Fi is awkward too!

[Standuble]

Nah I don't think you're understanding what he means.

Yes I do. What he is talking about isn't function related so much. In any case I think he should have just spoken the truth without attempting the etiquette route. I'm sure she would have handled it (especially if she knew he was an INTP.) I would have thought she already knew and thought "might as well confirm it."

 

[Lady_X]

Yes I do. What he is talking about isn't function related so much. In any case I think he should have just spoken the truth without attempting the etiquette route. I'm sure she would have handled it (especially if she knew he was an INTP.) I would have thought she already knew and thought "might as well confirm it."

she was the one who wanted the blunt discussion. it was he who felt awkward with it.

but yes...it is because fi is like that...and does make people feel awkward sometimes.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Another thing that's relevant is that I rewatched Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind yesterday, which I've been meaning to do for ages and finally put it of.

And yeah, something that seems to come up in the movie is these kinds of Fi/Fe conflicts. Joel is definitely a Si-heavy INTP in that movie (he has Fe, not Fi.... "I hate the idea of being a couple people think that about.", for anyone who might think he's an ISTJ) and Clementine is an ENFP, I think. And Joel actually kind of acts like a jerk a lot in this, in a sort of casual unaware INTP way.

Clementine is actually really awkward in that scene on the train, and nervous as hell if you look closely.

 

[skylights]

Actually I totally see Fe and Fi out of this. Fi absorbs and observes and engages feeling. It's partially the feelings that the other person puts out and partially the feelings that the Fi user focuses on. Fi brings it up because Fi just "feels" it in the air and assumes it's obvious to the other person, too. Fe, looking instead at the exchange of feeling, says why are you pushing this feeling on me? to Fi. Fe wonders how that exchange is supposed to make things better. Fi feels like if both people are open and exposed then there shouldn't be any hurt, because there's no malintent. Of course that doesn't always bear out, but Fi has never been particularly realistic.

 

[Lady_X]

To that I say what is realistic? Who has the authority to define that? Ha

 

[skylights]

But you know what I mean? Like I feel like Fi users have a really good idea of their intentions but then it comes out of our mouths and falls apart because it just doesn't translate the way it felt inside.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Mostly, I'm posting this because I feel like I understand INFPs a lot better.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

But you know what I mean? Like I feel like Fi users have a really good idea of their intentions but then it comes out of our mouths and falls apart because it just doesn't translate the way it felt inside.

Do you think that what you say get misinterpreted that a lot, or that people don't react the way you'd expect?

I feel like with this revelation, I understand NFPs a lot better, and I know a feel mildly guilty about all the complaining I've been doing about them here. Or maybe it's guilt about not wanting to date that person. I don't know. Just that I feel guilty, but also enlightened.

 

[Thursday]

ha you do do you? it would help if there were music on the streets also...that would make everything make more sense.

There's always music in the streets. Life's rhythm and pulse is palpable, you just have to surrender to it. Whether its pathos one day, or euphoria the next, the song is different but the music is never not there. Or if you've got a song in your head, that helps too

 

[wolfy]

It was just so blunt, so sincere, well-intentioned, but it felt really invasive, especially for a first date. Why do I have responsibility for the feelings you absorb from me? We aren't even seeing each other! After the fact, I was able to text her and reassure that it wasn't about the topics she was bringing up or her convictions or passions. It's more with the fact that I'm really a much more cynical person than I seem at first, and that we actually didn't seem very compatible.

But it did kind of bug me that I had to do that in the first place. It was a first date. Being invited to talk about stuff like this, I never feel like it resolves anything, anyway. Usually I just end up feeling more isolated and lonely.

The point is, Fi doms have a blunt sincerity to them that is admirable, but I don't think it's compatible with my needs.

I can relate to the need to know. There is a funny need to confirm that the feelings you sense are real or not. To me it does resolve something. It resolves where everyone stands.

 

[JocktheMotie]

If this is going to become a Fe v. Fi thing, I'd say the important "Fe factor" here is that Fe is inferior and as such, is causing stress. A Fe user more adept than us ITP souls would be far more likely to handle an emitted emotion "appropriately" and to be honest, good for your date for calling you out on your inauthenticity. Ti and Fi are not all that different from a process standpoint, and if Ti is adept at sniffing out inconsistency in systems and thinking then Fi can be equally such at detecting inconsistency in feeling and its expression.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "laying it all out on the table" approach as being incompatible with your needs. ITPs complain endlessly about the inauthenticity of culture and everyday interaction, and here you are, perpetuating that inauthenticity by being accomodating. It may be "polite" in some sense, and it's easy to lie to yourself and say you're "saving them from unpleasantness" but you're really just saving yourself from the unpleasantness of dealing with an emotional situation. I've done the same thing before, it sucks for everybody involved, and we're really not fooling anybody. I've found that when I think I'm being stealthy in hiding my emotional disposition, to F users I might as well be a collapsing star jettisoning my atmosphere of stress. When things are "put out there," the immediate reaction is certainly ohshitohshitohshit, as we tend to think the tools we have for dealing with such a situation are shit, but it addresses the problem immediately and I think you'll ultimately feel better. And if all blows up in your face, well, it's better to be a blunt and honest asshole than a shady, inauthentic one.

TLDR take your medicine, it tastes bad but it's good for you.

 

[PeaceBaby]

If this is going to become a Fe v. Fi thing, I'd say the important "Fe factor" here is that Fe is inferior and as such, is causing stress. A Fe user more adept than us ITP souls would be far more likely to handle an emitted emotion "appropriately" and to be honest, good for your date for calling you out on your inauthenticity. Ti and Fi are not all that different from a process standpoint, and if Ti is adept at sniffing out inconsistency in systems and thinking then Fi can be equally such at detecting inconsistency in feeling and its expression.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the "laying it all out on the table" approach as being incompatible with your needs. ITPs complain endlessly about the inauthenticity of culture and everyday interaction, and here you are, perpetuating that inauthenticity by being accomodating. It may be "polite" in some sense, and it's easy to lie to yourself and say you're "saving them from unpleasantness" but you're really just saving yourself from the unpleasantness of dealing with an emotional situation. I've done the same thing before, it sucks for everybody involved, and we're really not fooling anybody. I've found that when I think I'm being stealthy in hiding my emotional disposition, to F users I might as well be a collapsing star jettisoning my atmosphere of stress. When things are "put out there," the immediate reaction is certainly ohshitohshitohshit, as we tend to think the tools we have for dealing with such a situation are shit, but it addresses the problem immediately and I think you'll ultimately feel better. And if all blows up in your face, well, it's better to be a blunt and honest asshole than a shady, inauthentic one.

TLDR take your medicine, it tastes bad but it's good for you.

Fantastic response illuminating the double standard.

I think it would have taken an INFP person a whole lot of courage to ask you "What's wrong?" in a first-date situation - the signals you were sending out must have been as obvious as a trumpet blaring in the streets. You're not saving anyone any embarrassment by pretending all is well when it isn't. If anything, she saved you embarrassment by not walking out on you despite your very uninterested signals. Why should she have to sit there with you, all obviously disconnected, and everyone around the pair of you sensing it too ... can you see how embarrassing that is for her too, to have to pretend all is well?

Not trying to lay guilt over you, and it seems you are getting closer to being able to put yourself in the shoes of the other, so I am pressing you to try to see it from her pov. It sounds like you might as well have had a neon sign flashing over your head saying, "Just going through the motions 'til I can escape".

 

[PeaceBaby]

This really stressed me out. How can you tell someone who is being perfectly nice and actually showing concern for you that you're just not interested? I couldn't do it, the words just wouldn't come out. Stress, guilt, anxiety, loneliness just kicked in like crazy right then and there.

You just say it like that. "You are intelligent and lovely and I appreciate the concern you have right now for me, but I think our date is leaning me towards us being friends rather than a couple. I'd like to enjoy the rest of our date as friends, but I understand if you'd like to cut it short."

Then you be a gentleman, drive her home or whatever, and thank her for her time to get to know you a little better.

You could even apologize for not helping the evening go smoother ...

Why do I have responsibility for the feelings you absorb from me?

Oh boy. What a question!

 

[Glycerine]

Actually I totally see Fe and Fi out of this. Fi absorbs and observes and engages feeling. It's partially the feelings that the other person puts out and partially the feelings that the Fi user focuses on. Fi brings it up because Fi just "feels" it in the air and assumes it's obvious to the other person, too. Fe, looking instead at the exchange of feeling, says why are you pushing this feeling on me? to Fi. Fe wonders how that exchange is supposed to make things better. Fi feels like if both people are open and exposed then there shouldn't be any hurt, because there's no malintent. Of course that doesn't always bear out, but Fi has never been particularly realistic.

I don't think it's really that type specific. I have had other Fe doms pressure me to open up to them because they craved the connection in some way (and not always in the name of social pragmatism). I was talking to an ENFJ friend of mine and the conversation went like this.

Him: (talking about universal values and what people truly love and want out of life for like 40 minutes)
Me: (zoning out for 2 minutes after that)
Him: What are you thinking about?
Me: I don't know.
Him: You do know... You just don't want to tell me.
Him: (launches into a 20 minute discussion about the importance of expressing yourself).
Him: Do you know the value if your own thoughts?... What do you love?

 

[skylights]

I don't think it's really that type specific. I have had other Fe doms pressure me to open up to them because they craved the connection in some way (and not always in the name of social pragmatism). I was talking to an ENFJ friend of mine and the conversation went like this.

Him: (talking about universal values and what people truly love and want out of life for like 40 minutes)
Me: (zoning out for 2 minutes after that)
Him: What are you thinking about?
Me: I don't know.
Him: You do know... You just don't want to tell me.
Him: (launches into a 20 minute discussion about the importance of expressing yourself).
Him: Do you know the value if your own thoughts?... What do you love?

That's true. I have a coworker who's like that. Is this guy a preacher? Because this ENF at my work... man... that sounds exactly like him. I can't decide if he's ENFP or ENFJ, though. He seems more Fe/Ni but he is such a space cadet.

He too goes on monologues about what people should do. And he always is trying to get everyone involved. But sometimes I don't want to when I know it's going to be subject to his scrutiny...

Admittedly I am someone who tends to open up, so I don't often feel that. It's a good point. Sharing isn't only a Fe/Fi thing.

But sometimes I think that "burden of the other person's emotions" can be Fe related. My ISFJ has voiced it with me, too, like why are you putting all of this on me? I just share it because I want to sort through it with the added benefit of his perspective and comfort. But he feels like if I'm sharing it with him, that he has a desire to do something about it, actively. I think that is more Fe-like, isn't it? Maybe I am wrong!

 

[skylights]

You just say it like that. "You are intelligent and lovely and I appreciate the concern you have right now for me, but I think our date is leaning me towards us being friends rather than a couple. I'd like to enjoy the rest of our date as friends, but I understand if you'd like to cut it short."

Then you be a gentleman, drive her home or whatever, and thank her for her time to get to know you a little better.

You could even apologize for not helping the evening go smoother ...

That is what I would think would be the "ideal" response, too. You say that you think (these qualities) of hers are lovely, and you are so sorry that you took her out and now aren't feeling like it's going to work, but you've really appreciated her time and getting to meet her, and maybe buy her a coffee and just talk about life as friends or just drive her home if she'd rather.

I mean, that's what I'd rather, too. Yeah it's going to sting a little, but way better to end it now and make the most of it than have to endure it and then leave her hanging later on. Fi would more pissed off to know you're pretending than to just have you come clean.

 

[Glycerine]

Haha, yeah I see what you mean. My friend makes it seem like he's leading me down some sort of road where the final destination is his perspective/vision (in a way only NJs can). At first, he seemed kind of ENFP but the way he formulated his thoughts all related back to a couple major themes (like an integrative approach as opposed to expansive).

 

[skylights]

Haha, yeah I see what you mean. My friend makes it seem like he's leading me down some sort of road where the final destination is his perspective/vision (in a way only NJs can). At first, he seemed kind of ENFP but the way he formulated his thoughts all related back to a couple major themes (like an integrative approach as opposed to expansive).

Yeah, exactly, that's how this guy is too. It all fits into his vision of how the world should be. It's funny because we have other NFJs at work who clearly disagree with that vision (for example, that everyone is meant to be in a relationship and will be better off that way).

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You just say it like that. "You are intelligent and lovely and I appreciate the concern you have right now for me, but I think our date is leaning me towards us being friends rather than a couple. I'd like to enjoy the rest of our date as friends, but I understand if you'd like to cut it short."

I don't believe that... Why would I say that? Who does that make feel better? It doesn't make me feel better, and it probably doesn't make her feel better. uggh. The thought of those words coming out of my mouth disgusts me. Terrible advice. This thread is kind of disgusting me right now. What kind of a moron does that stuff even work on?

(I'm open with my feelings here. Are either of us really any better off because I expressed them? Incidentally, this entire issue was why I didn't think this person was relationship material. )

 

[Lady_X]

I don't believe that... Why would I say that? Who does that make feel better? It doesn't make me feel better, and it probably doesn't make her feel better. uggh. The thought of those words coming out of my mouth disgusts me. Terrible advice. This thread is kind of disgusting me right now. What kind of a moron does that stuff even work on?

(I'm open with my feelings here. Are either of us really any better off because I expressed them? Incidentally, this entire issue was why I didn't think this person was relationship material. )

What!? Omg this response cracks me up!