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Shadow Type

yeghor

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Sorry to hear all that... I am trying to imagine how I might act myself when I have children in future... How much directing/guiding is too much or too little?

Perhaps it's best to draw a wide boundary with red lines for our children and let them make mistakes and learn for themselves within...and help them recover if they are hurt in the process rather than berating/blaming them for getting hurt..they can't learn (for themselves) witout taking risks...

In any case I guess they were doing their best but did not know any better...time to live for ourselves...:)

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Forever_Jung

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Then how come my perceiving function's predominant direction is inwards?

So both perceiving and judging functions can be used to gather information and interpret gathered data?

Then why the need for a distinction like perceiving and judging...

I was mistaken in saying information receiving = perceiving function, and information interpretation= judging function...

IMO, internally directed functions are our data analysis and interpretation functions whereas our external functions are our informatiın gathering functions as well as the external interaction data layers that we are predominantly attuned to... the external functions denote the content of the data that we internalize from the exterbal world..

If we are born with 2 conscious/active functions, then do we rather externalize the one that we most interact with externally? That is to say, the one that is spoken by our primary caregiver? What if the infant's dom and aux do not overlap with those of the caregivers? Disconnect?

Maybe! My brother and I don't share any functions with our parents. They're ENFJ/ISTP, and we're INFP/ISTJ. I wouldn't say anyone in the family has a bad relationship with another member, but there's a bit of a gulf there. Not sure I get your theories, but I'm curious, anyway. I'll keep reading!
 

yeghor

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Judging functions lie within the ego whereas perceiving functions lie outside the ego but what difference does that make in terms of information gathering and analysis in an infant?

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yeghor

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Maybe! My brother and I don't share any functions with our parents. They're ENFJ/ISTP, and we're INFP/ISTJ. I wouldn't say anyone in the family has a bad relationship with another member, but there's a bit of a gulf there. Not sure I get your theories, but I'm curious, anyway. I'll keep reading!

Thanks :) I'll keep sharing my thoughts...

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yeghor

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Anima/animus:


Shadow:


Also:
"thinking should facilitate cognition and judgment, feeling should tell us how and to what extent a thing is important or unimportant for us, sensation should convey concrete reality to us through seeing, hearing, tasting, etc., and intuition should enable us to divine the hidden possibilities in the background, since these too belong to the complete picture of a given situation."["Psychological Types," ibid., par. 900.] - Jung

Anima description reminded me of ying yang... our persona (conscious self) is aware of it's physiological weaknesses, and desires to merge with it's complementary to alleviate the weakness... it's not about what the self thinks as the universal ideal opposite sex but rather what his conscious self recognizes as feminine (for reproduction purposes not societal definitions) by using itself as the template for masculinity (even though his own version of masculinity may not match that of society)...the anima process runs in the background to identify and notify us of the traits of the best match for us in the opposite sex...not necessarily for long term relationship but for increasing the survival chance of our offspring and continuation of the species...

So that would be Se-Ti or Ti-Se for me...i.e. auxiliary and tertiary functions...

As for shadow I still think it's what's repressed inside of us...inverse of our normal preferences...i.e. mirror image of our functions...Ne-Fi for me...ENFP...

Thanks for the great info...

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yeghor

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Judging functions lie within the ego whereas perceiving functions lie outside the ego but what difference does that make in terms of information gathering and analysis in an infant?

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This makes better sense now...

In an earlier post I proposed that N/S perceiving functions serve as superego when introverted and id when extraverted...so they lie outside ego, which I believe is formed by F/T functions...

So I guess what this means is that we as infants are born with one perceiving and one judging function...the perceiving function I guess serves as the autopilot either as superego when the baby's physiology is fearful of the external environment or as id when it is fearless of the external environment...

And the accompanying judging function serves as a storehouse of ego somehow...So this may mean that the autopilot perceiving function somehow propels the infant in the external environment and develops the judging function thru information gathered from the external environment, thereby gradually forming the infant's values and preferences (i.e. ego)...So the core self is composed of an autopilot perceiving function as well as a judging ego function attached to the former...

I am not sure how this may play out in judging or dominant function moving to dominant position but I guess initially the autopilot (i.e. perceiving function) should somehow be stronger than (dominant over) the ego (judging) function...

So this may explain why we do not have configurations like Ni-Si, Si-Ni...that is to say dominant and auxiliary cannot both be perceiving or judging...

Does that mean the perceiving functions, being the autopilot, reside in the primitive regions of the brain, hence can access unconscious layers of the self (hence the collective unconsciousness\inherited esoteric knowledge of the species?) relatively easily? But only when introverted I believe...

The direction of the perceiving function is later on determined by the fearfulness of the infant of the external environment I guess...

Edit: So the perceiving function should be checking the external object to gather data and record how that object makes the infant feel into the judging reservoir...thereby developing the ego on the way...so the ego becomes more aware and gradually autonomous...
 
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INTP

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Anima description reminded me of ying yang... our persona (conscious self) is aware of it's physiological weaknesses, and desires to merge with it's complementary to alleviate the weakness... it's not about what the self thinks as the universal ideal opposite sex but rather what his conscious self recognizes as feminine (for reproduction purposes not societal definitions) by using itself as the template for masculinity (even though his own version of masculinity may not match that of society)...the anima process runs in the background to identify and notify us of the traits of the best match for us in the opposite sex...not necessarily for long term relationship but for increasing the survival chance of our offspring and continuation of the species...

So that would be Se-Ti or Ti-Se for me...i.e. auxiliary and tertiary functions...

As for shadow I still think it's what's repressed inside of us...inverse of our normal preferences...i.e. mirror image of our functions...Ne-Fi for me...ENFP...

Thanks for the great info...

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Did you read what i said? You make some really different conclusions than what is actually being said..
 

yeghor

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Did you read what i said? You make some really different conclusions than what is actually being said..

I did...

The anima is both a personal complex and an archetypal image of woman in the male psyche. It is an unconscious factor incarnated anew in every male child, and is responsible for the mechanism of projection. Initially identified with the personal mother, the anima is later experienced not only in other women but as a pervasive influence in a man’s life. (The personal mother mentioned here is not about the person's own mother but the female identity he idealized to embrace\protect him and soothe his fears...)

....she is the much needed compensation for the risks, struggles, sacrifices that all end in disappointment; she is the solace for all the bitterness of life. (The anima image is the hope\compensation\salvation for the areas that the self fails in life....)

... Because she is his greatest danger, she demands from a man his greatest, and if he has it in him she will receive it.["The Syzygy: Anima and Animus," CW 9ii, par. 24] (That image embodies an entity that is strong in areas that the self is weak in...and consequently the former is also the weakest in the self's strongest traits...hence the ying\yang...)

The anima is personified in dreams by images of women ranging from seductress to spiritual guide. It is associated with the eros principle, hence a man’s anima development is reflected in how he relates to women. Within his own psyche, the anima functions as his soul, influencing his ideas, attitudes and emotions. (The anima mechanism makes one aware of his inferiorities...and affects his actions...as well as makes him aware of members of either sex that are strong in those areas...in case the other is of the same sex, he is to be avoided, and if of the opposite sex, she is to be copulated with...)

The anima is not the soul in the dogmatic sense, not an anima rationalis, which is a philosophical conception, but a natural archetype that satisfactorily sums up all the statements of the unconscious, of the primitive mind, of the history of language and religion. . . . It is always the a priori element in [a man's] moods, reactions, impulses, and whatever else is spontaneous in psychic life.["Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious," CW 9i, par. 57.] (The anima process is related to the directive to REPRODUCE...therefore it is coded in the very primitive\earlier regions of the brain\nervous system...therefore due to having formed later than the former, ego is unconscious of its affects...as a sidenote, N/S functions may be residing in a similar region...)

The anima . . . . intensifies, exaggerates, falsifies, and mythologizes all emotional relations with his work and with other people of both sexes. The resultant fantasies and entanglements are all her doing. When the anima is strongly constellated, she softens the man’s character and makes him touchy, irritable, moody, jealous, vain, and unadjusted.["Concerning the Archetypes and the Anima Concept,"[ ibid., par. 144.] As an inner personality, the anima is complementary to the persona and stands in a compensatory relationship to it. (I am not sure what he meant by anima being strongly constellated... Does he mean an overactive anima...? When do a man's anima be overactive...? When he's horny? Does this mean his anima shuts down for a while after sex?)

The persona, the ideal picture of a man as he should be, is inwardly compensated by feminine weakness, and as the individual outwardly plays the strong man, so he becomes inwardly a woman, i.e., the anima, for it is the anima that reacts to the persona. But because the inner world is dark and invisible . . . and because a man is all the less capable of conceiving his weaknesses the more he is identified with the persona, the persona’s counterpart, the anima, remains completely in the dark and is at once projected, so that our hero comes under the heel of his wife’s slipper.["Anima and Animus," CW 7, par. 309.] (It is noteworthy to mention here that what he means by persona being an ideal picture of a man is not that the ideal is defined by external\societal factors but internal\personal factors... so it is not a consciously constructed masculine persona... it is the other way around... we base our definition of masculine identity on our matured persona (conscious self, external image) and then the anima process analyzes it to define its complementary version, which then becomes our personal feminine identity, which we project onto other females to check for compatibility...when a match is found it raises hormones and alarms and signals for copulation...)

Hence the character of the anima can generally be deduced from that of the persona; all those qualities absent from the outer attitude will be found in the inner. (Persona is the conscious self i.e. our MBTI type herein...The qualities absent from it do not derive from the unconscious self but the conscious self...the anima process may be residing in the unconscious but it works on the conscious self... so the weaknesses it detects are aimed to alleviate the weaknesses of the conscious self...i.e. the primary self that operates in the external environment...the shadow self is the secondary\backup self that awakens when the primary one cannot cope and collapses under stress...anima aims to alleviate the weakness not in the person but in the offspring, i.e. next generation...it's like an ongoing error correction mechanism in a manufacturing plant...it learns from its mistakes...and tries to produce the product that is best suited to an ever-changing external demand...)


Not directly related but check at 2:00 onwards and specifically at 8:20...I'd recommend watching the entire clip as well...


Edit: The older a code in our physiology is, the farther it is from the awareness of our conscious self (persona) since the conscious self coding is extremely young in comparison to our root coding that carried us all the way to here from billion years ago...the root coding serves as a self-deployment and manufacturing plant for the survival and continuation of all species...it has to be originating from the same start point...

I've always wandered a certain species becoming conscious of itself is a trick\tool employed by the root code so that it can also spread to outside of this world...

Edit 2: It feels as if it isn't we but the root code that is trying survive and withstand time... are we just vessels for that information... are we recording the history or existence of this universe...?
 
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Thalassa

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Sorry to hear all that... I am trying to imagine how I might act myself when I have children in future... How much directing/guiding is too much or too little?

Perhaps it's best to draw a wide boundary with red lines for our children and let them make mistakes and learn for themselves within...and help them recover if they are hurt in the process rather than berating/blaming them for getting hurt..they can't learn (for themselves) witout taking risks...

In any case I guess they were doing their best but did not know any better...time to live for ourselves...:)

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I agree. He had good intentions but did not appreciate me as a separate individual, but an extension of himself. He wanted to tell me who to be, and the reality of who I am clashed with his ideals.

I would have been much more cooperative if he simply said, ok you are not good at math, you are good at English and history, let's talk about what you could do with that. Instead of trying to force me into the military or tell me I was wrong.

It came as a great shock to me, as this was a.man who let me watch horror movies and pick my own books, and bought me albums I wanted for Christmas and birthdays. He only became oppressive and strict when I wanted more physical independence. My earliest rebellion was dating a boy in my church youth group when he said I was too young to date. It's not like I was snorting coke.

But eventually I was pushed way out into doing whatever I wanted or could think of because he was so unreasonable about being authoritarian.

He pushed me away. I only wondered after he was dead if early senility set in for him around my teens. He was like seventy at that point. Well almost seventy. He turned seventy when I was about eighteen.

Maybe he was finally too old to parent after about 65 or so. But he would not relinquish the responsibility to anyone. He would yell at people that I was his because he raised me (it's true he did, and my dad was a jackass so he took it upon himself to be patriarch)...he was my buddy. When I was in high school I used to wear his socks, sweaters and flannel shirts (check my avatar, I was so thrilled when I found it).

Maybe he was just from a generation where parents tell their kids where to work and who to marry. Maybe my paw paw was secretly a Tiger Mother.
 

yeghor

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Sorry for the late reply... My time zone is GMT + 2...

He must have formed some kind of attachment to you (which was not entirely bad) that somehow required you to perform a certain role so that he can feel good about himself...which conflicted with your own preferences...He should have let you be yourself and find your own calling/path...let you be an entity distinct from him...

We all form dependencies on other people... we should be mindful to allow them to distance themselves when that dependency is causing distress to others...
 

TaylorS

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I am not a fan of the "everyone has all 8 functions and 4 of them are shadow functions" theory. In reality there are just 4 functions and the function can have an introverted or extraverted attitude depending on the individual. Te and Ti, for example, are not separate functions, they are extraverted and introverted forms of the same Thinking function, thus a person cannot have both Te and Ti.

In fact, I would argue, based on my reading of Jung, that the Auxiliary and Tertiary functions tend not to have a definite I/E attitude, they can introvert or extravert depending on the demands of the dominant-inferior function axis. So, for example, the function order of an INTP would be Ti-N-S-Fe.

It is your inferior and, to a lesser extent, your tertiary function that are part of the Shadow Complex.

My Inferior function is Te, so I tend to fantasize about ordering the world to fit my values. Strategy games like Civilization also let me express my Te shadow harmlessly (unless you are living in one of the virtual cities I just nuked, BWAHAHAHA!!!).
 

yeghor

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I am not a fan of the "everyone has all 8 functions and 4 of them are shadow functions" theory. In reality there are just 4 functions and the function can have an introverted or extraverted attitude depending on the individual. Te and Ti, for example, are not separate functions, they are extraverted and introverted forms of the same Thinking function, thus a person cannot have both Te and Ti.

I believe it is not as clearcut as that... Check the belowgiven for instance:

WvvgPPal.jpg


In this case, the right side of the vertical axis denotes your normal self (persona, i.e. your primary preferences that you employ to interact with the external world), and the left side is your shadow self, which denotes the traits and preferences that you had to repress in favor of the normal self...

Edit: I noticed that the graph is not appropriate for the point I am trying to make...disregard it for now...

Edit 2 : OK... changed the figure... should serve for the purpose now...


The shadow self I believe is still there inside of us but it's fearful of manifesting itself in the external world hence it can positively manifest itself when it's feeling safe enough such as when we are with intimate, trusted people; or positively\negatively in imaginary/fantasy settings that are not exposed to the external world such as dreams, day-dreams, sexual fantasies and virtual realities such as internet, or negatively when the normal self collapses under stress and cannot function any longer such as when feeling threatened, angry, anxious etc...

The shadow self I believe also contains our frustrations, disappointments, failed hopes and dreams...it's the reservoir into which we supress our undesired feelings about self...because it's suppressed, the built-up pressure usually manifests and relieves itself thru unconscious means if it's not given a natural outlet of expression...

Intimate relationships I guess serve an important purpose to that end in that thru those relationships we can enact our shadow self, act silly, childish, spoiled...and the repressed self can come out and take a breather, thereby releasing the repressed pressure...

In this sense, the presence of the shadow self (opposing personality or whatever else it is called) means that we all have the ability to act in either direction of the vertical axis of the abovegiven graph...It's just that the shadow side of the axis is weaker in strength wrt to the normal side...

What I cannot imagine at the moment is whether the transition between our normal self and shadow self is rapid in all cases or gradual...Perhaps our normal self is the preference that we use when our psyche is at rest\relaxed...but when I am with trusted friends I can easily keep shifting between the two, act silly\playful one moment and serious the next...so reconciling with the shadow self seems to give some kind of ambidexterity to the individual...It's just one of them seems to take preference depending on the external circumstance...

So how to not get embarrassed with the shadow self (traits) and exhibit them with greater confidence externally? That is to say, how to let go of shame...so shadow self contains (self) shame it seems...

In fact, I would argue, based on my reading of Jung, that the Auxiliary and Tertiary functions tend not to have a definite I/E attitude, they can introvert or extravert depending on the demands of the dominant-inferior function axis. So, for example, the function order of an INTP would be Ti-N-S-Fe.

It may be that all 4 functions have extraverted and introverted versions and our normal self denotes the the direction we are more adept at using them...

I for instance have Ti-tert and feel awkward, clumsy (childish) when trying to use Te, i.e. when trying to verbalize my thoughts to people...A Ti-dom for instance would still feel awkward perhaps when using Te but it would still be much more capable than my Te...

I don't have a clear consclusion about the auxiliary and tertiary not having external/internal preference at that moment...But to me, the interchangebility of the function directions feel like 2 distinct entities chatting with each other, so they may be INFJ normal self and ENFP shadow self chatting...So does that mean when trying to use the opposite version of a preferred function, I along with all my preferred functions switch to the shadow persona or I can just switch just one function's direction at will...

I think it is the former cause when using my shadow Te-tert, my thoughts keep going into several different directions and lose coherence (shadow Ne-dom), I feel self-conscious (shadow Fi-aux?)...hence I can work better when I use Te-tert in writing form...as it is a much less "in the moment" process then speaking...

It is your inferior and, to a lesser extent, your tertiary function that are part of the Shadow Complex.

My Inferior function is Te, so I tend to fantasize about ordering the world to fit my values. Strategy games like Civilization also let me express my Te shadow harmlessly (unless you are living in one of the virtual cities I just nuked, BWAHAHAHA!!!).

Based on what you described as your (dark) desire, the desire would fit the personality of an ENxJ... So that means your shadow self is an ENxJ... Do you want to order the world in Te (utilitarian\pragmatic) terms or Fe (moralistic\idealistic) terms...? That would give the key your true shadow self...And by taking the mirror image of it, you can find your true normal self...

Based on your description of desiring to order the world thru Te, your shadow self may indeed be an ExTJ, an ENTJ if your N typing is correct, which would make your normal self an INTP...

Do you think social rules, gestures and conventions are unnecessary or are you irritated when you are expected to perform Fe gestures like smiling, greeting people etc...? And do you at the same time idealize people who are adept at Fe gestures...? Are you for instance sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex who are high in Fe...?
 
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yeghor

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Some more info on the topic...

“the gold in the shadow”: Though the shadow is popularly referred as the “dark side”, is merely everything that the Ego does not identify with and represses FOR ANY REASON WHATSOVER.

Individuation: integrating one’s shadow

Confrontation with the shadow is important in the process of individuation, but for this to be fruitful, the result must be that the conscious integrate the shadow into itself, rather than the shadow takes control of the conscious. For Jung, if the conscious (the ego) represses the unconscious (the shadow and other complex/archetypes such as the anima/animus) too hard, then the unconscious may backlash and take over the conscious: this is a psychotic episode. Therefore the core goal of Jungian analysis is to become aware of one’s unconscious, and integrate parts of it into the self while maintaining control over it. This process is called Individuation and can be achieved through Jungian analysis but also other methods: interpretating one’s dreams, studying myths, or making art for example.

It seems to me that coming to terms with one's shadow requires letting go of shame...

Working with dream material (see my prior post) is key to comprehending and dealing creatively with the shadow. The shadow tends to appear in dreams as a figure of the same sex as the dreamer, but Jung draws a distinction between the personal shadow and the anima or animus (see my prior post), symbolized in dreams as the opposite sex. Typically, it is the subjective experience of the shadow or evil and its ego-dystonic effects (or, as in the case of the hypercivilized Dr. Jekyll, an inexplicable malaise or vague sense that something vital is missing in us) which motivates the person to seek psychotherapy and spurs one toward new growth, maturation, balance, integration, wholeness and individuation. Indeed, in many ways we need the shadow, and must therefore learn to develop a more conscious and constructive relationship to it.

Also, the belowgiven topic may also be related to the instances where people connected with their shadow

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49940
 
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Eric B

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I believe it is not as clearcut as that... Check the belowgiven for instance:

WvvgPPal.jpg


In this case, the left side of the vertical axis denotes your normal self (persona, i.e. your primary preferences that you employ to interact with the external world), and the right side is your shadow self, which denotes the traits and preferences that you had to repress in favor of the normal self...
Yes; the more I think of it, the more that "Mental Muscles" way of expressing it seems best.
There are really four functions, and the eight function-attitudes are generated by the two orientations.

You can still speak of the eight Xi/Xe units, and they probably do still connect with the archetypal complexes as specified by Beebe, and the brain hemispheres as specified by Lenore, but they're really four perspectives, and the way the ego divides them, we tend to prefer either one orientation or the other, but the other is still there, just lower in consciousness; they're not different "things" from each other.
 

yeghor

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Self Actualization

Peak experiences. All of Maslow's subjects reported the frequent occurrence of peak experiences (temporary moments of self-actualization). These occasions were marked by feelings of ecstasy, harmony, and deep meaning. Self-actualizers reported feeling at one with the universe, stronger and calmer than ever before, filled with light, beautiful and good, and so forth.

This might be related to connecting with the shadow... and individuation process...

Edit: I rarely feel deeply and cry anymore... but only at times of connecting with my shadow I feel a deep blissful feeling and can cry... I think it's coming from my shadow Fi function...

Is this how Fi-doms and aux feel most of the time?
 
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Evo

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[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION]

Ok so I asked some people what I am like at work...and they replied "Daria."

:laugh:

Maybe I project INTP more than I think

Anywho, I don't believe in all this. I think it applies to enneagram a little. Where you can tell what someone's type is according to their aspirations. It comes out more in that system imo. It's not always correct though.

In MBTI I really believe that a Shadow is just what is hidden by your dominant function...and depending on how developed you are....maybe there's shadows behing your dom and aux.

But that's it.



Also [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] do I have to friend you to see this blog you're talking about? I've already read Eric B's.
 

Evo

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[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] nvm I found it, I was in a rush b4.
 

Eric B

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Here's another way of putting it I'm putting together to explain the differentiation of functions as attitudes:

The dominant function will take on the dominant attitude. Some of it will “spill over” into the opposite attitude.
The auxiliary will tend to fall into the opposite attitude as well. (This will not be as pronounced as the dominant preference). The inferior will tend to by default become associated with the opposite attitude.
The tertiary will not be as initially, naturally oriented one way or the other, but will happen to be oriented to the dominant attitude by the Puer complex that forms around it.

So type is defined by a dominant function in a particular attitude, and balanced by the opposite attitude and refined by an auxiliary function of the opposite kind of process, and can be classed as opposite in attitude.
Beyond those two, everything else is a reflection, (and likely controlled by the complexes) and does not have to be seen as rigidly fixed in attitude.
 

yeghor

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Here's another way of putting it I'm putting together to explain the differentiation of functions as attitudes:

The dominant function will take on the dominant attitude. Some of it will “spill over” into the opposite attitude.
The auxiliary will tend to fall into the opposite attitude as well. (This will not be as pronounced as the dominant preference). The inferior will tend to by default become associated with the opposite attitude.
The tertiary will not be as initially, naturally oriented one way or the other, but will happen to be oriented to the dominant attitude by the Puer complex that forms around it.

So type is defined by a dominant function in a particular attitude, and balanced by the opposite attitude and refined by an auxiliary function of the opposite kind of process, and can be classed as opposite in attitude.
Beyond those two, everything else is a reflection, (and likely controlled by the complexes) and does not have to be seen as rigidly fixed in attitude.

By attitude, you mean function's direction of action?
 

Eric B

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