What type of communication or phrasing offends you as a fe/fi user?

[five sounds]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], I just wanna point out how awesome this is of you. You're being so thorough and considerate, and doing a heck of a job keeping up with these posts! Totally admiring that right now.

 

[Fidelia]

i'll come back to some of the other points in a min but i'll just say i agree with this. my infp bf can be moody and man does it bug me...i took us out to a really nice dinner one night....i think it was on new years...i wanted to get all dressed up etc but he didn't feel like dressing up and he was moody almost the whole time because it was right after work and he hadn't had any down time. so i had this whole nice thing planned out and h essentially ruined it...ughh yeah bugs me too

it's funny actually because us fi users annoy each other with some of the same fi stuff you mention. sometimes i need to talk now! and he doesn't...sometimes it's reversed

also...one of our main relationship issues is communication. and it's a fi/fi thing!

Really? I didn't realize that! I just assumed that if you have more similar functions that it would make it easy. However, I think Fi is very individual too - less commonalities that Fe and Fe maybe?

 

[Ene]

I have to deal with offense mostly when people talk down to me, devalue my intelligence or dismiss my input as if it has no value. I don't like to be patronized, belittled or demeaned and I don't like to see others have that done to them.

So, basically, I don't like to be disrespected and I don't like to see others disrespected.

 

[Fidelia]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], I just wanna point out how awesome this is of you. You're being so thorough and considerate, and doing a heck of a job keeping up with these posts! Totally admiring that right now.

Aw thanks, Lady! I'm only a little concerned that people might think that I'm speaking for all Fe users, which of course I am not. Just noticing a few trends that have come out of the Fe/Fi threads of the past as well as some of my own observations. Anyone else is welcome to jump in at any time.

 

[RDF]

I agree overall. Neither the Fe or the Fi expression is considerate, if indulged in thoroughly.

I have noticed in myself that I am much more open to hearing the other person out if they've been willing to let me run out of steam before offering the advice. Venting is a distress signal and trying to get work done when someone is in the middle of distress usually makes for bad results. Not that that means I will indiscriminately vent to people, but in close relationships, it avoids misunderstandings if all parties involved get that figured out.

No problem with that. I’ll give someone every opportunity to have their say to their satisfaction. I just don’t want to be tuned out or shushed when it’s my turn to speak.

I'm wondering what the Fi equivalent of letting a person have a little bit of an emotional release without indulging emotionally polluting the whole house would look like.

These days, I just handle communications according to universal rules for boundaries.

That is, I’ve been in charge of lots of people in the past, and over time I’ve found it too difficult to crawl up in each one of their heads and figure out what’s going on or anticipate what their various pet peeves might be.

So I just give them a fair hearing and then try to communicate back. If they’re moody or react negatively, that’s fine. I respect their right to their emotions, and I don’t hold it against them if communications didn’t work at that moment. We can always try again later.

As I get older, I just find it easier to stick to the big concepts of equity, mutual respect, and observation of personal boundaries. I don’t worry about sussing out their personality type to figure out how I might deal with their personal idiosyncrasies.

By the way, I’ve largely learned this mode of interacting with people from Fe-users. Fe-users have the best sense of things like boundaries and respect. Fi-users are often too self-centered to figure that stuff out on their own.

 

[RDF]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], I just wanna point out how awesome this is of you. You're being so thorough and considerate, and doing a heck of a job keeping up with these posts! Totally admiring that right now.

Yeah, you're doing great! I recognize that I and a couple others are throwing you some curve balls, and you're handling them well.

 

[Fidelia]

I have to deal with offense mostly when people talk down to me, devalue my intelligence or dismiss my input as if it has no value. I don't like to be patronized, belittled or demeaned and I don't like to see others have that done to them.

So, basically, I don't like to be disrespected and I don't like to see others disrespected.

I think that is a universal experience! Do you think your reaction to it though would differ from the way a Fi person would react and if so how? Also, do you notice any trends in what it would look like to receive those things from a Fi quarter as opposed to a Fe quarter?

One of the things that I have found interesting throughout all these threads has been figuring out what stuff is just plain rude (acknowledged by both sides), and what stuff I had misinterpreted because it would have a different meaning if I did it.

 

[Fidelia]

No problem with that. I’ll give someone every opportunity to have their say to their satisfaction. I just don’t want to be tuned out or shushed when it’s my turn to speak.



These days, I just handle these things with boundaries.

That is, I’ve been in charge of lots of people in the past, and over time I’ve found it too difficult to crawl up in each one of their heads and figure out what’s going on or anticipate what their various pet peeves might be.

So I just give them a fair hearing and then try to communicate back. If they’re moody and react negatively, that’s fine. I respect their right to their emotions, and I don’t hold it against them if communications didn’t work at that moment. We can always try again later.

As I get older, I just find it easier to stick to the big concepts of equity, mutual respect, and observation of personal boundaries. I don’t worry about sussing out their personality type to figure out how I might deal with their personal idiosyncrasies.

By the way, I’ve largely learned this mode of interacting with people from Fe-users. Fe-users have the best sense of things like boundaries and respect. Fi-users are often too self-centered to figure that stuff out on their own.

I am interested in this, especially since we have a number of people on TypeC now who are well into their careers, in managerial positions, or retired. I think your approach seems reasonable. As I've gotten older, I've gotten less likely to make hard and fast judgements on what I am seeing, but also am more aware that sometimes it might be something unrelated to me or the situation that's making the person act as they are. I am more okay with accepting that I can't make it all work and like you say, if it didn't work right now, we can always try again later (although old habits die hard!). Regarding the last sentence - I know a number of Fi users who are very good with things like boundaries and respect, you included. How do you think that you figured that stuff out if it was not intuitive on your own? (Is that too personal to ask?)

 

[RDF]

[...] Regarding the last sentence - I know a number of Fi users who are very good with things like boundaries and respect, you included. How do you think that you figured that stuff out if it was not intuitive on your own? (Is that too personal to ask?)

I learned Te in the military: Organization, jurisdictions, chains of command, delegation, and all that other stuff. From there, it's not a big leap to Fe. As I see it, Fe is just a kinder, gentler version of Te; you just slow down and dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

Also, my work experience after the military was kind of in an international diplomatic environment (one of the big international organizations in Washington, D.C.). Fe-users excelled in that environment, and I learned a lot by watching them.

 

[Lady_X]

Yeah, Lady X, what you're describing is what would feel to me like being heard. Mirroring back in other words is great as long as it is not in therapist speak (It sounds to me like you are saying blah blah blah, etc). It's also fine to relate your own experiences, as long as you bring it back around to the other person and their problem.

The only change I'd make to that is that it is less for the purpose of helping the person decide what to do or for guiding them, and more so that you either
1) understand the situation/them and therefore become closer
2) help them clear away the emotional trees that have blown down over the road so they can solve the problem at hand themselves
3) allow them to talk so they can clarify for themselves what pieces of information are most important and get a more clearly articulated view of the situation for themselves
4) serve as a quick check to see whether their reaction is reasonable or not.

If your reaction and theirs are very different, they will go back and consider why that is and if their assessment is accurate or not. It's like taking a quick check in the mirror before you go out to make sure that you look the way you think you look in your mind's eye.

Is that of any help?

As far as the solving things in the moment part - I've found, especially with some ENFPs (which I like, by the way), that sometimes when they are most upset, they would prefer a little verbal plate throwing and raging (some of which is meant, and some of which is not really meant) and will metaphorically follow you into the next room while you are trying to cool off and get some mental distance from the situation so that you will not hurl verbal plates and have time to consider all points of view. After they are done throwing plates, then they can get on with loving you again, regardless of everything that just happened.

For me, I take longer to heat up and longer to cool down. If I am agitated, I'd rather be agitated privately and remove myself enough that I can feel more objective again. I find I get increasingly blunt and direct the closer someone starts following me when I am feeling like that.

This may be based on a very small sample selection, but overall, I think that Fi is more in the moment and more intense. It can flare up quite suddenly if a value has been stepped on. Fi love also seems to me more concentrated and intense. Fe seems more diffuse and the functions that interact with it seem to require more time to moderate it for me. I think it is a little different with other varieties of Fe users though. For example, my ENFJ mother usually speaks in the moment and then regrets saying too much later. So maybe this is not a Fe/Fi thing at all. What do you think, Lady X?

okay yeah that's helpful. i think i do a good bit of that naturally (or at least it feels like i do) i think it's typically omg i personal statement/experience!! and then the other person says well no that's not exactly it...so then i ask more questions...get more info...refine the empathetic experience so i fully understand it...then talk it out with you in the same way i would in my head if i were processing my own situation. if that makes sense.

so...the reason we do that...is as i think you already know just so we know the experience intimately enough to offer insight.

but i think what i'm hearing is that it would be preferable for us to just do more active listening...in a sense slowly pulling you out of the water rather than jumping in with you. <--------and yes i relate to that. that is the fi bonding way (at least from my perspective) how do i know what the experience is for you or how to hep you through it if i can't feel it? yes i could ask you the temperature, the speed of the current, rather it makes you feel scared or exhilarated etc but so much quicker and accurate feeling to me if i was in there with you.

but....you just want a rope and for us to hypothesize on the experience? or maybe that's a sloppy assessment?

also...yes i think fi can be intense. it can feel like throwing plates. it can feel as the world as we know it just stopped and nothing matters more than resolving this issue right now because it is the foundation with which everything else rests upon. or maybe that's an sx flavored view? but...it is not always that way...it could be...deep hurt and sadness and an intense feeling of rejection to everything that i am...that of a mother rejecting her child. that's the levl of pain felt. and in that instance...there's not a thing anyone could do or say that's going to help with that. that processing has to be done alone. ime

also...the other part of that could be an e/i thing or etype thing...i guess so much of these things are flavored in that way.

 

[Fidelia]

I learned Te in the military: Organization, jurisdictions, chains of command, delegation, and all that other stuff. From there, it's not a big leap to Fe. As I see it, Fe is just a kinder, gentler version of Te; you just slow down and dot all the i's and cross all the t's.

Also, my work experience after the military was kind of in an international diplomatic environment (one of the big international organizations in Washington, D.C.). Fe-users excelled in that environment, and I learned a lot by watching them.

Did you chafe against it at first, or was it just a natural evolution as you got older and were dealing with people?

 

[RDF]

Did you chafe against it at first, or was it just a natural evolution as you got older and were dealing with people?

It was just "work mode," like wearing a suit. They paid me to be a good worker or a good boss or whatever, and Te/Fe was part of the formula.

It actually took me longer to translate that stuff into my personal life. I saw it as "work mode" and didn't necessarily use it outside of work. But eventually I saw some use for it in my private life as well.

 

[Fidelia]

okay yeah that's helpful. i think i do a good bit of that naturally (or at least it feels like i do) i think it's typically omg i personal statement/experience!! and then the other person says well no that's not exactly it...so then i ask more questions...get more info...refine the empathetic experience so i fully understand it...then talk it out with you in the same way i would in my head if i were processing my own situation. if that makes sense.

so...the reason we do that...is as i think you already know just so we know the experience intimately enough to offer insight.

but i think what i'm hearing is that it would be preferable for us to just do more active listening...in a sense slowly pulling you out of the water rather than jumping in with you. <--------and yes i relate to that. that is the fi bonding way (at least from my perspective) how do i know what the experience is for you or how to hep you through it if i can't feel it? yes i could ask you the temperature, the speed of the current, rather it makes you feel scared or exhilarated etc but so much quicker and accurate feeling to me if i was in there with you.

but....you just want a rope and for us to hypothesize on the experience? or maybe that's a sloppy assessment?

also...yes i think fi can be intense. it can feel like throwing plates. it can feel as the world as we know it just stopped and nothing matters more than resolving this issue right now because it is the foundation with which everything else rests upon. or maybe that's an sx flavored view? but...it is not always that way...it could be...deep hurt and sadness and an intense feeling of rejection to everything that i am...that of a mother rejecting her child. that's the levl of pain felt. and in that instance...there's not a thing anyone could do or say that's going to help with that. that processing has to be done alone. ime

also...the other part of that could be an e/i thing or etype thing...i guess so much of these things are flavored in that way.

Hmm...

I think it's not so much that the Fe user needs you to simulate the experience, because they don't need you to solve it. It's more like, "Hey, can you get that rope over there, because you're free right now and I'm stuck in the water! Okay, now tie it around that tree and throw it over here". You don't need to know anything about water temperature or current because you're needed to do something else!

You are in a unique position where you are not emotionally embroiled in the situation, nor bogged down with a ton of details. Therefore, in articulating my problem to you, it helps me decide what is really at the heart of it all. You also may possess a set of experiences that allow me to access a new take on the situation or have a skillset that I don't have. You might also be capable of offering me enough sympathy that I run out of steam in my frustration and then can get on with noticing that there is an sandbar right near me in the river I can get to while I collect my head.

It's like being the assistant who sterilizes the equipment and hands the surgeon what they need. Your presence could be the difference between life or death for the patient, but the surgeon is still going to do the surgery.

I don't know - maybe that's too many analogies, but that's how it feels to me. Is that of any help?

Oh! Also, there would be no need to ask about the emotion being felt. That will either come out or else it is irrelevent. Kind of like talking to someone trapped in the upstairs of a burning house. Whether they are scared or whether they are full of adrenaline doesn't really matter right then. What matters is getting out alive. Fear is what prompts the person to get the heck out of the house, so it seems like a strange question to me because the answer seems obvious. I can only conclude though that Fi users process differently, because this response comes up over and over, so I've got to give it some credence as being a Fi thing.

 

[Fidelia]

It was just "work mode," like wearing a suit. They paid me to be a good worker or a good boss or whatever, and Te/Fe was part of the formula.

It actually took me longer to translate that stuff into my personal life. I saw it as "work mode" and didn't necessarily use it outside of work. But eventually I saw some use for it in my private life as well.

What was the catalyst to see the out of work application for it? (You don't have to be specific if you don't want to). I guess what I mean is, what made you consider using those skills outside of work? Was it gradual, or more of an abrupt realization?

 

[Lady_X]

Really? I didn't realize that! I just assumed that if you have more similar functions that it would make it easy. However, I think Fi is very individual too - less commonalities that Fe and Fe maybe?

fi/fi i've found often works great when we're discussing situations outside of our relationship. we can feel and empathize with the others perspective and it feels like being heard and validated. which is something we greatly need but when it's an issue between the two fi users...it takes much more work to step out of your experience and into theirs because you both feel defined by it...so removing it is painful.

it eventually happens tho and both experiences become understood in an intimate way. it's as tho we have to learn to reside in both places.

 

[RDF]

What was the catalyst to see the out of work application for it? (You don't have to be specific if you don't want to). I guess what I mean is, what made you consider using those skills outside of work? Was it gradual, or more of an abrupt realization?

In the workplace, it was okay to be a little "peremptory" (mix some Te in with the Fe), and the most important courtesies to be observed at work were "professional courtesies." Those things were easy to pick up in the work environment. But outside of work I was doing a lot of social events with Mensa, and I quickly realized that I could stand to learn more about "social courtesies" and that kind of thing. So I started reading a lot of books about socializing, small talk, etiquette, networking, etc. It was new to me, and it was kind of fun to finally fill in that gap in my knowledge and start working on those particular skills.

 

[Lady_X]

Hmm...

I think it's not so much that the Fe user needs you to simulate the experience, because they don't need you to solve it. It's more like, "Hey, can you get that rope over there, because you're free right now and I'm stuck in the water! Okay, now tie it around that tree and throw it over here". You don't need to know anything about water temperature or current because you're needed to do something else!

You are in a unique position where you are not emotionally embroiled in the situation, nor bogged down with a ton of details. Therefore, in articulating my problem to you, it helps me decide what is really at the heart of it all. You also may possess a set of experiences that allow me to access a new take on the situation or have a skillset that I don't have. You might also be capable of offering me enough sympathy that I run out of steam in my frustration and then can get on with noticing that there is an sandbar right near me in the river I can get to while I collect my head.

It's like being the assistant who sterilizes the equipment and hands the surgeon what they need. Your presence could be the difference between life or death for the patient, but the surgeon is still going to do the surgery.

I don't know - maybe that's too many analogies, but that's how it feels to me. Is that of any help?

it is and again reminded of the conversation we once had about fe being like te. yes i can think out loud with you....but the issue comes with learning to feel out loud with you...or think/feel through something with you without becoming attached to the emotional aspect. i don't know how to not feel it with you.

which is odd because isn't it said that fe users feel your feelings? i'm thinking that's not as accurate as what you mentioned in a previous post as feeling responsible for them. feeling blamed if they're negative or feel you need to manage them in some way for us.

can you help me sort that out?

 

[Lady_X]

Oh gosh another fe/fi thread. Fe users brace yourself because another fe is fake and shallow shit storm is heading this way. Good luck!

that's so not the point here mister! we're building a bridge n shit! and i'm not so sure i'm going to allow you on it with all that negative shiz!

 

[pinkgraffiti]

that's so not the point here mister! we're building a bridge n shit! and i'm not so sure i'm going to allow you on it with all that negative shiz!

i wonder if this being mostly an Fe-aux Fi-aux discussion has actually helped not raise the sensitivities. maybe Fe-dom Fi-dom would have been more complicated.

also, i totally agree with you on the Fi-Fi being useful for discussion of people outside the relationship and not so good when facing each other. i think i read on a socionics site that ENFP-INFP works pretty well as a team facing the same direction, but as soon as the direction becomes facing each other, then it starts a shitstorm.

 

[garbage]

"Offends"?

I dunno, being a total dickhole about what one communicates can be grating, but cooler heads prevail. "Like a river over stone," man. One should ideally learn to separate the dickholeness from the core message so that the latter isn't completely discarded--but the separation can still be murky.

The dickholeness itself provides clues. Some people simply have that style of delivery, some consciously protect a feeble and pithy core message inside a war machine, some actually believe that their messages are stronger than they are (e.g. out of arrogance), and some actually have legitimate, strong messages that wouldn't be heard if not for a strong delivery.


edit:

Dickholeness, to me, means being insulting, dominating a conversation (less of a shouting "match" than a shouting.. .. soliloquy..), and.. other things that I can't recall off the top of my head but that are in that general area.