Some interesting type patterns I've noticed.

[Alea_iacta_est]

Here are some interesting patterns I have divulged recently with some crossovers from Socionics and MBTI JCF (Yes, the functions aren't exactly the same, but interesting nonetheless). Let's see what we can dissect from this.

INTJ: Ni - Te - Fi - Se - Ne - Ti - Fe - Si

INTJ ISFP ENTP ESFJ
(Ni-Te) - (Fi - Se) - (Ne - Ti) - (Fe - Si)
Identity Activity Contrary Conflictor
Hero Child Anti-Hero Trickster

INTp - ISFj = Activity (Hero-Child = Complementary)
ENTp - ESFj = Activity (Antihero-Trickster = Complementary)

INTp - ENTp = Contrary (Hero-Antihero complex, Antihero archetype extinguishes Hero archetype)
ISFj - ENTp = Conflicting (Child-Antihero complex, Antihero archetype goes against valued child archetype)

INTp - ESFj = Conflicting (Hero-Trickster complex, Trickster archetype goes against valued Hero archetype)
ISFj - ESFJ = Contrary (Child-Trickster complex, Trickster archetype extinguishes Child archetype)

As [MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] arranged this in his incredible mountain of information on Jungian Archetypes:

If this is accurate, what is the Hero personality of Ni to the daemon of Si in Socionics?

INTJ daemon type = ISFJ (Si (daemon)- Fe (trickster))

INTJ ISFJ
(Ni-Te) (Si-Fe)

INTp - ISFp = Super-Ego relations

What about the child type and the senex/witch type (introverted Antihero)?

ISFP INTP
(Fi-Se) (Ti-Ne)

ISFj - INTj = Super-Ego relations

INTJ - ISFP - ENTP - ESFJ

INTJ = Melancholic
ISFP = Phlegmatic
ENTP = Sanguine
ESFJ = Choleric
------------------------------------------------------------
ENTJ - ESFP - INTP - ISFJ
(Te-Ni) (Se-Fi) (Ti-Ne) (Si-Fe)
Identity Activity Contrary Conflictor
Hero Child Antihero Trickster

Therefore, this is true for all types.

Hero-Hero = Identity

Hero-Child = Activity

Hero-Antihero = Contrary

Hero-Trickster = Conflictor


But if we also break it down further (and assume that each of the four personality mechanisms keep the same Kiersy Temperament and all in relation to the INTp):

Hero (INTp) - Parent (ENTj) = Mirror

Child (ISFj) - Anima/Animus (ESFp) = Mirror

Antihero (ENTp) - Witch/Senex (INTj) = Mirror

Trickster (ESFj) - Daemon (ISFp) = Mirror
-------------------------------------------------------
Hero (INTp) - Daemon (ISFp) = Super-Ego

Parent (ENTj) - Trickster (ESFj) = Super-Ego

Child (ISFj) - Witch/Senex (INTj) = Super-Ego

Anima/Animus (ESFp) - Antihero (ENTp) = Super-Ego
-------------------------------------------------------
Hero (INTp) - Trickster (ESFj) = Conflicting

Parent (ENTj) - Daemon (ISFp) = Conflicting

Child (ISFj) - Antihero (ENTP) = Conflicting

Anima/Animus (ESFP) - (INTj) = Conflicting
-------------------------------------------------------
Hero (INTp) - Anima/Animus (ESFp) = Duality

Parent (ENTj) - Child (ISFj) = Duality

Antihero (ENTp) - Daemon (ISFp) = Duality

Witch/Senex (INTj) - Trickster (ESFj) = Duality
-------------------------------------------------------
and more.

Any commentary someone is willing to add?

EDIT: I left in some temperament information with the INTJ, but didn't include one for the ENTJ example, so:

ENTJ - ESFP - INTP - ISFJ

ENTJ = Choleric
ESFP = Sanguine
INTP = Phlegmatic
ISFJ = Melancholic

DOUBLE EDIT: Here's a link to Eric B's function archetype website.

TRIPLE EDIT: Just realized that the ENTJ's 4 types' temperaments (ENTJ - ESFP - INTP - ISFJ) have the inverse of the INTJ's 4 types' temperaments (INTJ - ISFP - ENTP - ESFJ)

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Some more data pieces regarding Temperaments:

Choleric Functions: Fe, Te (ExxJ)
Melancholic Functions: Ni, Si (IxxJ)
Phlegmatic Functions: Fi, Ti (IxxP)
Sanguine Functions: Ne, Se (ExxP)

Rational: Choleric and Phlegmatic
Irrational: Melancholic and Sanguine

INTJ: Ni - Te - Fi - Se - Ne - Ti - Fe - Si

Melancholic - Choleric - Phlegmatic - Sanguine - Sanguine - Phlegmatic - Choleric - Melancholic

How interesting, it's the same order as Eric B's archetype chart.

ENTJ: Te - Ni - Se - Fi - Ti - Ne - Si - Fe

Choleric - Melancholic - Sanguine - Phlegmatic - Phlegmatic - Sanguine - Melancholic - Choleric

ENTP: Ne - Ti - Fe - Si - Ni - Te - Fi - Se

Sanguine - Phlegmatic - Choleric - Melancholic - Melancholic - Choleric - Phlegmatic - Sanguine

INTP: Ti - Ne - Si - Fe - Te - Ni - Se - Fi

Phlegmatic - Sanguine - Melancholic - Choleric - Choleric - Melancholic - Sanguine - Phlegmatic

ExTP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Pe - Ti)
ExTJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Te - Pi)
IxTP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Ti - Pe)
IxTJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Pi - Te)

ENxP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Ne - Ji)
INxP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Ji - Ne)
ENxJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Je - Ni)
INxJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Ni - Je)

ESxP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Se - Ji)
ISxP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Ji - Se)
ESxJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Je - Si)
ISxJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Si - Je)

ExFP = Sanguine/Phlegmatic (Pe - Fi)
IxFP = Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Fi - Pe)
ExFJ = Choleric/Melancholic (Fe - Pi)
IxFJ = Melancholic/Choleric (Pi - Fe)

Polar dichotomies:

Melancholic ----- Sanguine (Irrational Pole)
Choleric ----- Phlegmatic (Rational Pole)

Melancholic - Moody, emotionally unstable, hard-working
Sanguine - Joyful, emotionally stable, procrastinating/playful

Choleric - Angry, emotionally unstable, hard-working
Phlegmatic - Apathetic, emotionally stable, procrastinating/playful

Melancholic dominants suppress or lack Sanguine qualities
Choleric dominants suppress or lack Phlegmatic qualities
Sanguine dominants suppress or lack Melancholic qualities
Phlegmatic dominants suppress or lack Choleric qualities

EDIT: Hmmm, they don't necessarily lack certain qualities; ISTPs, for instance, can appear Choleric and they are Phlegmatics in this system, perhaps their Choleric tendencies only arise during periods of stress.

Revision:
Melancholic dominants become Sanguine under distress
Sanguine dominants become Melancholic under distress
Choleric dominants become Phlegmatic under distress
Phlegmatic dominants become Choleric under distress

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Temperaments and Tertiary function/Relief function/Child archetype

INTJ = Ni - Te - Fi - Se

Melancholic - Choleric - Phlegmatic - Sanguine

When disengaged from the Hero personality, the Ego inflates the relief function to obtain the mantle of the dominant personality, meaning that we engage this function when we are under strain or when we are looking to find "child-like" satisfaction. The INTJ is a melancholic dominant with Ni, so when there is too much pressure or the INTJ would like to get that "child-like" satisfaction, the user engages Fi, a phlegmatic function. Through this, we can ascertain that the INTJ becomes phlegmatic when engaging this function, and since this pertains to Fi, indulging of emotions and emotional fantasies (Hero-Child complex cooperation? Ni-Fi?). The INTJ will appear Phlegmatic instead of the usual Melancholic, meaning that they will become noticeably apathetic and uncaring about the external world, in favor of the inner emotional realm that has unconsciously taken control of the usual melancholic personality.

Melancholic Dominants (Ni,Si) become Phlegmatic (Fi,Ti) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.
Choleric Dominants (Te, Fe) become Sanguine (Ne, Se) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.
Phlegmatic Dominants (Ti, Fi) become Melancholic (Ni, Si) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.
Sanguine Dominants (Ne, Se) become Choleric (Te, Fe) when seeking to escape strain or indulge "child-like" satisfaction.

The Most Melancholic function is Ni (due to its innate neuroticism and obsession with the esoteric)
The Most Sanguine function is Se (due to its innate impulsitivity and obsession with gathering sensory details)
The Most Phlegmatic function is Fi (due to its innate apathy to everyone excepting the self and obsession with emotional self-indulgence rather than internal logical consistency of Ti)
The Most Choleric function is Te (due to its innate abrasiveness and blunt nature compared to the softened Fe)

Specifically (with regards to Eric's descriptions of Tertiary Relief functions),

Ni (More Melancholic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of simulations, where it is deemed as an entertaining task by the ISxP but one that is not useful in the end compared to the raw absorption of sensory information from the environment of parent Se.

Si (Less Melancholic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of memories and past events, where it is deemed as entertainingly nostalgic by the INxP but one that is not useful in the end compared to the metaphorical and analogical Ne parent.

Ne (Less Sanguine) indulgence would include the child-like linking of ideas, the utilization of metaphors, similes, analogies to explain perceptions, where it is deemed as an entertaining process but one that is not useful compared to parent Si perception in the ESxJ.

Se (More Sanguine) indulgence would include the child-like indulgence of physical desires, the constant need to do something in the environment to satiate the base desires of the personality (absorption of experience), where it is deemed as an entertaining process but reckless to the Parent Ni perception in the ExTJ.

Te (More Choleric) indulgence would include the child-like gathering of factual and statistical information, the building of structured information that can be applied soundly to reality, where it is deemed as an entertaining but less suitable approach to decision making than that of the valued parent Fi in the ExFP.

Fe (Less Choleric) indulgence would include the child-like empathetic decision making that aids others, the courteous, harmonious environment that can make others feel at ease and comfortable, where it is deemed as an entertaining but unfavorable way of making decisions (based on others compared to self) compared to the logical approach of parent Ti in the ExTP.

Ti (Less Phlegmatic) indulgence would include the child-like analysis of perception information to create logical principles, the building of categories and sweeping structures with little basis in reality, which is seen as an entertaining alternative but somewhat idealistic to the parent Fe, which is more grounded, externally focused, and others-oriented in the IxFJ.

Fi (More Phlegmatic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of inner emotions to build internal values, the fine-tuning of emotions and the exploration of deeper, visceral emotions, which is seen as an entertaining process but ultimately useless in the search for clear objectivity and useful purpose of external, grounded Te in the IxTJ.

 

[INTP]

This; "Si (Less Melancholic) indulgence would include the child-like exploration of memories and past events, where it is deemed as entertainingly nostalgic by the INxP but one that is not useful in the end compared to the metaphorical and analogical Ne parent." doesent really fit me and rest seems like misuse of the term archetype and what seems like an exel sheet of a function theory posted in forum form.

Also if inferior function = anima, then what

In general, the extraverted man has an introverted anima,
while the introverted woman has an extraverted animus, and
vice versa. This picture can change through psychological
work on oneself, but these inner images are commonly projected
onto persons of the opposite sex, with the result that
either attitude type is prone to marry its opposite. This is
likely to happen because each type is unconsciously complementary
to the other.

 

[Eric B]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] You're trying to tie the classic temperaments to the eight function attitudes?
I find that they tie to Interaction Styles and Keirsey temperaments.

Here's how the functions would end up fitting in my correlation:

Te as dominant will be Choleric (In Charge Interaction Style, and pure Choleric when paired with Ni).
Fi as dominant will be Phlegmatic (or Supine; Behind the Scenes, and pure when paired with Ne).
Se will be Sanguine (SP) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Fi).
Si will be Melancholic (SJ) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Te).

Ne will also be Sanguine (Get Things Going Interaction style) when dominant
Ni will also be Melancholic (Chart the Course) when dominant

Anima/animus dynamics will correspond to some extent with this, because Phlegmatic or Supine (Fi) will look up to Choleric (Te), and Choleric will like leading Supine.
Likewise Sanguine (Se) Melancholic (Ni) OR
Sanguine (Ne) Melancholic (Si)

Ti and Fe are so "enigmatic" when it comes to temperament; being "all over the place", pairing together opposites or near opposites (like Sanguine and Melancholy).
In dom. or aux. they can be any Interaction Style, and either pragmatic (Ti) or cooperative (Fe) Keirseyan temperament.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION] You're trying to tie the classic temperaments to the eight function attitudes?
I find that they tie to Interaction Styles and Keirsey temperaments.

Here's how the functions would end up fitting in my correlation:

Te as dominant will be Choleric (In Charge Interaction Style, and pure Choleric when paired with Ni).
Fi as dominant will be Phlegmatic (or Supine; Behind the Scenes, and pure when paired with Ne).
Se will be Sanguine (SP) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Fi).
Si will be Melancholic (SJ) in any preferred position (and pure when dominant with aux. Te).

Ne will also be Sanguine (Get Things Going Interaction style) when dominant
Ni will also be Melancholic (Chart the Course) when dominant

Anima/animus dynamics will correspond to some extent with this, because Phlegmatic or Supine (Fi) will look up to Choleric (Te), and Choleric will like leading Supine.
Likewise Sanguine (Se) Melancholic (Ni) OR
Sanguine (Ne) Melancholic (Si)

Ti and Fe are so "enigmatic" when it comes to temperament; being "all over the place", pairing together opposites or near opposites (like Sanguine and Melancholy).
In dom. or aux. they can be any Interaction Style, and either pragmatic (Ti) or cooperative (Fe) Keirseyan temperament.

Interesting, I didn't think about tying it to the interaction styles, and I forgot to include Supine as well. The way I reasoned this is through the more Socionics way of temperament with IP, IJ, EP, and EJ being Melancholic, Phlegmatic, Sanguine, and Choleric respectively, through this, I concluded that Je would be Choleric, Ji would be Phlegmatic, Pe would be Sanguine, and Pi would be Melancholic.

 

[Eric B]

I'm very leery of mapping to Socionics, because j/p is different from MBTI's J/P.
J/P figures in the temperaments, along with T/F; for "people vs task" (whether informing/directing of the Interaction Styles or motive/structure of the Keirsey temperaments). EJ, IJ, EP, IP actually correspond to the Interaction Styles, for N's.
But J/P refers to extraverted function (which will figure in the outward behavior of temperament, as extraverting a judgment will tend to be more task focused, and extraverting perception will be less so).
But for Socionics, it's about dominant function. That only matches for extraverts. Then, you have those who claim it still matches for introverts (or some introverts), which then changes the definitions of the function-attitudes.

"Temperament" in Socionics is probably not even meant to be correlated with the classic temperaments.

 

[Evo]

"Temperament" in Socionics is probably not even meant to be correlated with the classic temperaments.

Yea I stopped comparing Socionics and MBTI cause of this.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

My bad for making some obvious missteps in this guys. Probably shouldn't be directly relating Socionics, MBTI JCF, and Classical Temperaments in the first place.

 

[011235813]

My bad for making some obvious missteps in this guys. Probably shouldn't be directly relating Socionics, MBTI JCF, and Classical Temperaments in the first place.

I actually think that Je = choleric, Ji = phlegmatic, Pe = sanguine and Pi = melancholic makes perfect sense. Especially for the extroverted functions.

 

[INTP]

I was looking at this four temperaments thing more closely since i never could see which one fit me and found this thing that explained this issue;

"the(four) temperaments come to clearest manifestation in childhood, between approximately 6 and 14 years of age, after which they become subordinate (though still influential) factors in personality." -wiki

But what i dont understand is why use some ancient system made for typing kids?

 

[Eric B]

I actually think that Je = choleric, Ji = phlegmatic, Pe = sanguine and Pi = melancholic makes perfect sense. Especially for the extroverted functions.

Only very loosely so.
There are eight function-attitudes and 16 types defined by pairs of them, so the way four temperaments map across them likely involves blends of temperaments (4×4), and thus combinations of functions, not directly functions by themselves like that.

Some functions or dichotomies correspond to temperament factors. I/E, obviously (the original "hot/cold"). Ne or S+F is people focus ("wet") and Ni or S+T is task focus ("dry"). Si is directly one version ("conative") of Melancholic, Se is Sanguine, N+F is Phlegmatic (diplomatic) and N+T is Choleric (strategic).

I was looking at this four temperaments thing more closely since i never could see which one fit me and found this thing that explained this issue;

"the(four) temperaments come to clearest manifestation in childhood, between approximately 6 and 14 years of age, after which they become subordinate (though still influential) factors in personality." -wiki

But what i dont understand is why use some ancient system made for typing kids?

That quote came from this one guy (Lievegoed, Bernard) who did a book on anthroposophy (Man on the Threshold. Had never even heard of him). Still, he's simply saying when they become clear, and that they become subordinate, though still influential. So we discuss them as part of type, where the functions are the main focus. Yet, different combinations of functions (and attitudes) correspond to temperaments.
I simply go back to the ancient names, because it shows a common parallel between "social" skills (Interaction Styles) and "leadership" skills (Keirsey), and sometimes there is "cross-talk" so to speak, between them. (Like ESF, ENP and SP are all Sanguine, and so a person may confuse between those groups, and the SP profiles for instance, are often permeated by social aspects of the Sanguine so that an ISP may not feel he fits in, etc. It's good to identify that common temperament that can be represented in different type letter combinations).

And continuing what I said to senza, since types are blends of temperaments, INTP happens to be a blend of diametric opposites (INP Phlegmatic and NT Choleric), so that's why it may be hard for you to fit one. Even to look at both separately, you still might not identify, since the blended temperaments modify each other. (INTP's often identify with Melancholic, but that's the introversion of Phlegmatic plus the critical "task focus" of the Choleric).

 

[INTP]

And continuing what I said to senza, since types are blends of temperaments, INTP happens to be a blend of diametric opposites (INP Phlegmatic and NT Choleric), so that's why it may be hard for you to fit one. Even to look at both separately, you still might not identify, since the blended temperaments modify each other. (INTP's often identify with Melancholic, but that's the introversion of Phlegmatic plus the critical "task focus" of the Choleric).

Well i dont really agree that INP = phlegmatic and NT = choleric. It seems more that choleric = E and traits from many E types mixed into one and phlegmatic = I and traits from all I types mixed into one.

It just seems like some outdated system that doesent really do its job properly and i dont see the point of using this sort of flawed system with anything. I mean it might work with kids who have not developed their personality much and i suspect that when this system was invented people in general didnt have so differentiated personalities.

Also the point of all good personality theories is that they measure aspects of personality that are reasonably stable over time, this four temperaments system clearly isnt stable over time and this isnt the only problem with it.

I just dont see the value of the system and it doesent even explain anything, so whats the point?

 

[Eric B]

Again, that "not stable over time" is that one person's theory. While behaviors will vary as a person matures, the overall temperament characteristics (judged by "expressive" and "responsive" needs) remain pretty much the same.

E is either Sanguine or Choleric. It's the common "expressive" pole they share in common. I is the "low responsive" pole for either Phlegmatic or Melancholic. There's also the other factor, of people/task, which connects to T/F and J/P in an alternating fashion.
The point is what I explained above. Type can be expressed as two temperament matrices (same four temperaments) blended together, and it would help by narrowing the categories, instead of all the new names given to different type groups.

 

[Evo]

E is either Sanguine or Choleric. It's the common "expressive" pole they share in common. I is the "low responsive" pole for either Phlegmatic or Melancholic. There's also the other factor, of people/task, which connects to T/F and J/P in an alternating fashion.
The point is what I explained above. Type can be expressed as two temperament matrices (same four temperaments) blended together, and it would help by narrowing the categories, instead of all the new names given to different type groups.

I'm glad you explained this. I had read your blog and looked over the websites...and I'm sure you've mentioned this before, but this has finally given me enough context to really understand the bottom line! Thank you!

At some point or another, I will reread the OP to compare. Now that I have a better understanding.