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The ACTUAL Top Two Functions for Each Type

W

WALMART

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I think having ti, ni and ne and te as pretty high functions for INTs actually seems to fit with what I recall Jung saying,as how both "attitudes" exist in everyone, and an introverted thinking type can apply thinking externally, for instance, and that it's actually important to use both attitudes. I'm too lazy to find an exact quote, but maybe someone else can help me.

@superunknown maybe?

I think a lot of his theories on personality and health deal with finding common ground across types - or at least, not getting sucked deep into any singular facet of existence. For example, regarding extroversion, "Hysteria is, in my view, by far the most frequent neurosis with the extraverted type... To begin with, the 'hysterical' character is an exaggeration of the normal attitude; it is then complicated by compensatory reactions from the side of the unconscious, which manifests its opposition to the extravagant extraversion in the form of physical disorders, whereupon an introversion of psychic energy becomes unavoidable."

So, a particular attention to the extroverted attitude makes you insensitive, or combative, to the forces driving within. Conversely, a particular introverted attitude brings you discordant with reality, and all the other peculiarities that come with it.
 

MacabreCharade

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Ti doesn’t care though hence it prefers to mould its understanding around its perception data, which it hopes is accurate hence such psyches dislike loops (Ti-Ni or Ti-Si loops).

This leaves an impression of Ti essentially being doomed to confirmation bias.
 

Anna Jorovic

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Moral insanity is not too subjective to describe a psychopath, for it implies that the individual totally lacks a moral compass, something which non-afflicted people have one way or another despite no central agreement on what is right and wrong. Moral insanity is directly equal to lack of conscience, an actual sign of psychopathy.

From:http://personalitycafe.com/isfj-articles/115923-carl-jung-succinct-subjective-vs-objective-functions.html

Extroverted Thinking
Valuing external logic, the psyche prefers to guide its sense of logic by looking for evidence to support the desired logic. Like Ti, the Te psyche can create internal logical classifications to build understanding. However the difference is that the logic (guided by another subjective function) made must have a strong adherence to the external reality else the psyche disputes it. Ti doesn’t care though hence it prefers to mould its understanding around its perception data, which it hopes is accurate hence such psyches dislike loops (Ti-Ni or Ti-Si loops).

Introverted Thinking
Introverted logic has similarities to Te in the sense that the psyche sources its data from the external world. Ti types can see the same logic as Te types do, they don’t invent logic in order to create understanding. Instead, they focus and “subject” the external logic creating meaning. In subjecting the logic, these types hope that the perception data they employ is objective as that becomes the only final frontier establishing objective understanding. As stated before loops (Ti-Si or Ti-Ni) are disliked since they naturally distort the perception of reality.

How can logic be external? You can only think about things internally, so I don't understand that explanation.

And don't "adhering to external reality" and gaining information through "perception data" mean the same thing? Or do E-TJs have a special ability to get more objective information from the external world than I-TPs do?
 

Alea_iacta_est

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How can logic be external? You can only think about things internally, so I don't understand that explanation.

And don't "adhering to external reality" and gaining information through "perception data" mean the same thing? Or do E-TJs have a special ability to get more objective information from the external world than I-TPs do?

You misunderstand, Ti is logic directed internally, and Te is logic directed externally, the logic is still formulated in your mind, but it is directed in different ways and drawn from different things.

External logic is concrete mathematics and concrete information. This person is worth this much to me; therefore, I will play him as such to improve the efficiency of this situation. It's systematical, organized, and brutally efficient.

Internal logic is more abstract mathematics and abstract information. Ti is responsible for branching connections made by Se or Ne; therefore, this object is related to this one, therefore the latter object may be related to this other object because that object is related to the former object, and from that we can draw x using this type of logic.

Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information.

Gaining information from perception data is just as it says, gathering information for the already present internal logic to sort and categorize

E-TJs are a little bit more objective than I-TPs, but E-TJs lack in terms of creativity and abstract problem-solving capabilities, it is by no means a special ability, it is just a skill. If you really wanted to, you could start developing your Te and trusting it more and thereby become more objective than an E-TJ, but that also hinders the capabilities of your Ti, your already strong and developed function.

ENTJs and INTPs are about equal in terms of finding objective data from the outside world, its just that ENTJs just do it more.
 

Anna Jorovic

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You misunderstand, Ti is logic directed internally, and Te is logic directed externally, the logic is still formulated in your mind, but it is directed in different ways and drawn from different things.

External logic is concrete mathematics and concrete information. This person is worth this much to me; therefore, I will play him as such to improve the efficiency of this situation. It's systematical, organized, and brutally efficient.

Internal logic is more abstract mathematics and abstract information. Ti is responsible for branching connections made by Se or Ne; therefore, this object is related to this one, therefore the latter object may be related to this other object because that object is related to the former object, and from that we can draw x using this type of logic.

Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information.

Gaining information from perception data is just as it says, gathering information for the already present internal logic to sort and categorize

E-TJs are a little bit more objective than I-TPs, but E-TJs lack in terms of creativity and abstract problem-solving capabilities, it is by no means a special ability, it is just a skill. If you really wanted to, you could start developing your Te and trusting it more and thereby become more objective than an E-TJ, but that also hinders the capabilities of your Ti, your already strong and developed function.

ENTJs and INTPs are about equal in terms of finding objective data from the outside world, its just that ENTJs just do it more.

Yes, that's how I understand it. But the quote you posted didn't make it so clear. :)

But the "efficiency" of Te is in a way a proof of it's inherent subjectivity. They need to have a strong subjective sense that something is "worth" doing in order to put so much time and energy into accomplishing tasks. As an INTP, it takes me forever to get this feeling, so I rarely accomplish anything, just think about them haha.

In my experience Ti is not just about making connections (Ne is the function for that). It's usually experienced by me as a need for carefully defined and puzzled-out thinking. I love just sitting down and thinking about something (usually philosophy, science, or my writing) - I do it at least four or five hours a day, and get grumpy when I don't have the time. I also hate when someone doesn't explain things properly, even if they are generally right haha. But these things might just be me, I don't know.

"Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information."
I don't understand this. What would this look like to a Ti user? I thought you just said earlier that all logic is formulated in the mind, so how can it be drawn from the environment here?
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Yes, that's how I understand it. But the quote you posted didn't make it so clear. :)

But the "efficiency" of Te is in a way a proof of it's inherent subjectivity. They need to have a strong subjective sense that something is "worth" doing in order to put so much time and energy into accomplishing tasks. As an INTP, it takes me forever to get this feeling, so I rarely accomplish anything, just think about them haha.

In my experience Ti is not just about making connections (Ne is the function for that). It's usually experienced by me as a need for carefully defined and puzzled-out thinking. I love just sitting down and thinking about something (usually philosophy, science, or my writing) - I do it at least four or five hours a day, and get grumpy when I don't have the time. I also hate when someone doesn't explain things properly, even if they are generally right haha. But these things might just be me, I don't know.

"Adhering to external reality means that the logic is drawn from the external environment to explain information."
I don't understand this. What would this look like to a Ti user? I thought you just said earlier that all logic is formulated in the mind, so how can it be drawn from the environment here?

The efficiency of Te creates a compulsion that is felt by its user to form systems so that information can be seen objectively and clearly without personal logic and inner workings, that "subjective" sense you are describing is merely a trait attributed to any xxxJ type, motivation.

I have limited expertise in the use of Te, but I do use it pretty often as I do/did Ni. Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information and just clearly interpreting the facts and data that are evident (either by iNtuition or Sensing). Bar graphs, pie charts, arithmetic, and any form of basic math and statistics is how I would explain Te to someone unfamiliar with it I guess. (If there is an ENTJ or ESTJ here I would love you to explain it).
 

Seymour

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[... Lots of good stuff I generally agree with...]

And what functions model should a good test be matching, anyway? Myers acknowledged that the majority of Jung scholars believed (rightly, IMHO) that Jung's model for a Ti-dom with an N auxiliary was Ti-Ni-Se-Fe. Myers' model was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe — although, as explained in my linked post (below), Myers, despite some lip service to the contrary, essentially abandoned the functions for the dichotomies. Harold Grant's model — followed by Berens and Nardi and most of the other modern functions theorists — was Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.

I think it would be difficult to argue that Jung would say his model for a Ti-dom with N-aux would be Ti-Ni-Se-Fe:

Psychological Types p340 said:
We call a mode of behavior extraverted only when the mechanism of extraversion predominates. In these cases the most differentiated function is always employed in an extraverted way, whereas the inferior functions are introverted; in other words, the superior function is the most conscious one and completely under the conscious control, whereas the less differentiated functions are in part unconscious and far less under the control of consciousness.

To me is sounds like he is saying something similar to Myers's model, where all but the dominant function have the opposite attitude. I suppose one could argue that he's just leaving out any mention of the auxiliary... but seems like that would be a bit odd. It's also possible that he elaborated on his model later.

Then there's his discussion of the auxiliary:

Psychological Types p407 said:
The unconscious functions likewise group themselves in patterns correlating with the conscious ones. Thus, the correlation of conscious, practical thinking may be an unconscious, intuitive-feeling attitude, with feelings under a stronger inhibition than intuition. [...] I have frequently observed how an analyst, confronted with a terrific thinking type, for instance, will do his utmost to develop the feeling function directly out of the unconscious. Such an attempt is foredoomed to failure, because it involves too great a violation of the conscious standpoint. [...] But the approach to the unconscious and to the most repressed function is disclosed, as it were, of its own accord, and with adequate protections of the conscious standpoint, when the way of development proceeds via the auxiliary function -- in the case of a rational type via one of the irrational functions. This gives the patient a broader view of what is happening, and of what is possible, so that his consciousness is sufficiently protected against the inroads of the unconscious.

So there it sounds like in this section there are two groupings... the "conscious functions" (presumably dom and aux) and the "unconscious ones". Still, I think it's more sensible to read that as saying that the in Jung's model, the dominant is the most conscious of the four, and the inferior is the least, and where he draws the conscious/unconscious dividing line depends upon the topic at hand. Of course, it may be he added the idea of the auxiliary as an afterthought, and his previous discussion of dominant vs other functions didn't really take the auxiliary into account.

At any rate, even INTP meaning "dominant Ti" isn't really supportable according to Reynierse. In his view, someone preferring iNTP might have a stronger preference for intuition and perception than for thinking (and hence those characteristics will tend to predominate).
 

Anna Jorovic

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The efficiency of Te creates a compulsion that is felt by its user to form systems so that information can be seen objectively and clearly without personal logic and inner workings, that "subjective" sense you are describing is merely a trait attributed to any xxxJ type, motivation.

I have limited expertise in the use of Te, but I do use it pretty often as I do/did Ni. Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information and just clearly interpreting the facts and data that are evident (either by iNtuition or Sensing). Bar graphs, pie charts, arithmetic, and any form of basic math and statistics is how I would explain Te to someone unfamiliar with it I guess. (If there is an ENTJ or ESTJ here I would love you to explain it).

The motivation needed to achieve personally defined goals is subjective. How can you have objective motivations? I don't see how either I-TPs or E-TJs win on the overall objectivity scale, they just have different interests.

How can a person properly understand anything without using "personal logic and inner workings"? To not use these is just remembering "facts" lol!

"Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information..."
Which is exactly what Ti does too.

And yeah, I'd like an E-TJs perspective - if you can spare the time. :D
 

Alea_iacta_est

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The motivation needed to achieve personally defined goals is subjective. How can you have objective motivations? I don't see how either I-TPs or E-TJs win on the overall objectivity scale, they just have different interests.

How can a person properly understand anything without using "personal logic and inner workings"? To not use these is just remembering "facts" lol!

"Te is simply discarding any personal biases and extraneous information..."
Which is exactly what Ti does too.

Motivation is neither subjective nor objective, it is a compulsion and unrelated to the interpretation of information and decision making process. ELABORATION: Motivation only deals with how long it takes to make decisions and interpret information.

"To not use these is just remembering facts" That's the gist of it. Te is essentially just dealing with factual information and drawing obvious conclusions from the data, especially in the ESTJ.

Ti welcomes seemingly extraneous information in an attempt to cross reference it with new data to see if it truly isn't extraneous and something can be drawn from it. Te already discarded the extraneous information, which leads Te users to seem close-minded, for in their mind they are looking at only whats relevant to the current situation.

No one truly wins on the objectivity scale, it's extremely close. ENTJs and ESTJs are just a hair more objective than INTPs and ISTPs because of the simple first letter, as Extroversion is generally accepted as objective while Introversion is generally accepted as subjective, this idea has gone beyond the point of merely ideas but entire lifestyles.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I think a lot of his theories on personality and health deal with finding common ground across types - or at least, not getting sucked deep into any singular facet of existence. For example, regarding extroversion, "Hysteria is, in my view, by far the most frequent neurosis with the extraverted type... To begin with, the 'hysterical' character is an exaggeration of the normal attitude; it is then complicated by compensatory reactions from the side of the unconscious, which manifests its opposition to the extravagant extraversion in the form of physical disorders, whereupon an introversion of psychic energy becomes unavoidable."

So, a particular attention to the extroverted attitude makes you insensitive, or combative, to the forces driving within. Conversely, a particular introverted attitude brings you discordant with reality, and all the other peculiarities that come with it.

So, just for clarification, does it stand that according to Jung, a healthy individual might, for instance, make frequent use of intuition in both Introverted and Extroverted attitudes. Someone, for instance with only strong Ne or strong Ni might "have issues"?
 

chubber

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My current understanding is that those shadow functions are bad. This proposed way of looking at functions, makes one doubt it.
 
W

WALMART

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So, just for clarification, does it stand that according to Jung, a healthy individual might, for instance, make frequent use of intuition in both Introverted and Extroverted attitudes. Someone, for instance with only strong Ne or strong Ni might "have issues"?

Here's one that's stuck out to me, in regards to introverted intuitive types:

"But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle."

So, Jung states the simple intensification of intuition in general causes this rift he spoke of earlier.

I would say, to incorporate dichotomies apart from the nature of the one in question - the way intuition contrasts against sense, feeling against thought. To pursue one's intuitions, to make sense of them in an objective fashion, for example.
 

Anna Jorovic

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Motivation is neither subjective nor objective, it is a compulsion and unrelated to the interpretation of information and decision making process. ELABORATION: Motivation only deals with how long it takes to make decisions and interpret information.

"To not use these is just remembering facts" That's the gist of it. Te is essentially just dealing with factual information and drawing obvious conclusions from the data, especially in the ESTJ.

Ti welcomes seemingly extraneous information in an attempt to cross reference it with new data to see if it truly isn't extraneous and something can be drawn from it. Te already discarded the extraneous information, which leads Te users to seem close-minded, for in their mind they are looking at only whats relevant to the current situation.

No one truly wins on the objectivity scale, it's extremely close. ENTJs and ESTJs are just a hair more objective than INTPs and ISTPs because of the simple first letter, as Extroversion is generally accepted as objective while Introversion is generally accepted as subjective, this idea has gone beyond the point of merely ideas but entire lifestyles.

But if we define "objectivity" as having the view that closest resembles the universe we live in, I think I-TPs would, as a whole, be far above E-TJs. It takes a lot of good thinking to strip through the crap most people believe out there in the outer world, and I think I-TPs would be better at sifting through this.

Of course, I'm always re-thinking through my ideas even when I find a little bit of new information haha. I think it's a bad idea to dismiss information out of hand.

An example of what you describe as the Te method is the drug companies' approach to science - "we have to find a cure for [insert], therefore we will do loads of experiments very quickly and find it - and don't bother taking an interest in the results of the tests which don't get what we're looking for because that's not what we're here for guys!" Which isn't a real scientific approach, in my opinion. :)

Doesn't what your saying now contradict your post about Te being more objective than Ti, Ne and Ni put together?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Here's one that's stuck out to me, in regards to introverted intuitive types:

"But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle."

Is this referring to extraverted intuiton, as well, though, or just introverted intuition, because it is in the section about the introverted intuitive?

I do feel as though I start to cannablize myself if I stay inside my head too much. I feel as though to be happy, I need inputs, not merely space to think. And maybe stuff that has nothing to do with thinking, like love and beauty. Sometimes I find I get incredible benefits and joy from letting go of thinking in some moments. This does not mean that I think "thinking" is not desirable, merely that it can interfere with accessing other things. I do not think it is mutually exclusive with those things, though.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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But if we define "objectivity" as having the view that closest resembles the universe we live in, I think I-TPs would, as a whole, be far above E-TJs. It takes a lot of good thinking to strip through the crap most people believe out there in the outer world, and I think I-TPs would be better at sifting through this.

Of course, I'm always re-thinking through my ideas even when I find a little bit of new information haha. I think it's a bad idea to dismiss information out of hand.

An example of what you describe as the Te method is the drug companies' approach to science - "we have to find a cure for [insert], therefore we will do loads of experiments very quickly and find it - and don't bother taking an interest in the results of the tests which don't get what we're looking for because that's not what we're here for guys!" Which isn't a real scientific approach, in my opinion. :)

Doesn't what your saying now contradict your post about Te being more objective than Ti, Ne and Ni put together?

Yes, indeed it does contradict my former statement. I was using it as a hyperbole originally before we got into Te objective/subjective debate.

In all essence, everyone's equally objective, it's just expressed in more indirect/direct ways.

Some of the best inventions have come from experiments that were designed to yield something else entirely.
 

Anna Jorovic

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Yes, indeed it does contradict my former statement. I was using it as a hyperbole originally before we got into Te objective/subjective debate.

In all essence, everyone's equally objective, it's just expressed in more indirect/direct ways.

Some of the best inventions have come from experiments that were designed to yield something else entirely.

If I'd known you weren't being serious it would have saved us this whole dumb conversation haha!

Yes, curiosity is very important, and can lead to many places you wouldn't expect.
 
W

WALMART

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Is this referring to extraverted intuiton, as well, though, or just introverted intuition, because it is in the section about the introverted intuitive?

I do feel as though I start to cannablize myself if I stay inside my head too much. I feel as though to be happy, I need inputs, not merely space to think. And maybe stuff that has nothing to do with thinking, like love and beauty. Sometimes I find I get incredible benefits and joy from letting go of thinking in some moments. This does not mean that I think "thinking" is not desirable, merely that it can interfere with accessing other things. I do not think it is mutually exclusive with those things, though.

That is explicitly under the introverted intuitive. Here is the same theme of the concept (the omission or repression or suppression of a function), this time for Ne,

"They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other's mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things... his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type -- only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation."

I enjoy the concept of irrationality, put against that perpetual cycle of thought you speak of. I think that is my favorite piece of Jung's theory, at the moment.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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"They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other's mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things... his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type -- only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation."

Holy shit, he's right. This manifest itself in excessive fears of creating unwanted pregnancy, STD's, intestinal parasites, etc.
 

greenfairy

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I disagree. In any case, my brain is too lazy to juggle conflicting systems without a headache. That may change in the future.
 
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