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What the J/P dichotomy is and isn't

entpersonal

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The J/P dichotomy tells you whether you extravert or introvert judging primarily.

For example, the XNTP introvert thinking (lead judging function) because of the p letter and XNTJ extravert their lead judging function (Te) because of the j letter.

The J/P isn't about being lazy or productive, or ordered versus sloppy. INXJ have a lead perceiving function, guys. :huh:
 

Halla74

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The J/P dichotomy tells you whether you extravert or introvert judging primarily.

Cool deal, got that.

For example, the XNTP introvert thinking (lead judging function) because of the p letter and XNTJ extravert their lead judging function (Te) because of the j letter.

Good example.

The J/P isn't about being lazy or productive, or ordered versus sloppy. INXJ have a lead perceiving function, guys. :huh:

OK, my J/P score is near balanced (j=~49%/ P=~51%) - so what does that mean for me?

Thanks.

-Halla74
 

entpersonal

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OK, my J/P score is near balanced (j=~49%/ P=~51%) - so what does that mean for me?

Thanks.

-Halla74

I mean, if you're sure about the first three letters - ESTX - I would just compare Te-Si and Se-Ti or whether you're a judger or perceiver in terms of the actual cognitive functions* or just look at Ti versus Te, which is a perennial battle. You would probably structure your life much more as an ESTJ, because of Te. These types aren't often confused. Also, one's SP and the other's SJ according to Keirsey temperaments.

*I consider INXJ perceivers because Ni is a perceiving function.
 

Halla74

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I mean, if you're sure about the first three letters - ESTX...

Hi there.
Thanks for your reply! :hifive:
I'm sure about all four letters actually, however, I ponder on the nature of people who are at/near balanced on one or more cognitive functions from time to time for obvious reasons.

Seems like the arguments are one of two variants:
(a) all or nothing (e.g. "You're a Judger OR a Perceiver - that's it, there's no other possibilities.")
(b) sliding scale/graded prevalence of one over the other (e.g. "You're the most organized & timely Perceiver I know" - OR - "For a Judger you sure take a long time to make a decision.")

From what I know and have withnessed/experienced to date, I'm betting on option (b) at this time.

- I would just compare Te-Si and Se-Ti or whether you're a judger or perceiver in terms of the actual cognitive functions* or just look at Ti versus Te, which is a perennial battle.

That's an interesting recommendation.
I'm very "Ti" - my best friend Jack is an ESFP, and he is very "Te" - I get the difference in expression of these traits as such...

You would probably structure your life much more as an ESTJ, because of Te. These types aren't often confused.

I don't know about this.
I exhibit traits of both -
I'm habitually late and also laid back; however very organized and driven. :shock:

Also, one's SP and the other's SJ according to Keirsey temperaments.

Team Artisan All the Way!!! :party2:

*I consider INXJ perceivers because Ni is a perceiving function.

My wife is an INFJ; that's interesting you mention that.
I will aske her take on this and reply soon.

Cheers!

:cheers:

-H.
 

entpersonal

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Seems like the arguments are one of two variants:
(a) all or nothing (e.g. "You're a Judger OR a Perceiver - that's it, there's no other possibilities.")
(b) sliding scale/graded prevalence of one over the other (e.g. "You're the most organized & timely Perceiver I know" - OR - "For a Judger you sure take a long time to make a decision.")

Howdy. I would go with the categorical option. Because someone has a dominant perceiving or judging function, that makes the person predominately one or the other.

The statements in the second option could also be valid, of course. There are relatively orderly ESTP…I'm told. ;)

There's nothing about Se or being a perceiver-dom that would "make" you organized, in my estimation of JCF, though. If an INTJ were super organized, in spite of having a lead perceiving function, I would assume high Te in that individual.
 

fghw

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The J/P dichotomy determines how you deal with the outside world. It is based less on whether you have a dominant J function and more on whether your first J function is extroverted or introverted.

Types in which Je is more dominant than Ji (xxxJs) are more concerned with creating external structure (rules, systems, things that control others, etc.) while types in which Ji is more dominant than Je (xxxPs) are more concerned with building an internal structure (value systems, understanding, things that control the self, etc.)

So, yes, J/P is about being lazy or productive and is even more about being ordered or sloppy. IxxJs are dominant perceivers and IxxPs are dominant judgers, but an INTJ will usually seem more orderly than an INTP because of the extraverted nature of his primary judging function.
 

HongDou

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Dunno, I think the J/P dichotomy still has some merit. :shrug: My ENFJ friends are much more generally structured and organized than I am even though Fe or Ni doesn't necessarily demand being well-organized.

I've started to distance myself from the Jungian functions recently really. I think they're worth taking a look at, but I think they're better at explaining why types tend to think and act a certain way than actually being used to deduce someone's type. I mean I guess it's one perspective you could look at when trying to figure out type but I don't think it has more importance than other perspectives like the four letter dichotomy.

So nah, I don't think P vs J solely means whether you're Je/Pi or Pe/Ji. There are a few other qualities that I think can usually come with just being a "perceiver" or a "judger." I think some of the interesting common tendencies to observe are those in EPs, EJs, IPs, and IJs.
 

entpersonal

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Dunno, I think the J/P dichotomy still has some merit. :shrug: My ENFJ friends are much more generally structured and organized than I am even though Fe or Ni doesn't necessarily demand being well-organized.

In extraverts the J/P does actually denote a lead perceiving or judging function. I would contend the intentionality or orderliness, across all types, relates to the directionality of the lead judging function, however. For introverts you want to flip the J and P, which Socionics does.
 

HongDou

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In extraverts the J/P does actually denote a lead perceiving or judging function. I would contend the orderliness, across all types, relates to the directionality of the lead judging function, however. For introverts you want to flip the J and P, which Socionics does.

No, I understand function theory. I'm just saying that I think that levels of orderliness probably does relate with the J/P letter. I mean, INJs are perceiving dominant, but I'd definitely say that they're generally more organized than INPs even though they're functionally P-dominant.
 

entpersonal

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No, I understand function theory. I'm just saying that I think that levels of orderliness probably does relate with the J/P letter. I mean, INJs are perceiving dominant, but I'd definitely say that they're generally more organized than INPs even though they're functionally P-dominant.

The INXPs actually are lead judgers, according to JCF.
 

entpersonal

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No, I understand function theory. I'm just saying that I think that levels of orderliness probably does relate with the J/P letter. I mean, INJs are perceiving dominant, but I'd definitely say that they're generally more organized than INPs even though they're functionally P-dominant.

It's also an issue of being internally or externally organized or rational. An INFP's values are very static and clearcut and relatively immobile.
 

entpersonal

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So Fi and Ti are truly judging functions - the static framework of an INFP's values or INTP's logical framework is used to navigate major life decisions.
 

HongDou

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It's also an issue of being internally or externally organized or rational. An INFP's values are very static and clearcut and relatively immobile.

So are mine. But I'm still P as fuck. :alttongue: But I'd still say that chances are that when it comes to where you are in the world and what you're doing the INFJs probably have the neater desks than the INFPs.

You could talk to [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] over this messy matter since (iirc) she said that she could be more J>P but cognitively NeFi.

And here's an except from the Myers-Briggs homepage (you see it incorporates some general J vs P qualities but also indirectly talks about Pe and Je and so on):

Judging or Perceiving


This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world.

Everyone extraverts some of the time. This pair describes whether you extravert (act in the outer world) when you are making decisions or when you are taking in information.

Some people interact with the outside world when they are taking in information. Whether they use the Sensing preference or the Intuitive preference, they are still interacting in the outside world.

Other people do their interacting when they are making decisions. It doesn’t matter whether they are using a Thinking preference or a Feeling preference; they are still interacting in the outside world.

Everyone takes in information some of the time. Everyone makes decisions some of the time. However, when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to focus on making decisions have a preference for Judging because they tend to like things decided. People who tend to focus on taking in information prefer Perceiving because they stay open to a final decision in order to get more information.

Sometimes people feel they have both. That is true. The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J).

Don’t confuse Judging and Perceiving with a person’s level of organization. Either preference can be organized.

Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you?

Judging (J)
I use my decision-making (Judging) preference (whether it is Thinking or Feeling) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible.

Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am).

Do not confuse Judging with judgmental, in its negative sense about people and events. They are not related.

The following statements generally apply to me:

I like to have things decided.
I appear to be task oriented.
I like to make lists of things to do.
I like to get my work done before playing.
I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline.
Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information.
Perceiving (P)
I use my perceiving function (whether it is Sensing or Intuition) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a flexible and spontaneous way of life, and I like to understand and adapt to the world rather than organize it. Others see me staying open to new experiences and information.

Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am).

Remember, in type language perceiving means “preferring to take in information.” It does not mean being “perceptive” in the sense of having quick and accurate perceptions about people and events.

The following statements generally apply to me:

I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens.
I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum.
I like to approach work as play or mix work and play.
I work in bursts of energy.
I am stimulated by an approaching deadline.
Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed.

Source: http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.asp
 

entpersonal

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So are mine. But I'm still P as fuck.

I'll read all that in a moment. The reason you're likely "P as fuck" is because you're a "true" perceiver - being an extraverted P and lead perceiver. In other words, lead Se and lead Ne people tend to be "P as fuck" as you eloquently put it.
 

entpersonal

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So are mine. But I'm still P as fuck. :alttongue: But I'd still say that chances are that when it comes to where you are in the world and what you're doing the INFJs probably have the neater desks than the INFPs.

You could talk to [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] over this messy matter since (iirc) she said that she could be more J>P but cognitively NeFi.

And here's an except from the Myers-Briggs homepage (you see it incorporates some general J vs P qualities but also indirectly talks about Pe and Je and so on):



Source: http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.asp

There are a ton of INTJs who should be Ps based on that criteria.
 

HongDou

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I'll read all that in a moment. The reason you're likely "P as fuck" is because you're a "true" perceiver - being an extraverted P and lead perceiver. In other words, lead Se and lead Ne people tend to be "P as fuck" as you eloquently put it.

So you're saying, in theory, IPs are actually more organized, goal-oriented, and structured while IJs are more laid-back, plan-avoiding, and unstructured? Can't say I agree. :unsure:

There are a ton of INTJs who should be Ps based on that criteria.

Maybe they're INTPs. :alttongue:
 

entpersonal

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So you're saying, in theory, IPs are actually more organized, goal-oriented, and structured while IJs are more laid-back, plan-avoiding, and unstructured? Can't say I agree. :unsure:

I suppose I am. INXPs apply values or logic, depending on the third letter, to basically every circumstances in their lives whereas INXJ's basic orientation is internal free association and accepting information per the Ni-Se axis. The judging comes later for INXJs. To be clear, INXJs are more outwardly organized typically because of having an extraverted judging function first. This is especially true for IXTJ because of aux-Te.
 
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