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Visual Reading of Cognitive Types

chaoticbrain

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Things like personality theory can also be useful in helping a person gain insight about themselves and others. That's my interest. And the introspection involved in uncovering your type and the type of others I think is one of the most important parts of the process, for it develops a shift in perspective when it comes to understanding the self. I would rather have to dig deeply to figure this all out vs have someone look at me and tell me. What is gained by that?

What type exactly is it measuring, if it's not 'exactly' measuring the functions? How is that non-ambiguous?



Just looking for an opinion of someone who has experience with this. Thanks for answering.

Well, I personally think introspection should be involved, but your introspection should be around how your functions have affected you in your life and so on imo. One thing to note too, is we tend to think of the function pairs as "races" of the human race in a way, they don't tell you things about someone's personality per se, but rather about how someone's mind functions, theres going to be correlations around that when looking at people as a group, but each individual is very different.

This video may be relevant.

 

chaoticbrain

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It's interesting though too, that you guys mentioned changing the terminology because of the differences with Jung's theory, we've talked about this before.



I mentioned though that I thought this was too mystic sounding, and that might be one of the reasons we never ended up implementing this ^. Though looking back on it I wonder if that would have been a good idea, it's probably too late to implement now though.
 
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brainheart

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Well, I personally think introspection should be involved, but your introspection should be around how your functions have affected you in your life and so on imo. One thing to note too, is we tend to think of the function pairs as "races" of the human race in a way, they don't tell you things about someone's personality per se, but rather about how someone's mind functions, theres going to be correlations around that when looking at people as a group, but each individual is very different.

This video may be relevant.


I didn't mean to imply the introspection should end once you figure out your functions, not in the slightest.


As far as the video goes, I think Jung enables you to see how it works in humanity as well. But I get what he's saying. And I agree it's good to look at patterns. I really don't disagree with most of his ideas (although I do think he overemphasizes typing people via physical characteristics), and I can really see the Fi/Te in people vs the Fe/Ti. I think that's pretty obvious. I have a harder time getting a handle on the perceiving functions- maybe perception signals are a little more subtle. Anyway-

My primary criticism of the method is that I think if you're going to type someone off of a ten minute video, you should expect a large margin of error, especially when it comes to what leads and what's secondary. People behave differently when they are talking to others vs a camera, and can be a lot more reserved with certain people and a lot more expressive with others. It's interesting, because a video of a good friend of mine was used on the cognitive types website as an example of a FiNe who "actually got it right". I told him about this, because he didn't know it was there (and I knew he would never give permission) and he said, "Oh, I hated that video, I was so uncomfortable and miserable and didn't feel like I was being the real me at all." And it made me laugh, because the FiNe video put out by cognitive types really does seem to emphasize uncomfortable, awkward FiNe vs how people who use FiNe can be when around friends or when relaxed. It's almost as if this characteristic is stressed to prove the point that they have the sad face, while for SeFi the videos are overwhelmingly 'sassy'. I guess it makes it easier to see the type, but I wonder if it creates a caricature vs an honest, well-rounded portrayal.
 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] I agree that those words could be a big generalization, but I think it's less of a generalization than other things.

I'm looking at Fiona apple, and I think she's actually an SeFi who isn't "sassy" though her general way of acting is very much Se-lead.
 
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Stansmith

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[MENTION=18818]chaoticbrain[/MENTION]

How about kid Cudi?

 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=18818]chaoticbrain[/MENTION]

How about kid Cudi?


I'm pretty sure he's TiSe.

Notice his face is naturally relaxed all the time compared to the interviewers apparent tension (Ti/Fe).

His rigid posture



His smile doesn't go high up on the face, as is generally the case with T-leads.
 
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brainheart

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@<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=7140" target="_blank">brainheart</a> I agree that those words could be a big generalization, but I think it's less of a generalization than other things.

I'm looking at Fiona apple, and I think she's actually an SeFi who isn't "sassy" though her general way of acting is very much Se-lead.

How is her general way of acting very much Se-lead? I'm especially curious because: 1. She's pretty much universally typed INFP and therefore Fi/Ne. 2. She does the FiNe pained expression which is considered a FiNe unique signal. 3. I've been told many times I look like her and she does seem to talk in a very similar way to me (although I definitely talk more slowly and have far more pauses/ am more stiff/rigid). 4. She seems so Fi lead to me.


"pained" expression at around 5:07 (one example of many I've seen her do):


Edit: Ah, I see this is less a pained expression and more the Se/Ni scowl because her eyes remain manic.

So I'm wondering... what does one do with the information of one's type as determined by cognitive type visual reading?
 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]

She is considered "INFP" on MBTI websites because she has depth and so on, not because she's cognitively Ne/Si. She actually has very heavy Ni, and that's one of the reasons she might come across as introverted or being Fi-lead. SeFi are on average no less deep than NeFi, often times artistic/deep people are mistakenly thought of as FiNe.

In reality these pictures would be nearly impossible from someone who is J-lead. And they display a classic gaze that Se/Ni lead users have.



The "FiNe pained expression" is not really unique to FiNe, and erifrail has noted this, I'm not sure if at the time they really thought it was only in FiNe or if they had just meant there was a specific flavor of the cue only occurring in FiNe, but it is basically just Fi and Pi occurring at the same time, it is by far the most common in FiNe, but SeFi would be in second place.

I posted her on the cognitive type board and some of the members noted her heavy Ni, which I agree with. (at the bottom of page).

http://cognitivetype.boards.net/thread/7/sefi-larin-series-video-discussion?page=2
 
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brainheart

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[MENTION=18818]chaoticbrain[/MENTION],

I see what you mean about the photos (there is no way a photo of me would ever look like that either. I hate having to even look at a camera. In most pics I'm looking downward).

Why would SeFi be second to FiNe in the pained look rather than FiSe?
 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=18818]chaoticbrain[/MENTION],

I see what you mean about the photos (there is no way a photo of me would ever look like that either. I hate having to even look at a camera. In most pics I'm looking downward).

Why would SeFi be second to FiNe in the pained look rather than FiSe?

*shrugs* who knows ? It can appear to varying degrees in different individuals, but SeFi definitely appears to be the second most common ime.
 
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brainheart

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[MENTION=18818]chaoticbrain[/MENTION], what sort of look would you call this:

IMAG0543.jpg
 
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brainheart

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Off in a daze of your thoughts (Ne)? I don't think that's really any signal I'm aware of, theres still much research that can be done on facial expressions imo. :).

Just wondering because that's a pretty typical default expression of mine, and since you posted photos of Fiona Apple I figured I'd give it a shot.

I do think I'm beginning to see the differences between Ne/Si and Ni/Se and Se/Ni in this theory, though. My daughter, for example, has very Ni eyes- that heavy upper lid and the look of staring through. It's pretty consistent with her considering I thought her likely NiFe.
 

chaoticbrain

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Just wondering because that's a pretty typical default expression of mine, and since you posted photos of Fiona Apple I figured I'd give it a shot.

Ya the look there I suppose would give me a JiNe vibe, but theres only specific pictures that can really decipher a lot about someone.
 
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Stansmith

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Fiona does have (clinical) anxiety issues, which I'd assume could be contributing to that manic look you're seeing.
 
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brainheart

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Ya the look there I suppose would give me a JiNe vibe, but theres only specific pictures that can really decipher a lot about someone.

Yeah, I wouldn't expect to be typed off a pic.

[MENTION=18664]Stansmith[/MENTION], thanks for mentioning that because that was something I wanted to get to as well. How do you distinguish between someone who is actually manic and someone who 'looks' manic? Could a Ne/Si, for example, have manic eyes when manic and thus be confused as a Se/Ni?
 
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brainheart

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Ok...

So I was glad to read this and it cannot be ignored as far as this whole cognitive type visual reading goes:

From the originator of the system:

Hello guys,

So this board is designed to demonstrate some more advanced-level signals and psychological evaluations of individuals. It's meant to fill in the unknowns that the Larin series doesn't address. The Larin Series presents only the most contrasted and pure differentiations between signals for the sake of clarity, however visual reading gets a lot more intense as you dig deeper and find what seem like contradictions. Every aspect of a person's life has to be considered, and the whole of their pattern seen at once.

Hard Truth:
The psyche is a complex system, if not the most complex system to date. Whatever the reality of it's operation is, it goes without saying that it's not easy to understand - else we would have cracked it centuries ago. Human psychology is a realm of study that is inseparable from subjectivity, as it is the very origin of subjectivity. As such a subjective comprehension is, to some extent, required to understand this subjective apparatus. And despite present scientific lore which would discredit such an approach, in the realm of psychic analysis it is crucial not to depreciate our abstract perceptions, but instead part of the process is to understand them, how they play a role in the way we built our worldview and even the way in which we form epistemological approaches.

Convenient as isolated sensory analysis would be (sterile Visual Reading), there is no 100% guaranteed magic shortcut to read every person's psyche using an easy template of signals alone. For a large number of people, you really do have to get to know people on a psychic level to understand them. With time this develops templates of the sixteen types using real life examples that you've known psychically and can identify via psychic rhythms. The more people you've understood on a psychological level, the more reference you will have to draw from to understand people's psychologies and how it is affecting their expressions. Sometimes when the signals won't make sense, other things will - such as the thought pattern they are following/chasing which may be identical to a close friend of yours whose type you do know. Looking closer you may begin to see how the person's individual upbringing may be affecting the signals they emit.

Like a profiler or investigator, there are different levels of competence depending on how many variables one is able to read from a situation. The general premise of psychoanalysis is that everything is interconnected and the aim is to see how all things are affecting each other. Personally, this endless puzzle is what draws me to psychology. I'm far from done learning (I have a long way to go) and so I hope the material herein can be a starting point from which others can explore about all the nuances of humanity's psychic algorithm.

http://cognitivetype.boards.net/thread/24/advanced-reading
 

chaoticbrain

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[MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] well that was from 7 months ago, and visual reading can go a long way in 7 months. I think it's likely he doesn't feel that way anymore, maybe I'll ask him sometime.
 
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brainheart

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[MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION] well that was from 7 months ago, and visual reading can go a long way in 7 months. I think it's likely he doesn't feel that way anymore, maybe I'll ask him sometime.

Well it definitely seems like most people on the ct forum don't heed that advice, at least. I really wanted to approach it with an open mind but-

Patti Smith and Leonard Cohen TeNi? Bob Dylan TiSe? I see stuff like that and feel no reason to pay attention.
 

uumlau

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The idea that bounciness/constant body moment = dominant Pe seems a bit misleading though. Fiona Apple and Andrew Garfield (INFPs) strike me as somewhat bouncy and jittery at times, although obviously, not to the same extent as someone like Katy Perry or Quentin Tarantino.

I was typed as Se(Fi/Te)Ni by this system, using the video I posted a long while ago on the videos thread. The person doing the typing sees all of the bouncing in motion of my presentation implies dominant Se. The problem I have with that interpretation is that it was a presentation. I had a very specific set of things I was going to say, a very specific amount of time I was going to say it in, and I wanted it to be at least marginally entertaining (so people might watch the whole thing, instead of stopping 2 minutes in due to sheer boredom). There was about 2-3 hours of planning, preparation of props, etc., and even then I wasn't entirely satisfied with the result.

In other words, I believe my Ni dominance was hidden: that it is what made the whole video appear to be easy, effortless and spontaneous.

I was looking at their website and I was thinking of all of the reasons that would cause a person to be typed as more extroverted vs introverted by their method. First, if you're talking to a friend or recording yourself on your laptop you're going to be more expressive than if you're being interviewed by a stranger- that's just how it is. (or if it's a stranger you get along with you might seem more extroverted vs someone you don't connect with.) Also, I think there are plenty of introverts who extrovert in a 'weird' way which is going to make them seem more extroverted- like Robert Pattinson, as you say. I think a true extrovert will seem less awkward when extroverting, and it will be more consistent. With Pattinson it seems more sporadic- bursts of extroversion. It's kind of like all of the comedians who act wild and crazy but off stage are quiet and reserved. (Or in Spiderman 3 when Spidey gets all awkwardly extroverted and everyone looks at him like he's insane.)

I think it might be possible to determine the cognitive functions used by this method, but I think it would be more difficult to determine the order. There's just way too many variables.

I think you might be on to something, here. I suspect that the visual typing works to figure out which axis of N/S and T/F is present, but it can be misleading, especially with respect to videos that are expressing, perhaps, one's inferior or auxiliary.

Interestingly, (MBTI-knowledgeable) people have watched videos of my salsa dancing and said, "It is sooo obvious you are an INTJ when you dance." Why? An Se dom moves his whole body, everything is moving with the music, following beats that you wouldn't even hear except his body movements point them out to you. I don't do that: my movements tend to stay very smooth and controlled, and my gaze stares off into space. As one ESFP dance teacher told me, "HEY! Look at me! Look at your partner." I have to make a conscious effort to do that.

Well it definitely seems like most people on the ct forum don't heed that advice, at least. I really wanted to approach it with an open mind but-

Patti Smith and Leonard Cohen TeNi? Bob Dylan TiSe? I see stuff like that and feel no reason to pay attention.

The main one I disagreed with (back when I was reviewing them several months ago) was Alanis Morisette as INTP, when she vibes to me the same way most INFPs do, never mind the INFP nature of her music. I suspect the person doing that reading is reading her smiles wrong, as Fe instead of Fi. Perhaps she genetically has a smile that looks Fe.

Also, I suspect that we tend to latch on to one of the two axes more quickly than the other, and try to make the other fit. Most people would start off typing her as NF (due to her music and personality), spot the obvious Ne, and then say INFP, or instead see her as more introspective and lean toward INFJ. The visual typing instead starts off spotting the very obvious Ne, plus the introversion, and is thus stuck choosing between INFP and INTP, and her smile is more typical of Fe. (Again, I think it's more that may very well be genetic, and not an unconscious expression of Fe.)

That would indicate two potential flaws of the visual typing system. 1) people temporarily expressing their inferior side, and 2) people with facial expressions that genetically resemble the cues for a type in most other people, but not the case in hand.
 
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