• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Patterns and MBTI

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
To survive we needed to recognise patterns in the reality around us. And there are two mistakes we can make.

We can fail to recognise patterns that are there, or we can see patterns that are not there.

It can prove fatal not to recognise patterns that are there (not to see the tiger hiding in the bush is fatal), but it is not fatal to see patterns that are not there (such as patterns in the clouds or the stars).

And so over millennia we have survived seeing patterns that are not there. For instance, we see patterns in astrology that are not there, and we see patterns in mbti that are not there.
 

reckful

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
656
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
If you want deep, don't hire a mole. That's what my Aunt Trudy always used to say.
 

Stephano

Almöhi
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
1,105
MBTI Type
NFP
You are making fine logical reasonings but personality is a pattern that exists. Do really think ESTJs and INFPs have the same behavior and that the difference is just an illusion?
 
W

WALMART

Guest
Nobody is onto what Jung was onto. I have yet to find someone that has interpreted the same things I have from his writings.

+1 for your theory.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
You are making fine logical reasonings but personality is a pattern that exists. Do really think ESTJs and INFPs have the same behavior and that the difference is just an illusion?

I think applying a psychometric test to oneself is made for illusion.

And applying a psychometric test to family, friends, celebrities and pets is also illusory.

And applying a psychometric test that has had no random double blind experiments applied in 75 years is asking for illusions.

Look, people love illusions. And they like to illusion others. If someone asks for my starsign in a bar, I know they are trying to pick me up. And mbti is astrology for the college educated.

And no one likes to be disillusioned so I carry a heavy burden on Typology Central.
 

reckful

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
656
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
I think applying a psychometric test to oneself is made for illusion.

And applying a psychometric test to family, friends, celebrities and pets is also illusory.

And applying a psychometric test that has had no random double blind experiments applied in 75 years is asking for illusions.

Look, people love illusions. And they like to illusion others. If someone asks for my starsign in a bar, I know they are trying to pick me up. And mbti is astrology for the college educated.

And no one likes to be disillusioned so I carry a heavy burden on Typology Central.

Identical twins raised in separate households have been found to test as the same type substantially more often than less genetically similar pairs.

How is that a "pattern that isn't there"?

Please clarify what you mean when you say no "random double blind experiments" have been "applied in 75 years." What would such an "experiment" involve?
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Do really think ESTJs and INFPs have the same behavior and that the difference is just an illusion?

When you eat a round cookie, do you start with the right side or the left side?
 

Forever_Jung

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
2,644
MBTI Type
ESFJ
When you eat a round cookie, do you start with the right side or the left side?

The right side, of course, just like my mama raised me to. Eat from the right, you're in God's sight, eat from the left, you'll end up bereft.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I think that patterns are not always just there or not there. Sometimes they start and stop and start and stop; sometimes they are so drawn out over time we would never be able to recognize them; sometimes they are just minor reiterations in long chains of chaos.

The important thing in my opinion is to use the tools you have to make the most out of life. If seeing a certain pattern helps you be happy and healthy, and helps you help others be happy and healthy, then it is a beneficial usage of that perspective. If it is not beneficial to you anymore, then it is harmful to remain trapped by its viewpoint, and it would behoove you to try other tools. You must keep track of your own thinking and decide how to steer the course of your own life.
 

Stephano

Almöhi
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
1,105
MBTI Type
NFP
jaguar said:
Stephano said:
Do really think ESTJs and INFPs have the same behavior and that the difference is just an illusion?
When you eat a round cookie, do you start with the right side or the left side?

Since a round cookie hasn't got any real sides because it's round (ideally), it depends upon how you hold the cookie in your hand. I'm right-handed and therefore I will most likely start with left side from my view. But it doesn't matter with which side I start, because each side is averagely equal. How exactly is this invalidating my argument? :thinking: :bunnyd:

Look, people love illusions. And they like to illusion others.

Yes, religion for example.

MBTI is astrology for college educated.

A bit, most type descriptions on the internet are extremely biased. But that's what people made out of it. Jung and the Myers-Briggs ladies took it serious and as a science.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Since a round cookie hasn't got any real sides because it's round (ideally), it depends upon how you hold the cookie in your hand. I'm right-handed and therefore I will most likely start with left side from my view. But it doesn't matter with which side I start, because each side is averagely equal. How exactly is this invalidating my argument?

Hopefully, it will come to you. If not, you can always read Jung.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
It's all a lot of filtration.

Once you have picked the scab that is human rationalisation processes, then everything just becomes lots of different perceptions being filtered through brains and out again.

It doesn't exist, a tiger doesn't exist, none of it really exists. But it exists for us in our heads regardless of whatever variable produced us, because we survive by categorisation of information in order to stem the insanity of empty meaning with the insanity of comprehension and control. But maybe I'm false in my perception, however to me that seems to be as close to truth as I can get.

And even then it falls in on itself since I have to accept human concepts of truth AS existing in truth.

But this is largely pointless and a little bit stupid, since it doesn't benefit me or anyone else in the short period of existence we have, just can't shake it, that's all.

Pff nihilism...it's for kids. Now boredom, that's the true genius of human beings.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
I think that patterns are not always just there or not there. Sometimes they start and stop and start and stop; sometimes they are so drawn out over time we would never be able to recognize them; sometimes they are just minor reiterations in long chains of chaos.

The important thing in my opinion is to use the tools you have to make the most out of life. If seeing a certain pattern helps you be happy and healthy, and helps you help others be happy and healthy, then it is a beneficial usage of that perspective. If it is not beneficial to you anymore, then it is harmful to remain trapped by its viewpoint, and it would behoove you to try other tools. You must keep track of your own thinking and decide how to steer the course of your own life.

Of course a false pattern may help to make you happy and healthy, but is doesn't make it true.

And we know how to determine which patterns are true and which patterns are false and it is called the scientific method.

But even more important is our personal integrity. And to continue to recognise a false pattern shows a lack of personal integrity. It also shows a lack of intellectual integrity.

And quite frankly, it is simply corrupt.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Yes, religion for example.

Yes, we love illusions. And illusions are an essential part of our culture.

The only problem arises when we confuse illusions with reality.

Illusions that are not confused with reality are created by the suspension of disbelief.

For instance, we suspend our disbelief when we go to the movies, or read a novel, or hear an opera, or see a ballet, look at a painting or sculpture.

So the defining feature of the suspension of disbelief is that it is voluntary and limited in time.

And those who confuse illusion with reality are unable to limit it in time, and are unable to escape from their illusion.

It is wise to remember that the work of children is play and the purpose of play is to learn to distinguish between the imagination and reality.

So those who fail to distinguish between illusion and reality have failed in a milestone of their psychological development.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
And we know how to determine which patterns are true and which patterns are false and it is called the scientific method.

Even the scientific method runs into problems when we hit quantum probability...
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
You miss my point, Mole. Life is not so simple. Patterns are and are not at the same time. Perspective is a matter of choice.

Alas dear Skylights, reality is not a matter of choice. Kick a rock and see.

And indeed your statement that patterns are and are not at the same time is a violation of the principle of logic called, "The Excluded Middle".

I do understand your belief that thing can be and not be at the same time makes you feel good, perhaps makes you feel in charge and powerful, but most of all makes you look good in the eyes of the New Age.

But you belief is simply untrue and indeed violates the rules of logic.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Even the scientific method runs into problems when we hit quantum probability...

This false belief derives from the mystical belief in Quantum Mechanics.

But no physicist on Earth has a mystical belief in Quantum Mechanics.

The mystical belief in Quantum Mechanics tries to hijack the status of Quantum Mechanics for a false mystical belief.

And this wheese is as old as the hills as Mary Baker Edy tried to hijack the status of science in the 19th century in creating her religion called, "Christian Science".

And by the way, Quantum Mechanics is our most accurate scientific fact arrived at using the scientific method.

So rather than Quantum Mechanics running into problems with the scientific method, Quantum Mechanics confirms the scientific method.
 

reckful

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
656
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
So those who fail to distinguish between illusion and reality have failed in a milestone of their psychological development.

And those who fail to distinguish between black-and-white thinking and shades-of-gray reality have failed in a milestone of their psychological development.

Categorizing someone as an "introvert" based on a self-assessment test with a large body of data in support of its reliability and validity is subject to greater error, and different forms of error, than many of the categorizations that are made in the "hard sciences." But if you think that categorizing someone as an introvert has the same scientific status as categorizing someone as a Capricorn, you're using a definition of "scientific" that fails to properly distinguish between the respectable branches of psychology, sociology, economics and the other so-called "soft sciences" and pseudosciences like astrology.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Quantum Mechanics confirms the scientific method.

I do not know that you can really confirm the scientific method. It is a method, not an answer.

All I am saying... is that while I trust and encourage the scientific method... I do not think it is a panacea.

And I do not think the MBTI used in moderation is evil. But I think that is where you and I will have to agree to disagree!

Hope you have a good night, Mole. :)
 
Top