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Fe users rebelling against social norms

Stephano

Almöhi
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Aug 8, 2012
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Jung saw Fe users as people who align their opinions and views towards social norms. A painting is beautiful because other people see it this way, morals and ethics are also based on society's norms, decisions are made objectively.
However, the point is that Jung's description leaves an open room for false interpretations and misconceptions. Why did/do claimed Fe users like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or artists like Marilyn Manson rebel against established norms, if they should rather go along with them? Even Keirsey typed Mandela as ENFP because of that.
It's a truth that the black communities in the US and South Africa of the last century were against their governments who surpressed them. Does that mean Fe users make decisions based on their smaller communities rather than society as a whole? But it still doesn't explain why INFJs can have different views than their families and communities.

Thoughts on that?
 

Showbread

climb on
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Jung saw Fe users as people who align their opinions and views towards social norms. A painting is beautiful because other people see it this way, morals and ethics are also based on society's norms, decisions are made objectively.
However, the point is that Jung's description leaves an open room for false interpretations and misconceptions. Why did/do claimed Fe users like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or artists like Marilyn Manson rebel against established norms, if they should rather go along with them? Even Keirsey typed Mandela as ENFP because of that.
It's a truth that the black communities in the US and South Africa of the last century were against their governments who suppressed them. Does that mean Fe users make decisions based on their smaller communities rather than society as a whole? But it still doesn't explain why INFJs can have different views than their families and communities.

Thoughts on that?

Well, from my perspective a big part of Fe is concern and awareness of the well-being of others. For me, that outweighs obedience to social norms. If I see a social norm that is getting in the way of what I perceive to be just, or in other's best interest then I challenge it.
I am a feminist, even though in the environment I was raised in this is not socially acceptable.

I also wear socks with sandals sometimes. But, that's just because Birkenstocks are way to comfortable to not wear all year. ;)
 
G

garbage

Guest
I detest when this comes up.

It'd be akin to claiming that all Te-users living during and just after Copernicus's time believed that the sun revolved around the earth.

Nobody seems to recognize this. Norms are norms.
 

skylights

i love
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[MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] already hit the nail on the head, but I'll just echo that Fe is just a pattern of thinking that takes interrelationships in the environment into account.

If a Fe user perceives that everyone is miserable, it is their natural inclination to alleviate that suffering, just like for any other F. Fe users will tend to have a better grasp on group consensus, external perception of interaction patterns, and the natural conclusions of a behavior, which makes them more attentive to and skilled with aligning people and values. I would also say that more Fe dom/aux will tend to utilize strategies that capitalize on the power of groups and, depending on Ni or Si, will tend to make use either of subconsciously-grounded shared archetypes or pre-existing structures and definitions to achieve their goals, whereas FP types and Ts will tend to ignore those aspects of the equation.

But by no means does that lock Fe types into being controlled by social mores. All people have the gift of individual judgment and are free within themselves to follow it, and it is clear from life that they do.
 

Honor

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Hmm, I'm more concerned about people being "morally correct" (which I guess could be seen as a set of subjective evaluations, but in my belief, there are rights and wrongs). I don't really care about social norms.
 

Stephano

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Well, from my perspective a big part of Fe is concern and awareness of the well-being of others. For me, that outweighs obedience to social norms. If I see a social norm that is getting in the way of what I perceive to be just, or in other's best interest then I challenge it.

Yes that's my idea of Fe too. It puts the well-being of others above the norms. But Jung's conception of Fe feels different. He focuses more on the conforming rather than the social aspects.
The thing is that these things can become contradictionary. Just take the Nazi era in Germany and Austria as an example. You can't wish the well-being of minorities and support the Nazi-regime at the same time. And I believe the majority of people supported the discrimination of the minorities (not the brutal killings in the concetration camps, they were not monsters).
However, I think Fe users in general put the well-being of others first when they are directly connected to an individual or a group of people and put the norms first when they are in no relation to the affected people. My grandma does that a lot. She's an ISFJ and she is quick to judge people like drug abusers, but is very empathetic when she talks to one.
If that is true the motivations of Mandela and King are clear, but I still have a somewhat superficial knowledge of how Fe really works.

I detest when this comes up.

It'd be akin to claiming that all Te-users living during and just after Copernicus's time believed that the sun revolved around the earth.

Nobody seems to recognize this. Norms are norms.

That's right, but I think the difference lies in the way how someone makes their opinion.
A heavy Te user would rather believe the general accepted, since they see it as objective data. A Ti user would believe the same, if there isn't any other data to form an opinion.
 

the resident

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Fe is the most misunderstood type.

And the most interesting.
 

valaki

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That's right, but I think the difference lies in the way how someone makes their opinion.
A heavy Te user would rather believe the general accepted, since they see it as objective data. A Ti user would believe the same, if there isn't any other data to form an opinion.

Why would consensus have to be objective data? What about groupthink??? :newwink:

This never made sense to me, that is, relating Te to automatically accepting generally accepted stuff
 

badger055

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Aug 29, 2012
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570
All my Fe wants to do is burn down everything like it was the joker. That's inferior Fe though.

INFJ Fe is combined with Ni so it makes it big picture. They align with a country or the whole world.
 

Galena

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Fe is the most misunderstood type.

And the most interesting.
It does get frustrating to see it taken for oppressive frivolity by those who don't use it as a first or second function. I think, hey, that bullshit you speak of is some people's first language, and it's as real and heartfelt and complicated for them as your own is for you. But then again, I've never participated in the argument. Fe is just a systematic lens, neutral until fused with its user.
 

the resident

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It does get frustrating to see it taken for oppressive frivolity by those who don't use it as a first or second function. I think, hey, that bullshit you speak of is some people's first language, and it's as real and heartfelt and complicated for them as your own is for you. But then again, I've never participated in the argument. Fe is just a systematic lens, neutral until fused with its user.

Blaming ills on the system is no reason for justification.

Jung argues that the functions are inherently biased.
 

cafe

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When the norms are wrong, you have to try to fight them.

A lot of women my age have all these domestic expectations on them. You are supposed to sacrifice yourself for your family and you are supposed to love to cook. You aren't allowed to resent your kids until they are teenagers and then you are almost required to resent them.

I would bet money most of us do not internally align with all that stuff and I find it oppressive. I make it a point to communicate my feelings on those matters when they come up in conversation. If my looking 'bad' makes someone else feel like less of a failure or less defective, I'm okay with taking that hit. I feel like I'm in a position where I can afford to take it. I'd like us to get those masks off and really talk.

Social ills are the same kind of thing. A lot of our norms are based on generations of inequality and oppression. Those must be fought as much as possible. I can't do a lot about it right now because my kids are still dependent on me, but I fully intend to be one of those granny protesters. I do what little bit I can now.
 

Galena

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Blaming ills on the system is no reason for justification.

Jung argues that the functions are inherently biased.
I do not mean to justify anything, but mean that it is the person with the function who chooses to express it for right or wrong. All responsibility for ills is on the person, is what I was attempting to say.
 

INTP

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Fe like other functions can be repressed if the situation calls for it and types with non dom Fe tend to do this more habitually than Fe doms. Also Fe is ultimately a subjective function(as it deals with values), even tho the subjective values are influenced by external world -> some of the values that are brought to the Fe user from the external world can be rebelled against if it goes against the persons own values(which were in one way or another influenced by somthing external in the past).
 

Southern Kross

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I think one thing that we Fi users fail to realise is that Fe recognises that there are many types of 'social consensus'. There is not a single way to do what is best for the group, there may be many, existing on many different levels. Some of these things might be entirely contradictory. Some might be short-sighted and some might be considering long term goals. Some might be conservative or backward and some might be revolutionary. How Fe user decides which is best at any one time, I'm not sure - they'd probably be better at explaining this.

If you think of Fe as being focussed on the greater good, you can see why a Fe-user would rebel against the social mores if they felt that they weren't in line with that.

 

five sounds

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I was thinking about Fe in different positions when I read this. Like badger said, his inferior Fe is mostly a drive for arson, while a lot of Fe-dom and aux people are saying social rules are really not as important as truly bring aware of people's feelings and looking out for them in a more, um, mentally active way?

This brings me to think about Fe tert. I wonder if these Fe users would be the most prone to rely on social norms, since the same concept would be important to them, but the function is just not as strongly developed. Just a thought.

Also S/N distinctions I think play a factor. Intuitive types are going to be more prone to looking outside of the given structures and conventions , while sensors might skillfully maneuver within them.

Any thoughts?
 
G

Ginkgo

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When one social norm contradicts another, even those with an affinity for normalcy must resist.
 

21%

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I think the main thing about this is that Fe sees itself as an active part of the external moral landscape. In a way, we are one. This is why we consciously bend to fit it, and this is why we bend it to fit us. This is why Fe is often considered 'fake' and 'manipulative'; we are always actively bending something. For us, it is the same thing: we are one with the external landscape, so we do whatever it takes to smooth out the wrinkles. It's a natural dance for us. There are things that go forward and things that go back. You push forward and you yield. You are the same thing as the world.

So, couple this with some sort of a vision, and it's not surprising to see Fe users rebelling against 'social norms'. Whatever is our business is automatically the world's business. If we strongly believe in something, we will change the world to fit it.

All this is always open to discussion, btw (before you scream 'tyrant!') :smile:
 

Totenkindly

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However, the point is that Jung's description leaves an open room for false interpretations and misconceptions. Why did/do claimed Fe users like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or artists like Marilyn Manson rebel against established norms, if they should rather go along with them? Even Keirsey typed Mandela as ENFP because of that.

It's a truth that the black communities in the US and South Africa of the last century were against their governments who surpressed them. Does that mean Fe users make decisions based on their smaller communities rather than society as a whole? But it still doesn't explain why INFJs can have different views than their families and communities.

Thoughts on that?

INxx fueled by Ni runs to its own drummer -- seeing visions in their entirety without being able to articulate how they got there, it's simply "true."

Meanwhile, knowledge of Fe norms is just that, knowledge and ease of use, and you can either accept or rebel. (The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.) It's not a big deal for Fe folk to go against established norms. My INFJ teen daughter is strong-willed and tends to read everything as a power struggle, even when I'm operating out of TP "Informative" mode... she'll interpret what was just information I was giving her to frame and guide a decision as trying to TELL her what to do, as her first mode of operation. (EDIT: The amusing part is that she acted fine around me the last episode of this, then bitched to my ex about it and how mad she was. Gotta love that tact.)

I don't think it's that complicated; one has to be careful not to apply MBTI too rigidly, especially in light of the natural variance within each type.
 
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