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The ACTUAL Top Two Functions for Each Type

Concur_Withall

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NFJ
Here is a list of my proposed top two functions for each type. The changes: P/J should refer to whether a type is rational or irrational as a result of their dominant function, i.e. Ps have a dominant perception function, Js have a dominant judgement function; the second function has the same attitude as the first, however this attitude is not quite as strong. Both of these ideas are derived from Jung, who lists Ni/Si dominants as irrationals, and says that the conscious attitude is introverted for an introvert, not partly introverted and partly extroverted as MBTI says.

For example: INTP is Ni>Ti. The Ti is less differentiated, and so INTP will show more signs of Te than of Ne.

Complete List:

Irrationals:
INTP: Ni > Ti
INFP: Ni > Fi
ISTP: Si > Ti
ISFP: Si > Fi
ENTP: Ne > Te
ENFP: Ne > Fe
ESTP: Se > Te
ESFP: Se > Fe


Rationals:
INTJ: Ti > Ni
ISTJ: Ti > Si
INFJ: Fi > Ni
ISFJ: Fi > Si
ENTJ: Te > Ne
ESTJ: Te > Se
ENFJ: Fe > Ne
ESFJ: Fe > Se
 

RaptorWizard

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I hope you're joking; there's mountains of information out there running counter to your refining of the function orders here. The odds of you being right and 95% of the other expert MBTI-analysts being wrong is so enormously low, that considering it as a possibility would be like going out into the pasture and counting the beans, or picking every single hair out of the haystack one by one to find the needle.
 

reckful

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I hope you're joking; there's mountains of information out there running counter to your refining of the function orders here. The odds of you being right and 95% of the other expert MBTI-analysts being wrong is so enormously low, that considering it as a possibility would be like going out into the pasture and counting the beans, or picking every single hair out of the haystack one by one to find the needle.

I hope you're joking. As further discussed in my posts in this thread, I'd say the OP reflects Jung's view. And FYI, there's really no respectable body of empirical support for anybody's functions model.

The MBTI dichotomies, which substantially line up with four of the Big Five dimensions, now have decades of studies in support of their validity and reliability, while the "cognitive functions" — which James Reynierse (in the 2009 article linked below) refers to as a "category mistake" — have barely been studied. And the reason they've barely been studied is that, unlike the dichotomies, they've never been taken seriously by any significant number of academic psychologists. Going all the way back to 1985, the MBTI Manual described or referred to somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,500 MBTI studies and, as I understand it, not one of the many study-based correlations reported in the manual were framed in terms of the functions. And many more dichotomy-based studies have been done in the years since. The third edition of the MBTI Manual was published in 1998 and, as Reynierse notes in the linked article, it cited a grand total of eight studies involving "type dynamics" (i.e., the functions model) — which Reynierse summarizes as "six studies that failed, one with a questionable interpretation, and one where contradictory evidence was offered as support."

Dario Nardi's one of the leading cognitive functions guys (as I'm sure you know), and his test is arguably the most-linked-to cognitive functions test — but, as further discussed in this INTJforum post, INTJs typically get high Ni scores and high Ne scores (with Ni not substantially favored over Ne), and high Te scores and high Ti scores (with Te not substantially favored over Ti), when they take Nardi's test.

As I understand it, there isn't a single function-based test on or off the internet on which INTJs reliably get high Ni and Te scores and low Ti and Ne scores and INTPs reliably get high Ti and Ne scores and low Ni and Te scores — never mind scoring the third and fourth functions in a way that matches the model.

And what functions model should a good test be matching, anyway? Myers acknowledged that the majority of Jung scholars believed (rightly, IMHO) that Jung's model for a Ti-dom with an N auxiliary was Ti-Ni-Se-Fe. Myers' model was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe — although, as explained in my linked post (below), Myers, despite some lip service to the contrary, essentially abandoned the functions for the dichotomies. Harold Grant's model — followed by Berens and Nardi and most of the other modern functions theorists — was Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.

If you're interested, you can find out quite a bit more about the place of the functions (or lack thereof) in the MBTI's history — and the tremendous gap between the dichotomies and the functions in terms of scientific respectability — in this long INTJforum post.

Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for the two links in that post:


The Reynierse article also talks about the attitude of the auxiliary function, and quotes Carl Alfred Meier — Jung's longtime assistant and the first president of the Jung Institute in Zürich — explaining that Jung viewed the auxiliary function as having the same attitude as the dominant.
 

skylights

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:popc1:

Thanks, [MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION], awesome explanation. I need to read more about all of this.
 
Last edited:
S

Society

Guest
Here is a list of my proposed top two functions for each type. The changes: P/J should refer to whether a type is rational or irrational as a result of their dominant function, i.e. Ps have a dominant perception function, Js have a dominant judgement function; the second function has the same attitude as the first, however this attitude is not quite as strong. Both of these ideas are derived from Jung, who lists Ni/Si dominants as irrationals, and says that the conscious attitude is introverted for an introvert, not partly introverted and partly extroverted as MBTI says.

For example: INTP is Ni>Ti. The Ti is less differentiated, and so INTP will show more signs of Te than of Ne.

so let's say you are correct, and INTPs are Ni>Ti...
except for all the [mistakenly named] "INTPs" who have typed themselves according to either the understanding that they have Ti>Ne>Si>Fe, or the INTPs typed according to tests built on the idea of looking for Ti>Ne>Si>Fe, or the INTPs who have being typed according to other people who learned to seek Ti>Ne>Si>Fe, as well as the accumilative knowledge about those "INTPs" - from the general type related statistics down to the personal experiences, and even the gradual mutation of what the functions and letters mean based on how decades of people who have thought they had the functions and/or observed the functions in others have noted.

this doesn't mean that there isn't any potential insight into yourself and others to be gained from revising, refining or correcting past understandings of the functions or MBTI, understanding the mechanisms of typology in a form closer to the original might reveal meaning that got lost since (or alternatively, in misunderstanding the original meanings in a different way then others do, you might end up stumbling upon something that works better), but for that to work you have to approach it as an altogether different typology system - a distant cousin to the ones in current use but not much more.... much like we attempt to separate between mbti and socionics (yay the power of capital letters), and a bit less successfully separate mbti from keirsey.
 

the state i am in

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I hope you're joking. As further discussed in my posts in this thread, I'd say the OP reflects Jung's view. And FYI, there's really no respectable body of empirical support for anybody's functions model.

scientifically, it may in some respects be a game in its early stages. when looking at the bodies of advanced self-observation done by thousands of years of yogis aiming to perfect the human powers of self-observation through meditation, exercise, and proprioceptive mind-body integration, there is at least an ongoing recognition of the two "channels" pertinent in human existence (which outline a basic lateralization story, which still seems be the ground for understanding jung's introverted perception extroverted perception split). to organize the similarity within this dimension across the other dimensions of type dynamics is useful. it helps us understand functionality far deeper than a one-to-one relationship with what we can tangibly observe would allow for. it primes our ability to hypothesize, and embeds facts in a coherent, conceptual framework, a logic of more complex conditionals than can be contextualized solely through observing at one scale only.

The MBTI dichotomies, which substantially line up with four of the Big Five dimensions, now have decades of studies in support of their validity and reliability, while the "cognitive functions" — which James Reynierse (in the 2009 article linked below) refers to as a "category mistake" — have barely been studied. And the reason they've barely been studied is that, unlike the dichotomies, they've never been taken seriously by any significant number of academic psychologists. Going all the way back to 1985, the MBTI Manual described or referred to somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,500 MBTI studies and, as I understand it, not one of the many study-based correlations reported in the manual were framed in terms of the functions. And many more dichotomy-based studies have been done in the years since. The third edition of the MBTI Manual was published in 1998 and, as Reynierse notes in the linked article, it cited a grand total of eight studies involving "type dynamics" (i.e., the functions model) — which Reynierse summarizes as "six studies that failed, one with a questionable interpretation, and one where contradictory evidence was offered as support."

Dario Nardi's one of the leading cognitive functions guys (as I'm sure you know), and his test is arguably the most-linked-to cognitive functions test — but, as further discussed in this INTJforum post, INTJs typically get high Ni scores and high Ne scores (with Ni not substantially favored over Ne), and high Te scores and high Ti scores (with Te not substantially favored over Ti), when they take Nardi's test.

As I understand it, there isn't a single function-based test on or off the internet on which INTJs reliably get high Ni and Te scores and low Ti and Ne scores and INTPs reliably get high Ti and Ne scores and low Ni and Te scores — never mind scoring the third and fourth functions in a way that matches the model.

to take a state snapshot, a static metric of something incredibly complex is often misleading. so much depends on how you organize your conditions of perception to assess what the relevant scale of wholeness is. so it goes with cognition. while a language based test may not provide an effective medium through which to observe the whole of type dynamics, at the same time, Nardi has his own position on whether you can observe relatively consistent cognitive functions patterns across type with brain imaging. his position is yes. he wrote a book on it. he, of course, is more interested in the dynamics of complex systems (at least according to his description of his research interests and computational play on his website).

And what functions model should a good test be matching, anyway? Myers acknowledged that the majority of Jung scholars believed (rightly, IMHO) that Jung's model for a Ti-dom with an N auxiliary was Ti-Ni-Se-Fe. Myers' model was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe — although, as explained in my linked post (below), Myers, despite some lip service to the contrary, essentially abandoned the functions for the dichotomies. Harold Grant's model — followed by Berens and Nardi and most of the other modern functions theorists — was Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.

i would be interested in hearing more about this story. i would like to understand jungian thought better, both in the ethereal moments within his mind that have somewhat dissipated and the ongoing conversations that those moments have sparked when expressed through teaching and writing. i know that people tend to argue over jung's type as well as his notion of type dynamics, in part because of the difficulty in sussing out some of his unstated assumptions. at other times, there seems to be more direct contradiction. regardless, his fascination with kundalini and specifically hieros gamos, the sacred marriage of masculine and feminine, not only embodies this dimension, the dimension of judgment, but also the dimension of the j/p split, the dimension of perspective. the j/s split notion is consistent with the research that demonstrates hemispheric preference waxes and then wanes throughout the two life phases. the idea at this scale is very similar to the move towards wholeness as a path of both individuation up to the tipping point and then spiritual absolution into the singularity of god after that jung presupposes throughout his work. this underlying foundation speaks to a highly unified model more compelling and consistent than a fixation solely on the language games would permit. it allows one aspect of the dualism to be the foundation for the other, without either becoming so entrenched that they cannot be let go in service of this move towards absolution.

If you're interested, you can find out quite a bit more about the place of the functions (or lack thereof) in the MBTI's history — and the tremendous gap between the dichotomies and the functions in terms of scientific respectability — in this long INTJforum post.

Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for the two links in that post:


The Reynierse article also talks about the attitude of the auxiliary function, and quotes Carl Alfred Meier — Jung's longtime assistant and the first president of the Jung Institute in Zürich — explaining that Jung viewed the auxiliary function as having the same attitude as the dominant.

his critique of type dynamics as "category mistakes" seems to me to be misinformed. i don't get the sense that he's well-versed in typological thinking, complex systems theory, or logical type errors. the latter is the biggest issue. to say that the facts only exist at one scale of observation, the whole of a single type, laid out flat without any attempt to preserve the intentionality within it as a kind of embodied internal hierarchy, just doesn't work. you don't get good models that way. and you definitely don't do better at producing a coherent theory without a grammar to organize the representations you are employing. to just treat everything as a static object in real space leads to issues of scaling, which is where the kind of vulgarized response to dualistic thinking, underwritten by the j/p split, starts to show itself to become non-sensical.

moreover, there's more dimensions of what we call personality than simply socio-cognitive functions. the enneagram provides a better window into the psychosocial aspects of ego development. one focuses on language types of internal communication processes. the other on the way that those are embodied through tangible emotionally monitored social relationships. simply flattening out the model, losing the internal coherency as a result, makes it impossible to usefully theorize cross-contextually and generate new fabrics to weave together the already woven ones.
 

Alea_iacta_est

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NOT A TYPOLOGY EXPERT WHATSOEVER, BUT: I think Ni is a driving force for the INTP, but I don't believe it surpasses Ti, the dominant function. Perhaps we unknowingly develop or even mimic Ni when Ti builds multiple frameworks, eventually training our own mind to see relating connections and parts even unconsciously. I imagine that when Ti has exercised many branches of thought, that the brain can unconsciously recognize patterns that are similar to it from the use of Si. The combination of Ti and Si working together would act much like Ni, for excessive use of Ti and Si in this pattern would allow some people to see patterns and possibilities quicker than most, for Ti would already have the background information stored in branches and Si would unconsciously compare previous outcomes of Ti networks and their formation to form a prediction for the future. So could it be that the INTP just uses pseudo-Ni?
 

Mal12345

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Jung probably wouldn't disagree with this, as he never specified that the auxiliary function had to have the opposite attitude of the dominant function.
 

the state i am in

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as for whether the cognitive functions are useful, that like all things kind of depends on what your goals are and what context you are working from/out of. if your goal is to relate to others better, empathizing with the other is at least if not more important than understanding them. empathy and understanding are similar and somewhat interrelated processes, but they privilege different things. one is designed to produce something you can explain and articulate (and perhaps objectively see through the mind's eye). the other, empathy, is simply a way of being with another, of matching strides, of showing you're committing to being fully present body and soul in each other's worlds.

the cognitive functions can be great predictive tools, which can help provide orientations for other-observation and for self-observation. but opening to observing through different cognitive processes than our privileged ones, in aiming our own self-development to liberate our own internal minorities and support them in reaching for their own sustainable plan for to-scale independence, is a goal that clearly a language of something can't sufficiently replace the practice of. whether this practice follows a kind of logical placement or not, driven less by our whimsically embodied, culturally conditioned ideas of ourselves or more by a kind of deep, intrinsic, relatively flexible living wisdom, well i guess that is part of where the question of type dynamics really lies. whether we are only what is expressed of us, and whether that facticity is our reality, or whether our potential and the processes behind the process are also as constitutive of us, complex as they are.

again, priorities give birth to perspective, and vice versa. this is true how life and mind flow through us, how we become something through them. looking back on this becoming not solely as a story but also as a spread/sowing of identifiable seeds is the value of typological thinking. it's through this that we can observe the cognitive functions. without years of planting and observing the harvests, the predictive context, the emergence of stable, unified, generalizable perspective, doesn't exist. it's something that has to be acquired.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I think having ti, ni and ne and te as pretty high functions for INTs actually seems to fit with what I recall Jung saying,as how both "attitudes" exist in everyone, and an introverted thinking type can apply thinking externally, for instance, and that it's actually important to use both attitudes. I'm too lazy to find an exact quote, but maybe someone else can help me.

@superunknown maybe?

Anyway, it fits with my results on that test. Si might have been higher than Te, though.
 

Anna Jorovic

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INTP
NOT A TYPOLOGY EXPERT WHATSOEVER, BUT: I think Ni is a driving force for the INTP, but I don't believe it surpasses Ti, the dominant function. Perhaps we unknowingly develop or even mimic Ni when Ti builds multiple frameworks, eventually training our own mind to see relating connections and parts even unconsciously. I imagine that when Ti has exercised many branches of thought, that the brain can unconsciously recognize patterns that are similar to it from the use of Si. The combination of Ti and Si working together would act much like Ni, for excessive use of Ti and Si in this pattern would allow some people to see patterns and possibilities quicker than most, for Ti would already have the background information stored in branches and Si would unconsciously compare previous outcomes of Ti networks and their formation to form a prediction for the future. So could it be that the INTP just uses pseudo-Ni?

I'm an INTP and don't relate to Ni whatsoever. I'd actually say Ni would be completely incompatible with the INTP thinking style (you can't unconsciously/intuitively "know" things while questioning everything and being open to numerous possibilities).
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I'm an INTP and don't relate to Ni whatsoever. I'd actually say Ni would be completely incompatible with the INTP thinking style (you can't unconsciously/intuitively "know" things while questioning everything and being open to numerous possibilities).

Most INTPs actually test high for Ni on cognitive function tests, did you take the test reckful linked perchance?

Isn't it a tad ironic that you put faith in the fact that Ni is incompatible with the INTP yet subsequently state that the thinking style is open to numerous possibilities and being open towards ideas? In that case I might want to use the word "might" in place of would in your statement.

Elaboration: You actually can unconsciously and intuitively know things while still questioning everything and being open to numerous possibilities easily, for one can simply discard the intuitive understanding for an external and more efficient model. Also, most INTPs possess above average developed Ni, but unlike their INTJ cousins, INTPs are less likely to trust Ni and will work around it to try and find a logical explanation using Ti.
 

Anna Jorovic

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Dec 18, 2013
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INTP
Here is a list of my proposed top two functions for each type. The changes: P/J should refer to whether a type is rational or irrational as a result of their dominant function, i.e. Ps have a dominant perception function, Js have a dominant judgement function; the second function has the same attitude as the first, however this attitude is not quite as strong. Both of these ideas are derived from Jung, who lists Ni/Si dominants as irrationals, and says that the conscious attitude is introverted for an introvert, not partly introverted and partly extroverted as MBTI says.

For example: INTP is Ni>Ti. The Ti is less differentiated, and so INTP will show more signs of Te than of Ne.

Complete List:

Irrationals:
INTP: Ni > Ti
INFP: Ni > Fi
ISTP: Si > Ti
ISFP: Si > Fi
ENTP: Ne > Te
ENFP: Ne > Fe
ESTP: Se > Te
ESFP: Se > Fe


Rationals:
INTJ: Ti > Ni
ISTJ: Ti > Si
INFJ: Fi > Ni
ISFJ: Fi > Si
ENTJ: Te > Ne
ESTJ: Te > Se
ENFJ: Fe > Ne
ESFJ: Fe > Se

In your system I'm probably an ISTJ then - or an introverted ENFP. :)

You haven't explained your reasons for changing the function orders, so I can't say whether I'd agree or not.
 

HongDou

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If you're telling me that I use Fe over Fi you done fucked up.
 

Anna Jorovic

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Dec 18, 2013
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Most INTPs actually test high for Ni on cognitive function tests, did you take the test reckful linked perchance?

Isn't it a tad ironic that you put faith in the fact that Ni is incompatible with the INTP yet subsequently state that the thinking style is open to numerous possibilities and being open towards ideas? In that case I might want to use the word "might" in place of would in your statement.

I think I've taken it before, but I'll take it again now. I'm sat here eating chocolate, and have a completely free day so why not haha?

I completely agree haha. Put it down to my lazy writing style (it would take aaages to qualify every statement in a post to the level I do in my head, and it would bore the brains out of people, so I try not to).
 

Alea_iacta_est

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This thread is very intriguing and stimulating, and I wonder if perhaps the interpreting dichotomy (S/N) leads to trusting and not trusting certain functions. For instance, an INTP might trust Ne over Ni based on the fact that Ni is too mysterious and unconscious, and an INTP might trust Si over Se because he or she is more comfortable cross-referencing past experiences and applying them to situations to figure out the next step (Si) over over-analyzing the environment/situations for telltale signs of the next step (Se). Even though Ni and Se are not trusted, they could still have the possibility of being as developed or more developed than their counterpart.
 
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