Why does everyone hate ESFJs? (Warning.... yet another Fe vs. Fi discussion)

[The Great One]

My memory might be a tad fuzzy (remembering exact details is always difficult for me, and she is a minor character.) But how exactly do you know said character's motivations for taking the microphone away? Even if it's an entirely fictional, it would be a guess as to how you could honestly make that assessment instead of her personally being offended by his speech.

Oh wells, as an Inferior Fe type, I would actually say that I'm a tad bit more hysteric and totalitarian around my feeling function, because of the fact that I don't really take a lot of my time out to evaluate things for myself. I just sort of absorb the social atmosphere around me, and whenever I find something that's disagreeable, I get in a giant rant about it. A Fe dom would likely not be so into hysterics, unless they are just a hysterical person in general. Besides Fe doms should actually try to consult more to how they think about things, and don't fear the fact that what something is inside of their head, is not wrong and incorrect. That they are actually capable of thinking things through, instead of going on by what's socially agreeable or not.

My personal opinion on ESFJs are that they are sort of boring as a type. No real strong emotions come when I see them mentioned, just sort of eye rolling at stereotypes.

I watched the whole season of "Breaking Bad" that she was in. The character was clearly an Fe dom ESFJ. You could basically tell by the characters body language that she was upset because he was offending people. This is why she took the mike away.

See, that's how IXFPs make me feel. I don't think ExFJs make me feel that way. It's hard to know, though... I've never been part of an ExFJs inner circle, so maybe I would run into that problem. Interesting.

Well they make you feel like that for a different reason. You feel like you are walking on eggshells when speak to Fi doms because they are so personally sensitive. I agree that they can be a pain in the ass as well.

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

I watched the whole season of "Breaking Bad" that she was in. The character was clearly an Fe dom ESFJ. You could basically tell by the characters body language that she was upset because he was offending people. This is why she took the mike away.

I probably need to watch the series again. I wasn't really paying attention to the background there, just what Walt was doing.

 

[The Great One]

I probably need to watch the series again. I wasn't really paying attention to the background there, just what Walt was doing.

That was from season 3. I think she's in season 2 as well but I can't remember.

 

[Stansmith]

Si just seems like an incredibly confining function. They can be funny and charming, but having a conversation with them is like eating a box of raisins. Sweet, but ehh.

 

[The Great One]

Si just seems like an incredibly confining function. They can be funny and charming, but having a conversation with them is like eating a box of raisins. Sweet, but ehh.

All they want to do is talk about the past anyway.

 

[Starry]

I feel like, when it comes to someone's type, most people can usually agree on the first and third letter but the second and fourth are always split. For example, I remember the debates between ENTJ and ESTP for Gordon Ramsay - the ExTx part was right but people were torn between NJ and SP. Similar thing happened on the Jennifer Lawrence thread iirc where people were leaning towards either ENFJ or ESFP. After looking at multiple Kelly Clarkson threads on Google, people either conceded to ESFJ or ENFP (and people were also torn between the two types for Asuna from Sword Art Online). I've also seen some debates between ISFP/INFJ and ISTP/INTJ. It's very odd, something about whether a perceiving function is dominant or tertiary throws people off but also I noticed each pair can carry themselves in similar ways in certain situations.

You are so right about all of those...ESFJ/ENFP, ISFP/INFJ, ISTP/INTJ... I like being able to see them all together. The response I just made in a different thread... people sorta going back and forth between ENTJ/ESFP... I imagine the common denominator in many of these is an e6 culprit.

I have an ESFJ e2 friend that I was actually afraid of forming a relationship with btw... And I can see all the reasons for the ENFP mistype thingie... and yet it still feels like an insult to ESFJs somehow the reasons they get mistaken for ENFP on sites like these. She's a total ADD scatterbrain like myself...and yet she's not trapped in her head, brilliant...And far more charming than I could ever hope to be.

 

[The Great One]

You are so right about all of those...ESFJ/ENFP, ISFP/INFJ, ISTP/INTJ... I like being able to see them all together. The response I just made in a different thread... people sorta going back and forth between ENTJ/ESFP... I imagine the common denominator in many of these is an e6 culprit.

I have an ESFJ e2 friend that I was actually afraid of forming a relationship with btw... And I can see all the reasons for the ENFP mistype thingie... and yet it still feels like an insult to ESFJs somehow the reasons they get mistaken for ENFP on sites like these. She's a total ADD scatterbrain like myself...and yet she's not trapped in her head, brilliant...And far more charming than I could ever hope to be.

It makes sense why ESFJ's and ENFP's commonly mistype. They both are feelers that are extroverts, and can especially be confused with ESFJ's when the ESFJ has strong Ne. However, I can usually tell the difference because I can see the Fe poke it's nasty little head.

 

[Zarathustra]

I think they are perceived as a perfect storm of being rampantly emotional, of being irrational and illogical (due to tertiary N and inferior T), of being overly traditional, of being too concerned with social convention and/or possessing a pack mentality, of being too unaware of the forest, of being unable to self-reflect on their faults, flaws and failings, being overly controlling and annoying and finally of being intolerant and too dismissive of people and ideas which fall outside their world-view.

Damn.

That was good.

It certainly is true that those traits seem to be supplied in abundance the world over.

Cuz ESFJs are one of the most common types!

Indeed. If you are an ESFJ like you claim then know that I haven't seen any of the above complaints or shortfalls from you. It's unfortunate that I cannot say similar things about my mother.

Ah!

I was wondering how you knew them so well!

Same here!

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

the internet hates extrovert sensors (ESxx) in general, thinking our sole purpose is to make everyone else's lives hell.

I used to believe that, but then I dated an ESxx. I don't think I'm compatible with that type (and I see other ESFPs do the same kind of things that would cause problems for me), but I think there's more to them than I previously thought. I do respect and admire sensors for their more practical approach to life.

Hating on sensors and extroverts is dumb, and no better than extraverted sensors hating on introverted intuitives.

ESFJ's are some of my best friends. People like bruce campbell and louis black. Very fun and over the top random bunch.

Lewis Black is an ESFJ? I always thought of him as an NTP, but now that you mention it, I don't know that we would be comfortable going on stage and ranting like that.

If they're anything like me then they consider themselves closer to weary old war veterans. An insult would be just one in a very long line.

And yet, they seem to get offended by things that aren't even insults, like the fact that I used the phrase "Aragorn is boning an elf." (That's what he was doing! ) I think the thing is that Fi cares a lot about the connotation of a word, while Ti cares a lot about the denotation of the word. I don't think very much about connotations at all, which I think is what causes a lot of my problems with Fi-doms.

I rarely feel a need to intentionally insult people. When it doesn't, it's a response to something that person did that bothered me, especially if I get the impression that they won't appreciate a more hippy-dippy "conflict resolution" approach. Where I run into trouble with FPs, it's because I'm obliviously insensitive, rather than maliciously insensitive. I'm cantankerous sometimes on the surface, but I don't actually like making people feel bad, and I apologize if I do feel that I've hurt someone with my cantankerousness. I understand people not liking being insulted, because I don't like that either. And I understand that people have a right to feel insulted even if I didn't intend that.

What I don't understand is taking things seriously that don't warrant being taken seriously. Like the sex lives of LOTR characters. Are you really telling me that Fi-doms don't have a tendency to do this? Maybe to you, it seems like something that should be taken seriously, but to me, it doesn't.

 

[Standuble]

And yet, they seem to get offended by things that aren't even insults, like the fact that I used the phrase "Aragorn is boning an elf." (That's what he was doing! ) I think the thing is that Fi cares a lot about the connotation of a word, while Ti cares a lot about the denotation of the word. I don't think very much about connotations at all, which I think is what causes a lot of my problems with Fi-doms.

I rarely feel a need to intentionally insult people. When it doesn't, it's a response to something that person did that bothered me, especially if I get the impression that they won't appreciate a more hippy-dippy "conflict resolution" approach. Where I run into trouble with FPs, it's because I'm obliviously insensitive, rather than maliciously insensitive. I'm cantankerous sometimes on the surface, but I don't actually like making people feel bad, and I apologize if I do feel that I've hurt someone with my cantankerousness. I understand people not liking being insulted, because I don't like that either. And I understand that people have a right to feel insulted even if I didn't intend that.

What I don't understand is taking things seriously that don't warrant being taken seriously. Like the sex lives of LOTR characters. Are you really telling me that Fi-doms don't have a tendency to do this?

I am not. What I meant by the quoted remark was not that Fi-doms wouldn't get insulted but that any remarks taken as an insult wouldn't cause them to crack up or suffer some sort of psychotic break. In other words they aren't as fragile as they are perceived to be. I have my suspicions that they aren't really making that big deal out of it and its merely a case of your inferior Fe is freaking out at even the most mediocre of negative emotional displays. But that's a different issue.

It was probably more a matter of tone than connotation in this case. Connotation is an issue but its not the sole issue. A tone applied in the perfect place at the perfect time can cause a negative reaction in Fi-doms. For example, I am laughing and joking around with someone and I think they are enjoying the conversation and are approaching it from the same position as me. Just when I think all is well the person then abruptly lays down an unexpectedly blunt response which implies they don't have the same sentiments about the matter or find me an irritant etc. I would compare it to riding a motorcycle and then suddenly slamming into a brick wall which you never saw coming. It causes a moment of hesitation, uncertainty and often a less than ideal reaction. If the conversation was light-hearted and then you made the above statement in a tone in-congruent to the atmosphere perceived by the Fi user the whole system is thrown into chaos.

But like I said before they may have a sensitive reaction to the comment and withdraw. But they'll get over it and bounce back. Don't worry about it too much.

 

[Starry]

It makes sense why ESFJ's and ENFP's commonly mistype. They both are feelers that are extroverts, and can especially be confused with ESFJ's when the ESFJ has strong Ne. However, I can usually tell the difference because I can see the Fe poke it's nasty little head.

I would expect you to readily see the differences between the two for the reasons we have discussed off-board... but what I've noticed is that it's such a common mistype on these personality forums...that I honest to god think the lines are starting to blur! That the mistyped ESFJ is more recognizable as an ENFP than an actual ENFP It's the 'Gets Things Going' interaction style.

I still don't know what makes some expressions of Fe something I'm entirely comfortable with and welcome...and some expressions terrify me like how it would if you suddenly found yourself surrounded by pod-people...and start slowly reaching for your sword so you can end it all Harakari style (unfortunately you can't kill pod-people.)

 

[Standuble]

So what if someone "suffers a psychotic break"? I don't care about that. Why is it assumed to be so much more healthy to snipe at people for stupid little things than blow up over some big thing? It isn't. I think I prefer the latter over the former.

I don't know if you saw my addendum or not to the previous post but those little things are usually perceived (at least at the time they occur) as big things or related to something big (normally due to a network of connotations like you mentioned earlier.) Chalk that up to a subjective, idiosyncratic value system.

My advice is to stop worrying about it. I'm going to be bold and use a traditional Fe complaint of mine at you here and say that you don't really care about them. You're just annoyed because your Fe is bugging you about violating group values and you're (understandably) blaming them for it. But in this case it isn't their fault, you're the one with the issue by letting it get to you.

Unfortunately it is bed time for me now so this will be my farewell.

 

[Cellmold]

Cuz ESFJs are one of the most common types!

Well duh!

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't know if you saw my addendum or not to the previous post but those little things are usually perceived (at least at the time they occur) as big things or related to something big (normally due to a network of connotations like you mentioned earlier.) Chalk that up to a subjective, idiosyncratic value system.

My advice is to stop worrying about it. I'm going to be bold and use a traditional Fe complaint of mine at you here and say that you don't really care about them. You're just annoyed because your Fe is bugging you about violating group values and you're (understandably) blaming them for it. But in this case it isn't their fault, you're the one with the issue by letting it get to you.

Actually, I'm very susceptible to guilt. There's a big difference, too, between not caring about someone and being incapable, despite your best efforts, of giving them what they need. I can only be so mindful of these things.

What group values would they, or me, (unclear whose group values they are) even be violating? I can't fathom myself being offended at a comment like that. If my girlfriend made some joke like that, I can state, with certainty, that I wouldn't be offended. Yes... even if it was about a female "sucking off" a male.

 

[PeaceBaby]

And yet, they seem to get offended by things that aren't even insults, like the fact that I used the phrase "Aragorn is boning an elf." (That's what he was doing! ) I think the thing is that Fi cares a lot about the connotation of a word, while Ti cares a lot about the denotation of the word. I don't think very much about connotations at all, which I think is what causes a lot of my problems with Fi-doms.

What I don't understand is taking things seriously that don't warrant being taken seriously. Like the sex lives of LOTR characters. Are you really telling me that Fi-doms don't have a tendency to do this? Maybe to you, it seems like something that should be taken seriously, but to me, it doesn't.

Can you clarify what Fi-doms have a tendency to do? Not sure what you mean.

Meanwhile, everyone knows that they were virgins until they married. Duh.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Can you clarify what Fi-doms have a tendency to do? Not sure what you mean.

Meanwhile, everyone knows that they were virgins until they married. Duh.

From my POV, they take offense and object to a lot of little things. The objection is really part of some bigger issue, either with myself, or with me, but the big issue is almost always avoided in favor of the small issues. It seems as though Fi is in touch with their emotions in the sense that they are in touch with their immediate reaction to things, but does not seem to be good at putting it all together and seeing what the real issue is. So even if I figure out on my own, they'll deny it, without even providing an alternative explanation. They'll fit that pattern perfectly.

Also, there's this:

Guide to Jungian Function Axes

Hence the criticisms I will surely receive that I am speaking not of patterns associated with introverted feeling (even though this even happens with at least one of the Extraverted Thinkers here), but of individuals. The observations are only true for the specific individuals I am speaking of, and cannot, ever, under any circumstance, be applied to to other Fi types to form some kind of conclusion.

If it had nothing to do with introverted feeling, and just me being bad at interacting with people, it would come up with everyone I am close to. But it doesn't. It only happens with Introverted Feeling types, primarily people who have that function as a dominant.

Moreover, my attempts at reconciliation are sign as "fake", I suspect. I should have said the right thing from the beginning. Because, Fi is simply incapable of saying things that might offend me, obviously, and never makes those kinds of mistakes.

 

[brainheart]

ESFJ females, in particular, can feel misunderstood in a culture predominated by FP and TJ females.

Ha ha, yeah right. I've always been seen as an odd female due to being a Fi-dom. Fe females are everywhere.

My daughter is a Fe dom and so is my sis and we've always gotten along and I think they're awesome.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yes, everyone thinks ESFPs are weirdos. Obviously. Maybe the ESFP feels that way, but that doesn't mean that everyone thinks that.

In what way are FP females seen as less feminine?

 

[Starry]

Ha ha, yeah right. I've always been seen as an odd female due to being a Fi-dom. Fe females are everywhere.

My daughter is a Fe dom and so is my sis and we've always gotten along and I think they're awesome.

OMG who originally wrote the statement you quoted brainheart? I need to see who's sense of reality I must now question... 'misunderstood in a world of FP & TJ women' ha.

When you're running with the xFSJ females...you're running with the big-dogs... (which is precisely why I can't run with them and why I never look them directly in the eyes in hopes they don't completely destroy the already 'suspect' reputation I have. And I let them eat first...and make sure to get them greeting cards on the days I should. There's something very important having to do with greeting cards...)

 

[brainheart]

OMG who originally wrote the statement you quoted brainheart? I need to see who's sense of reality I must now question... 'misunderstood in a world of FP & TJ women' ha.

In the OP.

...There's something very important having to do with greeting cards...)

yeah, they love the greeting cards and the holidays. And I am a big big flake about these things.

In what way are FP females seen as less feminine?

[MENTION=4660]msg_v2[/MENTION] Well I can only speak for myself but I'm indifferent to greeting cards and holidays. I only want to be in a relationship with a person who sees me as an equal. I don't want to be taken care of or treated like a lady. I have never seen myself as a woman or a girl but as a human. The concept 'Ladies Night Out' makes me break out in hives. I don't cry in front of other people and I roll my eyes at my husband all the time for his overly demonstrative stating of feelings.

Read Jung's description of Fi. It may be an eye opener.