Irritated by Te!

[SD45T-2]

 

[yeghor]

I like your questions.

Would it not be the same mechanism as why you feel as you do towards Te?

Thanks....the point is for people besides me to comment on it as well...

Te and Fe both to me sound like they talk "down" to people and both can at times feel instructive, critical, boasting, entitled, infantalizing, restricting, suffocating. I have more tolerance however for Te, as it typically judges information rather than people. These are two things I keep separated as well.

This is unexpected...cause Te is INFPs' inferior function...Overt use of Te should be something that INFPs are most vulnerable to and most likely be irritated\offended with...

I am vulnerable to overt use of Se communication for instance cause it's my inferior function...

Edit: To clarify, I admire non-threatening, unharmful use of Se but abhor its use for negative\self-serving purposes such as bullying, intimidation etc...I guess it should be the same with Te for an Te-inferior person...

Fe additionally can sound manipulative since it uses emotions to achieve goals, something I personally find distasteful.

It's hard for me to imagine this, cause I do not do that or I am not aware of doing that...How does the manipulativeness thing manifest itself?

Does the Fe user sound overdramatic like hysterical? Or Does he\she try to incite guilt trips or similar things in others?

Yes it can.

Not that anyone who's speaking it THINKS they sound like that. Both Je functions, esp in the dom and aux positions, sound like this on a daily basis.

As a Fe-aux I can notice when someone is irritated with it...and I can withdraw to give them some leeway or choose not to insist on it if it's not that crucial...

Te-aux may perhaps act the same way....Perhaps Ni gives some kind of awareness over the auxiliary function?

I was more like wondering what Te-doms or Fe-doms feel\think when they bombard others with it? Do they feel\think they are in the right (or something else) for doing that?

Why the shrug?

 

[yeghor]

I think a major point of miscommunication between Fe-Ti'ers and Fi-Te'ers is that the latter doesn't view the passive-aggressive, manipulative from of Fe as keeping the peace. I would much rather someone be upfront with things they don't like about me. Things aren't going to get better with this cloak-and-dagger type of socialising. The underlying problems are still there. If we're upfront about things, at least we have a chance of reaching an understanding.

It may have something to do with conflict aversion perhaps?

 

[yeghor]

...The purpose of Te in terms of socialization is to quickly and efficiently apply knowledge, to show the realistic application of knowledge ("what's the point if we know how the aerodynamics of a plane work if we don't have a plane or aren't building a plane? Let's apply this knowledge somehow"). Essentially, Te is logical directness based not on subjective opinion like what I am utilizing here, but on justifiable, objective evidence....

Te used improperly sounds to me like another form of authoritarianism\fascism just like Fe...It still categorizes and organizes people using different criteria than Fe...In dominant position, both may become dictatorial...in that they may not allow people to object to the imposed classification and organisation...

 

[yeghor]

How to differentiate between Te and Se?

 

[yeghor]

Well, he is right. When I seek to manipulate, this is exactly what I do. It's highly effective.

How does Fe manipulation work exactly?

 

[animenagai]

It may have something to do with conflict aversion perhaps?

I'm sure it is. We just don't believe that bending around the bush so much ultimately creates less conflict.

 

[yeghor]

I'm sure it is. We just don't believe that bending around the bush so much ultimately creates less conflict.

Less conflict for whom?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Te used improperly sounds to me like another form of authoritarianism\fascism just like Fe...It still categorizes and organizes people using different criteria than Fe...In dominant position, both may become dictatorial...in that they may not allow people to object to the imposed classification and organisation...

Yep, it's our own interpretation of each others' trickster functions. We feel double-bound by them, as if they are something that ensnares us into what appears to us as a "childish" game, thereby making us see those who use our trickster functions in the dominant position as A. Evil (due to it being allied/tied to the function we find truly evil, the daemon), and/or B. Bad Children (Beebe Archetype Model, Trickster Function).

I'm going to also steal your question to [MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] and say that the difference between Te and Se is that one is a rational function and the other is an irrational function. Se looks at only what is present and tangible, Te looks at observable facts (to base its decision making on, and these facts can be predictable hypotheses and their probability in the near future when powered by Ni, or specific lessons of the past to base decision making on when powered by Si). Se's job is to collect present outside information to be fed into a Ji function, which bases decision making off of reasoning abilities rather than external facts/data like a Je function would. An Se-Ji or Ji-Se mechanism works primarily to categorize current experiences into subjective frameworks built by the user's reasoning skills. Te-Pi mechanisms, in contrast, base their decisions on objective data that yields feasible results, but at the same time, contrast the observable data with past data (Pi, dichotomized into specific (Si) and general (Ni)) to build a feasible structure upon which to make logically (pertaining to externally objective rather than internal logical reasoning) correct and sound decisions.

 

[á´…eparted]

How does Fe manipulation work exactly?

Manipulating the social world around it and how people navigate it. Nearly everyone is bound by social rules (implicit and explicit ones) and rarely deviate from it. If one can tweak around what those things are through various means, you can get people do what you want/need.

 

[yeghor]

...I'm going to also steal your question to [MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] and say that the difference between Te and Se is that one is a rational function and the other is an irrational function. Se looks at only what is present and tangible, Te looks at observable facts (to base its decision making on, and these facts can be predictable hypotheses and their probability in the near future when powered by Ni, or specific lessons of the past to base decision making on when powered by Si). Se's job is to collect present outside information to be fed into a Ji function, which bases decision making off of reasoning abilities rather than external facts/data like a Je function would. An Se-Ji or Ji-Se mechanism works primarily to categorize current experiences into subjective frameworks built by the user's reasoning skills. Te-Pi mechanisms, in contrast, base their decisions on objective data that yields feasible results, but at the same time, contrast the observable data with past data (Pi, dichotomized into specific (Si) and general (Ni)) to build a feasible structure upon which to make logically (pertaining to externally objective rather than internal logical reasoning) correct and sound decisions.

Thanks...but I was more like wondering how to differentiate the use of Se and Te in the video clip of Al Pacino...It felt to me what they were using was more like Se rather than Te...

Manipulating the social world around it and how people navigate it. Nearly everyone is bound by social rules (implicit and explicit ones) and rarely deviate from it. If one can tweak around what those things are through various means, you can get people do what you want/need.

I have neighbours whom I think are Fe-doms...I feel as if they are casting this net around me to pull me into their framework and get enmeshed with me but I want to remain at a distance and not entirely get integrated into their framework...which they took offense at...they want all those around them to act as if they were big tribe, and they want to be at the center of the tribe...calling the shots...I don't know if this is conscious or more like a reflex...

They fail to understand why someone would want to remain outside their framework...and they get suspicious of people who want do that...maintain some kind of defensiveness\guardedness or passive-agressiveness towards them...I think they feel safe once they have people integrated into their own framework...they know where the other stands by that way...by doing that, they somehow assimilate the other into the system...

What if they have low Fe? Like in ENTJs, ESTJs, ENTPs, ESTPs, ISTJs, INFPs, ISFPs...Does that mean they do not care about Fe values? How then? Thru members of their family who are Fe-sensitive?

 

[á´…eparted]

I have neighbours whom I think are Fe-doms...I feel as if they are casting this net around me to pull me into their framework and get enmeshed with me but I want to remain at a distance and not entirely get integrated into their framework...which they took offense at...they want all those around them to act as if they were big tribe, and they want to be at the center of the tribe...calling the shots...I don't know if this is conscious or more like a reflex...

They fail to understand why someone would want to remain outside their framework...and they get suspicious of people who want do that...maintain some kind of defensiveness\guardedness or passive-agressiveness towards them...I think they feel safe once they have people integrated into their own framework...they know where the other stands by that way...by doing that, they somehow assimilate the other into the system...

What if they have low Fe? Like in ENTJs, ESTJs, ENTPs, ESTPs, ISTJs, INFPs, ISFPs...Does that mean they do not care about Fe values? How then? Thru members of their family who are Fe-sensitive?

Any type can do that really. It's more common for Fe doms because it's how they navigate the world, and not all do it with malicious intent. It doesn't phase me, but it's because I am an expert at dogging that sort of thing. If someone tries to manipulate me, I usually sense it and slip out of it. Partly because I have the ability to be really manipulative, that I see it in others when they try to do it.

That's their problem if they take offense (assuming that they actually are) for you not conforming to what they are proposing. If they do, screw em and just let them get their undies in a bunch over it.

I also find it interesting that a lot of people have been claiming that Fe is passive aggressive more so than any other function. It can be, butI see it in Fi too with the same level of frequency (it's an F thing in general). They just do it in a different manner with different motivations. When Fi goes passive aggressive is when I get really irritated. Fe I just laugh at and move on. It's partly because my manner of dealing with PA behavior is to be blunt and expose it verbally to everyone around. It shuts it down fast, and most Fe folk will stop at that point because they realize it won't work anymore. Where as Fi will usually get pissed for someone doing that, and try to do it more in spite of it, which makes me get more and more aggressive with it until they cave.

The best way to deal with passive aggression is with direct aggression.

 

[animenagai]

Less conflict for whom?

Less conflict for the very same group. Let's say you and I had some small disagreements and rather than just telling me respectfully and openly, you became emotionally manipulative and passive-aggressive. Chances are, I'll see what you're doing, and it's just going to annoy me even more. If what you're thinking is 'I really don't appreciate it when you leave a pile of unwashed dishes in the morning', why can't you just say that. Why do you have to say 'I was going cook something, it's a shame that some people just don't respect other people's space...'? What if I have a sleep disorder that makes it hard for me to wake up in the morning and I just don't have time for dishes? What if I am allergic to things that are quick in the morning like toast or muesli? Why can't we just talk to each other like mature adults and put all the relevant issues on the table? Snarky comments here and there will just annoy me more, and more, and more, until one day it all comes out. As an Fi user, I just think parts of Fe ends up leading to more conflict, which is ironic, since that's what the Fe user was trying to avoid in the first place.

 

[yeghor]

Less conflict for the very same group. Let's say you and I had some small disagreements and rather than just telling me respectfully and openly, you became emotionally manipulative and passive-aggressive. Chances are, I'll see what you're doing, and it's just going to annoy me even more. If what you're thinking is 'I really don't appreciate it when you leave a pile of unwashed dishes in the morning', why can't you just say that. Why do you have to say 'I was going cook something, it's a shame that some people just don't respect other people's space...'? What if I have a sleep disorder that makes it hard for me to wake up in the morning and I just don't have time for dishes? What if I am allergic to things that are quick in the morning like toast or muesli? Why can't we just talk to each other like mature adults and put all the relevant issues on the table? Snarky comments here and there will just annoy me more, and more, and more, until one day it all comes out. As an Fi user, I just think parts of Fe ends up leading to more conflict, which is ironic, since that's what the Fe user was trying to avoid in the first place.

Actually Fe should render Fe-user sensitive to other people's social (moral) feedback about them...It doesn't always have to be like in the example you give...Perhaps negative experiences come more to the forefront...That person in your example might as well tell you something like "It was your turn to wash the dishes...if you won't abide by this we should split.." etc...The style of delivery depends on assertiveness of the individual I guess..

Why do you leave a pile of dishes unwashed in the first place though? You are expecting the other party be more assertive about the problem whereas you could've easily become more proactive about it... Like "well, I won't be able to wash the dishes because of X, Y, Z....I should better give him/her a headsup so he/she won't get offended...and better make it up to him/her..."

It sounds as if you are expecting the other party to initiate the negotiations whenever the latter perceives a problem...So it sounds as if you are basically saying "it's your problem, not mine..." You are not assuming ownership of it?

In either case, aren't you getting informed about the presence of the problem(s) despite the style of delivery? So (why) don't you do something to address the "dishes" problem as well as the "style of delivery" problem instead of allowing it to repeat and build-up?

 

[yeghor]

Any type can do that really. It's more common for Fe doms because it's how they navigate the world, and not all do it with malicious intent. It doesn't phase me, but it's because I am an expert at dogging that sort of thing. If someone tries to manipulate me, I usually sense it and slip out of it. Partly because I have the ability to be really manipulative, that I see it in others when they try to do it.

That's their problem if they take offense (assuming that they actually are) for you not conforming to what they are proposing. If they do, screw em and just let them get their undies in a bunch over it.

The problem is that they try get even somehow for that perceived offense, like sulking or making snide remarks about my lifestyle etc...Like they do not consider me non-hostile and continue with the hostilities...

I also find it interesting that a lot of people have been claiming that Fe is passive aggressive more so than any other function. It can be, butI see it in Fi too with the same level of frequency (it's an F thing in general). They just do it in a different manner with different motivations. When Fi goes passive aggressive is when I get really irritated. Fe I just laugh at and move on. It's partly because my manner of dealing with PA behavior is to be blunt and expose it verbally to everyone around.

Can you give an example on how you expose the Fe user?

It shuts it down fast, and most Fe folk will stop at that point because they realize it won't work anymore. Where as Fi will usually get pissed for someone doing that, and try to do it more in spite of it, which makes me get more and more aggressive with it until they cave.

Fi gets stubborn about it...and it gets to display itself more externally in the case of Fi-aux I believe...

How do you deal with such instances specifically, i.e. when the other doesn't want to respect your boundary?

 

[á´…eparted]

The problem is that they try get even somehow for that perceived offense, like sulking or making snide remarks about my lifestyle etc...Like they do not consider me non-hostile and continue with the hostilities...

Can you give an example on how you expose the Fe user?

Fi gets stubborn about it...and it gets to display itself more externally in the case of Fi-aux I believe...

How do you deal with such instances specifically, i.e. when the other doesn't want to respect your boundary?

You have two options. You either keep working at it, or ignore them outright and keep as much distance from them as possible, which is actually quite easy to do. Don't let comments like that bother you. So what if they think that? It's not right, you know it, and they aren't harming you in any other regard.

Well, I just explained how. I can't think of any explicit examples at the moment. What I do anyway is call the person on their behavior if they are being a problem.

When others don't respect my boundaries I either back off completely so they have no power/say over me anymore, or I get more aggressive to establish the boundaries until they back off, or I use others around me to bolster/justify my courses of actions to get them to stop infringing. This is all done in such a way that the events themselves are blunt/direct, but the whole goal that I seek is as covert as possible.

Fe doms get a bad rap for wrongly assuming they're drama starters/stirrers. I almost never have social problems in my life from friends, family, or strangers. At the end of the day for all my bumps and hiccups, I'm highly adept at navigating the social world. When they do appear, I shut them down quite quickly using the methods I explained above. Really, all one needs to do is keep a stiff spine and a kind demeanor/goal.

 

[animenagai]

Actually Fe should render Fe-user sensitive to other people's social (moral) feedback about them...It doesn't always have to be like in the example you give...Perhaps negative experiences come more to the forefront...That person in your example might as well tell you something like "It was your turn to wash the dishes...if you won't abide by this we should split.." etc...The style of delivery depends on assertiveness of the individual I guess..

Why do you leave a pile of dishes unwashed in the first place though? You are expecting the other party be more assertive about the problem whereas you could've easily become more proactive about it... Like "well, I won't be able to wash the dishes because of X, Y, Z....I should better give him/her a headsup so he/she won't get offended...and better make it up to him/her..."

It sounds as if you are expecting the other party to initiate the negotiations whenever the latter perceives a problem...So it sounds as if you are basically saying "it's your problem, not mine..." You are not assuming ownership of it?

In either case, aren't you getting informed about the presence of the problem(s) despite the style of delivery? So (why) don't you do something to address the "dishes" problem as well as the "style of delivery" problem instead of allowing it to repeat and build-up?

OK, so there's a few things.

1. Yes we're just talking about certain cases of Fe. Obviously, not all Fe pisses me off. None of the functions, in their entirety, always piss me off.

2. The dishes case is just something I made up on the spot, so don't get too hung up on the example. What I was trying to say is that there may be legitimate reasons for me to do things you don't like, such as being really short on time or whatever, and sometimes, we just don't expect other people to react in a certain way. We all have different values, something that is really small and insignificant to me, may be important to you, and if there are other reasons why I may put things on hold, I may end up annoying you without thinking it would. We are not mind readers, I can't always predict what would upset you. If your response is a snarky passive-aggressive one, then often assumes certain things in its emotional manipulation and undertones. But that's exactly the problem, by not being clear and direct, you start off with an accusation -- one that may not be fair -- before you give us a chance to see that you are upset, apologise, and explain what's going on.

3. @Taking ownership of a problem, just see above. Once again, we are not mind-readers. There's plenty of room for misunderstandings and miscommunication, as well as less than ideal circumstances, and just differing values. Chances are, the Fi-Te user will be more willing to talk about any problem upfront. That's been my whole point all this time.

I can probably explain this all better, but I'm really tired, and it's quite late. Tldr: sometimes we may not realise that something bugs you, or there may be legitimate reasons why that thing can't be done away with. When Fe is at its worse, it makes too many tacit assumptions which ends up just angering the Fi-Te user.

 

[yeghor]

You have two options. You either keep working at it, or ignore them outright and keep as much distance from them as possible, which is actually quite easy to do. Don't let comments like that bother you. So what if they think that? It's not right, you know it, and they aren't harming you in any other regard.

Well, I just explained how. I can't think of any explicit examples at the moment. What I do anyway is call the person on their behavior if they are being a problem.

Fe doms get a bad rap for wrongly assuming they're drama starters/stirrers. When others don't respect my boundaries I either back off completely so they have no power/say over me anymore, or I get more aggressive to establish the boundaries until they back off, or I use others around me to bolster/justify my courses of actions to get them to stop infringing. This is all done in such a way that the events themselves are blunt/direct, but the whole goal that I seek is as covert as possible.

I almost never have social problems in my life from friends, family, or strangers. At the end of the day for all my bumps and hiccups, I'm highly adept at navigating the social world. When they do appear, I shut them down using the methods I explained above. Really, all one needs to do is keep a stiff spine and a kind demeanor/goal.

Thanks...the problem for me is that my Ni gives too much weight to what seeps in thru my Fe...Ni obsesses over it...I can't shake it off easily but am trying to get better at it...

I was wondering about the exposing thing...How do you expose them without getting angry or sounding insulting\condescending...?

People, you can chime in with how Te can sound irritating as well...

 

[Evo]

It feels instructive, critical, boasting, entitled, infantalizing, restricting, suffocating...

Yea, I'd say, that's probably how some people see me irl.

I don't think any of these things are relevant though. I am going to get my point across when I'm speaking to someone cause that's the reasoning for communicating in the first place. I expect them to do the same. And if that means that they need to communicate to me that I need to tone down my critiquing or what ever else they feel I'm doing, then they are going to have to straight out tell me. I do not speak the language of emoting. It would take me more than 5 mins per facial expression to get what emotional vibe is coming along with that. And that frankly is a waste of my time and would deplete all my energy. But it's not like we want to be bad ppl. At least not me lol. It's just not my priority to spend time absorbing ppl's vibes...when they could just tell me! That is a way more efficient route!

What do you, Te users, feel when communicating with people thru Te? How does the process and the other person look to you from your perspective?

I'm just thinking about the other person's thoughts. Trying to follow their logic behind what they've said. My interactions are usually quick. I don't spend time examining the other person, other than their thought process.

Can it have something to do with Ti-tert or Fe-aux...?

Probably a combination of both. Ti most likely thinks Te is shallow. Ti examines thought at a much deeper level with much more categorizing and context than Te does. Then Fe will automatically notice when I am disagreeing with someone. Especially when I'm not so discrete about it. They don't like that.

Does Fe voice evoke a similar reaction in Fi users? If yes, how?

Fe does not have the patience for Fi. Again Fi wants to mull emotions over, compare contexts, sift through categories....things that Fe just doesn't have time for. Fe has to stay in the present moment. It needs to process the emotions in real time to be effective. To know exactly what to say, when to say it, an to whom. And it is very good at that, btws.

Does Fe sound as if it was morally superior\entitled or something else?

Fe sounds like it thinks it knows better, that's all. Which is fine, it's just the way it is. In a lot of cases it's quite useful. It's not always true though. Just like every other function, Fe doesn't have solid grounding to take charge in every aspects of an individual's life.

 

[yeghor]

Yea, I'd say, that's probably how some people see me irl.

I don't think any of these things are relevant though. I am going to get my point across when I'm speaking to someone cause that's the reasoning for communicating in the first place. I expect them to do the same. And if that means that they need to communicate to me that I need to tone down my critiquing or what ever else they feel I'm doing, then they are going to have to straight out tell me. I do not speak the language of emoting. It would take me more than 5 mins per facial expression to get what emotional vibe is coming along with that. And that frankly is a waste of my time and would deplete all my energy. But it's not like we want to be bad ppl. At least not me lol. It's just not my priority to spend time absorbing ppl's vibes...when they could just tell me! That is a way more efficient route!

You are not attuned to the Fe layer of incoming and outgoing data...Do you notice people get offended with it or do they have to tell you straight out so as to make you notice?

The bolded part requires Te in the other person I guess...I wish I had more of it...If they are Fe-heavy, they would try to communicate thru Fe and perhaps you might not pick up on it?

I'm just thinking about the other person's thoughts. Trying to follow their logic behind what they've said. My interactions are usually quick. I don't spend time examining the other person, other than their thought process.

Probably a combination of both. Ti most likely thinks Te is shallow. Ti examines thought at a much deeper level with much more categorizing and context than Te does. Then Fe will automatically notice when I am disagreeing with someone. Especially when I'm not so discrete about it. They don't like that.

Fe does not have the patience for Fi. Again Fi wants to mull emotions over, compare contexts, sift through categories....things that Fe just doesn't have time for. Fe has to stay in the present moment. It needs to process the emotions in real time to be effective. To know exactly what to say, when to say it, an to whom. And it is very good at that, btws.

So Fi\Ti is more nuanced\intricate...like a custom made work of art whereas Fe\Te is more geared towards the masses...like generic mass-produced work of (pseudo)-art...

Fe sounds like it thinks it knows better, that's all. Which is fine, it's just the way it is. In a lot of cases it's quite useful. It's not always true though. Just like every other function, Fe doesn't have solid grounding to take charge in every aspects of an individual's life.

Yes, it's only a "part" of the solution...