Ni doms and crazy people

[Azure Flame]

So Ive noticed several infjs and intjs Ive met both on and offline will sometimes devolve into being crazy people. They seem to have a system or world in their head and they will talk themselves in circles and rationalize the world into being only what they want it to be. In this state talking to them is like knocking on the window to the house while they are sitting inside pondering. The outside world almost doesnt even exist. TS Eliot comes to mind.

From an Se standpoint this doesnt look healthy at all.

Are these people beyond helping? Or do I just need to grab them by the ear and make them climb a few mountains with me? Thoughts?

 

[RaptorWizard]

The mountaintop forge of Prophecy is transcended and revolved to Earth.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

The mountaintop forge of Prophecy is transcended and revolved to Earth.

Strong first post.

 

[badger055]

Are these people beyond helping?

yes

 

[greenfairy]

I advocate the hiking option.

 

[Azure Flame]

lol ty badgerbro

 

[LuciJr]

So Ive noticed several infjs and intjs Ive met both on and offline will sometimes devolve into being crazy people. They seem to have a system or world in their head and they will talk themselves in circles and rationalize the world into being only what they want it to be. In this state talking to them is like knocking on the window to the house while they are sitting inside pondering. The outside world almost doesnt even exist. TS Eliot comes to mind.

From an Se standpoint this doesnt look healthy at all.

Are these people beyond helping? Or do I just need to grab them by the ear and make them climb a few mountains with me? Thoughts?

Jung said that Ni by itself can potentially justify everything...

In one sense, Ni dooms are very mature and they have a lot to think about.
In another sense, they are incredibly silly, and a Se guiding hand always helps them.

 

[Cygnus]

So Ive noticed several infjs and intjs Ive met both on and offline will sometimes devolve into being crazy people. They seem to have a system or world in their head and they will talk themselves in circles and rationalize the world into being only what they want it to be. In this state talking to them is like knocking on the window to the house while they are sitting inside pondering. The outside world almost doesnt even exist. TS Eliot comes to mind.

From an Se standpoint this doesnt look healthy at all.

Are these people beyond helping? Or do I just need to grab them by the ear and make them climb a few mountains with me? Thoughts?

You need to make them glue pom-poms to popsicle sticks and take any random thrift shop object and smoke it like a bong and make them go on Sonic the Hedgehog Furry Fckfest and listen to Sigur Ros and complain to DJ Arendee about his money-makin companies and tap their fingernails against glass and drink frozen wheatgrass juice.

 

[Opal]

You need to make them glue pom-poms to popsicle sticks and take any random thrift shop object and smoke it like a bong and make them go on Sonic the Hedgehog Furry Fckfest and listen to Sigur Ros and complain to DJ Arendee about his money-makin companies and tap their fingernails against glass and drink frozen wheatgrass juice.

Poetic/therapeutic gold. Sure you're not an INFJ?

So Ive noticed several infjs and intjs Ive met both on and offline will sometimes devolve into being crazy people. They seem to have a system or world in their head and they will talk themselves in circles and rationalize the world into being only what they want it to be. In this state talking to them is like knocking on the window to the house while they are sitting inside pondering. The outside world almost doesnt even exist. TS Eliot comes to mind.

From an Se standpoint this doesnt look healthy at all.

Are these people beyond helping? Or do I just need to grab them by the ear and make them climb a few mountains with me? Thoughts?

In general I'd say let them do their thing. It's like being interrupted in the middle of a project you're immersed in (an ongoing project with an ever-broadening scope). Is there a specific context in which Ni-Xi looping interferes with your plans?

That said, external influences can break the cycle if someone's short-circuiting and not just processing things, so playing counselor for a minute might be welcome, depending on the INJ.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I'd think it's best to let them build their walls, then hope they can find a way to tear it down a la Roger Waters.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

So Ive noticed several infjs and intjs Ive met both on and offline will sometimes devolve into being crazy people. They seem to have a system or world in their head and they will talk themselves in circles and rationalize the world into being only what they want it to be. In this state talking to them is like knocking on the window to the house while they are sitting inside pondering. The outside world almost doesnt even exist. TS Eliot comes to mind.

From an Se standpoint this doesnt look healthy at all.

Are these people beyond helping? Or do I just need to grab them by the ear and make them climb a few mountains with me? Thoughts?

If that's happening, the INxJ is in either an Ni-Ti or Ni-Fi loop, meaning that Fe or Te (respectively) aren't doing their job, which creates logic like this:

Healthy INTJ:
Ni: I think aliens are orbiting the planet, observing us at all times.
Te: That's irrational, there is no tangible evidence.
Ni: You're right

Unhealthy INTJ:
Ni: I think aliens are orbiting the planet, observing us at all times.
Fi: That actually makes sense to me.
Ni: It's true then.

Same thing for the INFJ except replace Te with Fe and Fi with Ti.

Interestingly, the loops simulate a paranoid disorder (Ni-Fi) and schizotypal behavior/beliefs (Ni-Ti), and the reason they get so twisted is because they verify their insights with the introverted judging function, which isn't truly grounded in reality and instead verifies whether the insight makes sense or not.

 

[cafe]

I'm reasonably functional. Nobody said I also had to be sane. Screw sane.

 

[Ginkgo]

Don't forget the possibility that bashing the door down will just have them retreating into the cellar.

 

[PuddleRiver]

I'm reasonably functional. Nobody said I also had to be sane. Screw sane.

Damn right.

 

[á´…eparted]

My mother is a living stereotype of an INFJ gone insane. It's sad.

She can not use critical thinking. The main issue is she thinks that she can, but she can't. She believes that the govnerment is ruled by the illumanti, they are trying to start a mass world genocide and are going to put people in to FEMA camps. She thinks vaccines are making is sick and killing people. She thinks the CDC is corrupt and is spreading misinformation. She thinks that naturopathic "medicine" is the only thing anyone should use. She thinks there are aliens watching the planet, and that the government is hiding them from us. I could go on, and on.

She comes from a noble start point, but it goes south almost at the starting gate.

She is completely beyond helping in every way. She's been slowly but surely loosing long term friends and family (me) because of it. It's more insane people that are replacing it, making the situation worse.

 

[cafe]

My mom thinks she saw a drone hovering over her in her apartment complex's swimming pool last summer. She is afraid of Sharia law coming to America. She regularly has visions of Jesus. She punched my sister-in-law in the stomach while praying for her to be healed. Well, she was punching the disease, not my sister-in-law but my sister-in-law was surrounding the disease so I'm sure it didn't feel great. She doesn't trust doctors and thinks they do more harm than good (medical errors are the eighth leading cause of death in the US, but she didn't actually research it or anything).

My mom is not an INFJ. I think she's an XXFP. She just ain't entirely right in the head. Mental illness is not unusual in my family. My great-grandfather died from drinking Lysol and my great Aunt spent some time in a mental hospital and had shock treatments, etc. My mom shot herself in the chest two years before I was born. So far, I'm just depressive, have ADHD, and maybe a little OCD. I've decided when I go crazy for real, I'm going to do protests and sit-ins and stuff. But I have to wait until the kids are all out of school because my husband spends most of his workday out of town and sleeps days.

 

[BlackDog]

If that's happening, the INxJ is in either an Ni-Ti or Ni-Fi loop, meaning that Fe or Te (respectively) aren't doing their job, which creates logic like this:

Healthy INTJ:
Ni: I think aliens are orbiting the planet, observing us at all times.
Te: That's irrational, there is no tangible evidence.
Ni: You're right

Unhealthy INTJ:
Ni: I think aliens are orbiting the planet, observing us at all times.
Fi: That actually makes sense to me.
Ni: It's true then.

Same thing for the INFJ except replace Te with Fe and Fi with Ti.

Interestingly, the loops simulate a paranoid disorder (Ni-Fi) and schizotypal behavior/beliefs (Ni-Ti), and the reason they get so twisted is because they verify their insights with the introverted judging function, which isn't truly grounded in reality and instead verifies whether the insight makes sense or not.

The schizotypal behavior/beliefs thing is funny; I've noticed in the past that sometimes I'll become almost genuinely convinced that everything around me is unreal, a stage, and as a result I'll be a little funny. A few times I've been in this mood out and about, and I'll come across someone familiar, and I'll say, "Hi, how are you", and he'll say "Good, you?", and I'll almost choke responding "good" in return because it all seems too funny and formulaic, as if I'm in a movie or something.

Is it this kind of 'reality is a stage' mood you are talking about, or something more insidious?

On an unrelated note, are you on PerC with the same username? I was on there until recently, when I realized I was wasting too much time so I went on a campaign to get a two-week ban. They permabanned me. The PerC mods are absurdly serious about people joking about getting banned, and former members who were banned, etc. Like my life depends on them, or something... I was the guy who emphemerality was trying to type at the same time as you.

 

[Azure Flame]

My mother is a living stereotype of an INFJ gone insane. It's sad.

She can not use critical thinking. The main issue is she thinks that she can, but she can't. She believes that the govnerment is ruled by the illumanti, they are trying to start a mass world genocide and are going to put people in to FEMA camps. She thinks vaccines are making is sick and killing people. She thinks the CDC is corrupt and is spreading misinformation. She thinks that naturopathic "medicine" is the only thing anyone should use. She thinks there are aliens watching the planet, and that the government is hiding them from us. I could go on, and on.

She comes from a noble start point, but it goes south almost at the starting gate.

She is completely beyond helping in every way. She's been slowly but surely loosing long term friends and family (me) because of it. It's more insane people that are replacing it, making the situation worse.

sounds infp. INFJ insanity is more like rationalizing everything to be good. "Im not suicidal, Im just exploring the depth of my psyche!" "Im not codependent, Im just polyamorous!"

 

[Ene]

So Ive noticed several infjs and intjs Ive met both on and offline will sometimes devolve into being crazy people. They seem to have a system or world in their head and they will talk themselves in circles and rationalize the world into being only what they want it to be. In this state talking to them is like knocking on the window to the house while they are sitting inside pondering. The outside world almost doesnt even exist. TS Eliot comes to mind.

From an Se standpoint this doesnt look healthy at all.

Are these people beyond helping? Or do I just need to grab them by the ear and make them climb a few mountains with me? Thoughts?

So, how does one know that they need help? What if they're satisfied with their lives and ways and it's working for them. I mean TS Eliot made some amazing poetry that might not have been produced had someone "helped" him out of his insanity? I say as long as no one is being dismembered or murdered or abused, let the insane have their fun. I might even want to be insane someday. I've been thinking about it. , you know, as a career option. I've been known to draw the shades on people who peck on my windows while I'm pondering.

Maybe [MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION] has a valid point. Is it possible that they only need help in the eyes of those who can't see where they're coming from?

 

[Opal]

sounds infp. INFJ insanity is more like rationalizing everything to be good. "Im not suicidal, Im just exploring the depth of my psyche!" "Im not codependent, Im just polyamorous!"

I don't have any evidence to refute this, but what about INFJ's personality makeup suggests positivity? Ti's rationalization? I know I've been in Ni-Ti loops before that were far from reassuring, though I'm probably not INFJ.

Also, it's interesting hearing these schizo- stories, they sound frighteningly familiar.