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What the J/P dichotomy is and isn't

HongDou

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I disagree. There's a difference between the judging-lead receptiveness of, say, an INFP and the very open ENFP. Socionics actually considers Fi-Ne quite rigid and rule-oriented a la enneagram one. How familiar are you with these systems?

Aren't most INFPs either 4s, 6s, or 9s? 1 is pretty uncommon statistically for INFP. I'm pretty familiar with these systems.

Also, there's the issue of IXXJ being lead perceivers and open in an inward sense, which erodes the point of INFP being more open than INFJ. I would say INFP can be more outwardly exploratory than INFJ because of INFP's Ne. INFJ is more exploratory than INFP overall, however, yet the exploration and openness is inward.

Exactly:

Judging or Perceiving

This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world.

The thing causing the outward perceiving is not the P but rather the Se or Ne...

Well yes, Pe is outward perceiving. But having a Pe function in dominant or auxilary is theoretically there for all P types, so yes just being a P could result in this.

[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] - I recommend you read Personality Junkie and get familiar with inner and outer perceiving versus judgement.

This site isn't telling me anything I don't already know. :shrug:
 

entpersonal

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Aren't most INFPs either 4s, 6s, or 9s? 1 is pretty uncommon statistically for INFP. I'm pretty familiar with these systems.



Exactly:





Well yes, Pe is outward perceiving. But having a Pe function in dominant or auxilary is theoretically there for all P types, so yes just being a P could result in this.



This site isn't telling me anything I don't already know. :shrug:

J related traits:

Likes to have things settled
Pay attention to time
prefer to finish projects
takes responsibility seriously*

those obviously aren't really exclusive to outward judging types. an infp, in spite of being a P, could show those traits.

just to make this clear - the last letter ONLY TELLS YOU whether you introvert/extravert judgement primarily.

*that especially applies to infps…a P type
 

entpersonal

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Aren't most INFPs either 4s, 6s, or 9s? 1 is pretty uncommon statistically for INFP. I'm pretty familiar with these systems.



Exactly:





Well yes, Pe is outward perceiving. But having a Pe function in dominant or auxilary is theoretically there for all P types, so yes just being a P could result in this.



This site isn't telling me anything I don't already know. :shrug:

If you had read through personality junkie you would have seen that J/P isn't to be taken at face value - i.e., as denoting a lifestyle. Enough of this back and forth; if you can't see the obvious, then I can't help you.
 

HongDou

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J related traits:

Likes to have things settled
Pay attention to time
prefer to finish projects
takes responsibility seriously*

those obviously aren't really exclusive to outward judging types. an infp, in spite of being a P, could show those traits.

I'd still think it's more likely for an actual J to have those qualities. I know some IFPs that have really messed up their educational career by putting off responsibilities and doing what they want to instead.

just to make this clear - the last letter ONLY TELLS YOU whether you introvert/extravert judgement primarily.

So you're basically saying the functions take precedence over all other perspectives of MBTI?

If you had read through personality junkie you would have seen that J/P isn't to be taken at face value - i.e., as denoting a lifestyle. Enough of this back and forth; if you can't see the obvious, then I can't help you.

But if all Ps have Pe in the dominant or auxilary, like you said, and are very receptive to external stimuli then doesn't it make sense to say all Ps share that quality? I mean, of course there will be exceptions, since trying to fit every person into one of 16 types is messy. But still.
 

entpersonal

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I'd still think it's more likely for an actual J to have those qualities. I know some IFPs that have really messed up their educational career by putting off responsibilities and doing what they want to instead.



So you're basically saying the functions take precedence over all other perspectives of MBTI?



But if all Ps have Pe in the dominant or auxilary, like you said, and are very receptive to external stimuli then doesn't it make sense to say all Ps share that quality? I mean, of course there will be exceptions, since trying to fit every person into one of 16 types is messy. But still.

The thing to understand is that Ps aren't always outwardly disorganized, yet Ps ALWAYS have that predominate extraverted perceiving function!
 

HongDou

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The thing to understand is that Ps aren't always outwardly disorganized, yet Ps ALWAYS have that predominate extraverted perceiving function!

Yes, but I always assumed the "aren't always" part was a given. :shock: I'm talking about commonalities between Ps, not strict rules that they have to abide by to be a P. And yes, in the function theory Ps always have Pe - I think almost anyone would agree with that.
 

entpersonal

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Yes, but I always assumed the "aren't always" part was a given. :shock: I'm talking about commonalities between Ps, not strict rules that they have to abide by to be a P. And yes, in the function theory Ps always have Pe - I think almost anyone would agree with that.

Well, remember, I started this thread just to discuss how J denotes a predominately extraverted judgement function, and P denotes an extroverted perceiving one. This actually came as news to a few members. So, you either are knowledgable on the topic already or too obstinate to benefit from further discussion.
 

entpersonal

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Yes, but I always assumed the "aren't always" part was a given. :shock: I'm talking about commonalities between Ps, not strict rules that they have to abide by to be a P. And yes, in the function theory Ps always have Pe - I think almost anyone would agree with that.

As a refresher, this is the OP. Nothing groundbreaking.


The J/P dichotomy tells you whether you extravert or introvert judging primarily.

For example, the XNTP introvert thinking (lead judging function) because of the p letter and XNTJ extravert their lead judging function (Te) because of the j letter.

The J/P isn't about being lazy or productive, or ordered versus sloppy. INXJ have a lead perceiving function, guys.
 

HongDou

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Well, remember, I started this thread just to discuss how J denotes a predominately extraverted judgement function, and P denotes an extroverted perceiving one. This actually came as news to a few members. So, you either are knowledgable on the topic already or too obstinate to benefit from further discussion.

Oh okay. :thinking: I thought you were saying the common traits among types with different preferences didn't hold any merit. I mean, yes they're not always true but what I was trying to say was that the letters aim to describe common qualities. They're not 100% for certain but they can still be useful to look at just like the functions, temperaments, profiles, etc.
 

greenfairy

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My J/P is very much in the middle, but I relate to the cognitive functions and archetype of INFJ far more than INFP. There are a lot of subtle differences between the two, and I also line up with INFJ on those. It's the generalized differences in which I'm more ambiguous. I may not appear structured and I question the validity of all rules, but if you took a closer look at how I live my life the subtleties would tell a different story. I used to be a terrible student and would procrastinate and only do what I felt like, but I hated myself for it and I'm far happier now. I still don't get everything done. So I come down more on the side of J and P being more of a continuum than a dichotomy, but I believe the cognitive functions make a lot of sense too.

J characteristics which apply to me:
-synthetic thinker: if given a bunch of information I will immediately try to find a unifying theme.
-dislike surprises
-love planning, love organization of tangible objects, love preparation
-try to keep converations on topic
-like to limit my intake of information
-value external and collective standards
-set goals for myself
-am organized and my belongings are neat, aside from some piles of papers or clothes or random junk I don't want to deal with atm


P characteristics:
-change my mind and don't follow my own plans if I don't feel like it
-easily distracted
-generally think it's not my business to influence or control other people
-don't try to control the external world
-think informing people is better than directing them
-comfortable with not knowing the answers, but always like to have opinions
-I pay attention to time and it makes me anxious, but not always, and I don't have a good understanding of it. I tend to think I have infinite time to do everything, and even though I generally do things quickly I get distracted with other things.

So based on these it's not immediately clear I'm an INFJ probably. When I read description of J/P I could say both sets apply to me. I prefer to be a J but I'm sometimes not goot at it.
 

greenfairy

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My J/P is very much in the middle, but I relate to the cognitive functions and archetype of INFJ far more than INFP. There are a lot of subtle differences between the two, and I also line up with INFJ on those. It's the generalized differences in which I'm more ambiguous. I may not appear structured and I question the validity of all rules, but if you took a closer look at how I live my life the subtleties would tell a different story. I used to be a terrible student and would procrastinate and only do what I felt like, but I hated myself for it and I'm far happier now. I still don't get everything done. So I come down more on the side of J and P being more of a continuum than a dichotomy, but I believe the cognitive functions make a lot of sense too.

J characteristics which apply to me:
-synthetic thinker: if given a bunch of information I will immediately try to find a unifying theme.
-dislike surprises
-love planning, love organization of tangible objects, love preparation
-try to keep converations on topic
-like to limit my intake of information
-value external and collective standards
-set goals for myself
-am organized and my belongings are neat, aside from some piles of papers or clothes or random junk I don't want to deal with atm


P characteristics:
-change my mind and don't follow my own plans if I don't feel like it
-easily distracted
-generally think it's not my business to influence or control other people
-don't try to control the external world
-think informing people is better than directing them
-comfortable with not knowing the answers, but always like to have opinions
-I pay attention to time and it makes me anxious, but not always, and I don't have a good understanding of it. I tend to think I have infinite time to do everything, and even though I generally do things quickly I get distracted with other things.

So based on these it's not immediately clear I'm an INFJ probably. When I read description of J/P I could say both sets apply to me. I prefer to be a J but I'm sometimes not goot at it.
 

Such Irony

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The J/P dichotomy determines how you deal with the outside world. It is based less on whether you have a dominant J function and more on whether your first J function is extroverted or introverted.

Types in which Je is more dominant than Ji (xxxJs) are more concerned with creating external structure (rules, systems, things that control others, etc.) while types in which Ji is more dominant than Je (xxxPs) are more concerned with building an internal structure (value systems, understanding, things that control the self, etc.)

So, yes, J/P is about being lazy or productive and is even more about being ordered or sloppy. IxxJs are dominant perceivers and IxxPs are dominant judgers, but an INTJ will usually seem more orderly than an INTP because of the extraverted nature of his primary judging function.

Agree with this, especially the part about the internal structure. I don't care as much about external structure but the internal structure is what's important. INTP here. I want systems to be internally consistent and can be quite anal about that.

If also if you read Jung, he didn't use J/P. Just S/N and T/F and whether they are introverted or extraverted. Once you know the dominant and auxilary function, you know the type.


Js also often prefer a directive communication style, as opposed to the informing style often preferred by Ps

In most cases. I think it was Linda Berens who addresses these communication styles and there were a couple of exceptions. She has xSFJ as informing and xSTP as directive.

I'm not really sure why these exceptions exist except that it makes for both informing and directive types in each temperament.
 
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