst interacting intensely with a world that doesn't tolerate your real self.

edit - oh, and plus, I was RUTHLESSLY bullied ALL the way through school, despite being a strong extravert. And I might argue that the isolation this brought on me was a hundred times more painful than it would've been for an introvert. And that pain was something I had to get over in my adult life, in order to have the confidence to do what I do now. IOW, it's not all plain sailing. It's just as hard, but the difference being the extravert has the need, therefore makes the effort to do it, and keeps trying, while the introvert simply accepts the isolation and enjoys their alone time. To a greater extent, though not entirely, of course.
 

Angry Ayrab

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600
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In my experience, I/E has more to do with fitting in than N/S does (I realize you're a strong E, CC, I'm just offering my impression).

I didn't fit in with any group in school. I just wanted to be around normal people (read: like me) but I guess I never found them since I didn't connect non-superficially with anyone at all until university. Even now I have a hard time making friends because I don't have much in common with most people I meet.

My ENTP and ENTJ friends, on the other hand, have very active social lives and professional lives, and don't appear to have any difficulties fitting in. So in my experience the theory doesn't hold up, although I can see how it would in theory.

Another MBTI thing that might have more to do with fitting in: having "sex-opposite " T/F...


You hit it right on the spot. Extroverts do have an easier time socializing and stuff but for N type personalities, this socializing is really superficial. Personally I could sit with anygroup and yak my head off, even be the center of attention and feel so left out. The group really doesn't want to talk about what I say, and if I say it they really think I am joking. My brother an INFJ on the otherhand has it even worst, most people will laugh at my comments and stuff, but since he seems like a quiet guy and when he finally lets his N type thoughts out they look at him like he as snakes crawling out of his head. Our thought process just doesn't mesh. I really suck at explaining this sorry.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
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This is why I have my forum options set to subscribe when I post in a thread. Then, even if it moves or the name changes, you can always find it in your user CP. Thread moves and name changes are just part of the forum landscape.

Thread moves are reasonable. Name changes not so much.
 

The Ü™

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Why in the hell does this thread's title keep changing?
 

entropie

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I can't type other people for shit.

And I tend to think most people are S types, and by most, I mean damn near everybody.

So the question is, the more your "N" happens to be, do you find the less you fit in???

I do.

Thoughts?

Please share!!!

:)

I do, too.

My theisis about this is that something of an experience call is required to judge a person you just got to know or have known for some weeks, to say what type he or she is. But even if you have she or he known for a lifetime they still can surprise you.

If you start with such things as MBTI and categorize people, I think it is the best if you hold your categorizes around one floating point of imagination. You have to think about, what you want. Do you want to be prepared, whenever you meet someone new, to pinpoint him down into one drawer of your cabinet. Or do you still have the courage to say in only those special times that you are completly unaware of what is going on but you are living that magic carpet ride, you are just experiencing. That means, do you desire to be in control, to be not controlled (who does not?) or can you be free of any commitments (who is that naive?).
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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Personally, I see N type people as the cause of most of the trouble on earth. If you look at all the social revolutions and almost any one that came up with a crazy ass new approach to living life that people believed in and died for, it was probaly an N type person..
I agree that N-types are the most prone to being revolutionaries, but the revolutions that they back/instigate, however, vary greatly. There will be your "MLK" ones and there will also be your "Hitlers", so to speak. ;)

Around my intuitive friends, I fit in well. Around others, not so much, but a well-adjusted person can fit in with either crowd.
Can *fit* in with any crowd, are you sure about that?

A well adjusted person will *deal* with whomever they're surrounded by the best way they can, though they will not necessarily "fit" in with them.

Yes, it is the Intuitives who have caused most harm in the world. However, they have also caused the most 'good' in the world. This is the case because major changes stem from great ideas. Non-Intuitives merely have carried out the task of implementing the ideas.
I agree with this.

I think it's important to interject here that 'exceptional' doesn't always have the same connotations it does in academia, as in 'exceptional performance', meaning 'much better than anything else'.

An exception is something that's different, that stands out for whatever reason. Not necessarily because of being better.

To me, it's a fact that N's do stand out as different. I don't think Chick is claiming that we're better. But being in a statistical minority does make something exceptional.
YES!!!

Exceptional from the norm, from the masses, from *most* people.

Not necessarily better nor worse, just plain different.

:huh: I would think that an N with the ability to link things and such would find it easier to adapt to an S society than vice versa... I can go along with the conversations of my S friends completely easily, but they don't have as much patience when I do something like argue that God is merely an idea which is inherently needed by human society to keep people balanced in a manner in which they can interact the best, or some other idea of that sort...

Ns may complain that it's horrible to try and fit in with Ss, but try to think about it flipped and see what you come up with ;) It's easier to adapt to the society that you grew up in (SJ in my case) than it would be for them to adapt to a society that was the opposite or something (for instance an NTP society)

just a thought there... I think that Ns would have it easier- especially ENxPs- with the whole adapting game. I mean, you pull out the stops and let your full random glory shine and people will stare at you oddly, but if you throw a laugh in with it they'll usually laugh along and cut you some slack, deciding that you're joking and they just didn't get it... Adapting isn't that hard though- slightly stifling, but isn't that what polite society is about anyways? :(
But *I* am living in, what is essentially *their* world.

I don't impose shit on them, or anybody else, and even if I did, or wanted to, they would fail to *understand* what the hell I was even talking about.

I could play their game if I wanted to, I could care and talk about what they care and talk about, but, alas I don't want to, so I don't.

And being silenced for an E is quite painful.

yeah, but I've always thought that society was a boring place where EVERYONE has to adapt to be able to fit in to the perfect 50s style mold that's placed out there...

I'll admit that my SJ friends have a lot less trouble, but the SPs I know aren't all that fond of having to use the right napkin and avoid making sex jokes in public either :)

then again, I perhaps went too far and now find adapting to different situations to be a second nature by now :huh:
I'm not talking about having to adapt, nor am I talking about having to adopt and partake in social niceties, (which I actually don't :devil: ).

I am talking about being essentially different than/from the pack.

I am talking about not being excited nor intrigued by the same, or even similar things.

I am talking about feeling shocked, saddened, alienated by this inherent and apparent difference.

It would just be nice to have some people around who you can be yourself with, to a greater extent. Rather than people around whom you have to lose your sense of self, to get on with. !
Yes!

Check out that other thread I linked to a few posts ago - you'll see there a lot of N's talking about how it feels to be an N, and relating to each other very well. I've never come across a Sensor who understands or has experienced feeling that way. I think that's what Chick's complaint rests on really... the sense of isolation that comes from the 'otherness' that I nevertheless don't think she (or I) would want to give up.
Yes.

In my experience, I/E has more to do with fitting in than N/S does (I realize you're a strong E, CC, I'm just offering my impression).

I didn't fit in with any group in school. I just wanted to be around normal people (read: like me) but I guess I never found them since I didn't connect non-superficially with anyone at all until university. Even now I have a hard time making friends because I don't have much in common with most people I meet.

My ENTP and ENTJ friends, on the other hand, have very active social lives and professional lives, and don't appear to have any difficulties fitting in. So in my experience the theory doesn't hold up, although I can see how it would in theory.

Another MBTI thing that might have more to do with fitting in: having "sex-opposite " T/F...
Great points, I agree that T females, and F males might also feel a greater sense of isolation.

But I want to take this moment to explain something that I may have sloppily forgotten to earlier.

I am not talking about, wanting to find people who are just like me, in that they like what I like and are interested in exactly what I am.

I can get along with any person and feel *connected* to them if they discuss the meaning behind whatever they happen to be interested in, and the way(s) and implications of how what they study/care about affect and are tied in to the larger scheme/frame of things.

Randomnity, being an extravert means I am strongly oriented towards a need for direct interaction with the external world. It does not mean I was born automatically more sociable or better able to get along with people or be normal.

But having this strong need would mean I'd make more of an effort to LEARN to socialize, than an introvert, who can get by easier without the level and amount of direct external interaction that I need.

It doesn't mean I learn to be normal. It doesn't mean I don't feel awkward, or shy, or isolated; in fact it's a thing many introverts fail to realize, how feeling isolated and alone whilst being simultaneously the centre of attention is quite possible and happens all the time.

It does mean that, for some people, particularly perhaps EN's, in order to fulfill the driving psychological need to extravert, which needs people to extravert with or to, one has to adapt oneself in order to do this successfully. This means that sometimes, depending on just how 'exceptional' (in the sense of weird) I am in comparison to the people I'm with, I have to 'present' as something that's increasingly unlike me, therefore losing myself and coming to dislike myself. hence the hollow, loss-of-self and identity issues I mentioned earlier.

Being an EN can entail a lot of hard balancing work between needing to be true to yourself, whilst interacting intensely with a world that doesn't tolerate your real self.

edit - oh, and plus, I was RUTHLESSLY bullied ALL the way through school, despite being a strong extravert. And I might argue that the isolation this brought on me was a hundred times more painful than it would've been for an introvert. And that pain was something I had to get over in my adult life, in order to have the confidence to do what I do now. IOW, it's not all plain sailing. It's just as hard, but the difference being the extravert has the need, therefore makes the effort to do it, and keeps trying, while the introvert simply accepts the isolation and enjoys their alone time. To a greater extent, though not entirely, of course.
Yes.

Being an extroverted N sucks because I have a need to interact and connect with people and the people who live in this world, for the most part, I can't seem to connect to/with.

That's why I spend all this time "talking" to/with you guys!!!

:D
 

runvardh

にゃん
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Well, I did have a moment of grace in junior high when I was the fear of the fighting hill and I couldn't keep the girls off of me. Then this one asshole showed up thinking he was the shit; I beat him down and all the guys stopped talking to me. In my frustration I pushed all the girls away and hid inside myself again for all of senior high...
 

miss fortune

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I don't know... there's something sexy about animalistic.. (especially if they have a brain as well! :drool:)

And I suppose my general absence of Fi is a benefit after reading your answer there CC... I think that with the right extroverted functions it's easier for an N to fit in and not care as much... though it still sucks (not saying that there are right or wrong functions of course, just right ones for certain purposes! :) )
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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I don't know... there's something sexy about animalistic.. (especially if they have a brain as well! :drool:)
Hell fuckin' yeah!!!

I never said there was anything wrong with indulging in strictly sensate pleasures, hot sweaty monkey sex certainly being one.

:yes:
 

disregard

mrs
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:rofl1:

CC, please* make a habit of starting interesting threads such as this.

*That's an order
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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You want to explain that, Mr Superior INTP?
sass, I have mad love for you and a few other ISTP's on this site as well.

And when I say I have mad love for you, I mean that I feel a camaraderie with you guys, i.e. I can and do relate with you.

So, some S-type people I really do jive with, most however, I don't.
 
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