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What type of communication or phrasing offends you as a fe/fi user?

Lady_X

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This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).

they're not completely unchangeable tho. that's where we have to jump inside your feeling space/experience and attempt to feel it as our own to see how we would feel. that's a lot of words to say empathize...sorry..but yeah...my starting point is my own experience but if a bridge needs to be built then i have to fully understand the other then i can make room for both understandings and formulate a compromise. ideally it would go both ways...we would both concern ourselves with completely understanding the other...and then act out of care for that feeling...not out of obligation...not because we're supposed to but because we felt it....and reached a place of true compassion.

but i've found that even without it being a mutual experience...my ne fi can't help but put myself there and feel compassion for their actions/reasoning even if it's so completely wrong.( i say wrong because i'm referencing a personal situation where the person truly is all screwed up in the head. ) so in that instance it's not even labeling the behavior as okay...just simply...making sense of it...through fi...i suppose...in a way you do with ti.

did i get off track? i feel like i've missed my original point. please tell me if i didn't answer the actual question.

oh that's another point...i think you mentioned somewhere where you feel like we don't always answer all of the questions or something. i'm gonna just blame that one on ne.
 

Lady_X

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This is Ni flavoured Fe with me as a so dom that I'm relating. Can't speak for the other varieties. In my case anyway, I think it's because to me, nothing is neutral, not even silence or inaction. Therefore, depending on what I believe the motivation behind the action is, I will respond differently. For example, the other day my niece and I were travelling in the car. She was in a good mood and had asked if she could come along with me while I did some errands. On the way home, she was silent after a bit. I started telling her about something that happened the day before and there was no response at all. I looked out the window and she wasn't abstracted in thought. I said, "Hello?" and she said, "Oh yeah, I heard you." To me, I was frustrated because already I was doing her a favour (she had errands to do and didn't want to spend her own gas), there was no apparent reason for not responding, she had heard me, and to me it was obvious that I was not just communicating information but that I was trying to open up conversation. She doesn't do that generally to other people, and I don't tend to chat endlessly, so when I do, I'd like to be paid the courtesy of acknowledgement, as she would to people who do less for her and who care less about her. In addition, she frequently will come up when I am in the middle of something on the computer and expects me to direct my attention to her, so it feels like it is non-reciprocal. If the person is not feeling up to talking, I will pick up on that by the degree of enthusiasm in their response and act accordingly. I had to choke down momentary annoyance.

Now, I realize to Fi sensibilities, this seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. To my Ni/Fe/Ti sensibilities, I read more messages into it than that she was just not chatty.

Now as long as I have something to attribute the behaviour to that doesn't involve me, if the person brings up whatever is bothering them about me privately, or if I know that we are on good terms and all is well, then I am more likely to assume all is well unless informed otherwise. So, for me at least, it has to do with the subtext that I read into the inaction and the underlying carelessness for the relationship or less good motive that it represents to me.

Is that of any help to you? I think the answer would be much different for NTPs, who generally are very good at letting things run off their backs without it affecting them too much or ENFJs, who tend to be more likely to make a definitive judgement on the situation and not feel as vulnerable about it (although I do notice that my ISTJ dad's inaction bothers my ENFJ mother). I do not have enough Fe users of the SJ or SP persuasions to really comment on that.

niece is just impolite it would seem.

funny the difference in how we would respond.

you: had to choke down my momentary annoyance
me: hello rude!! i'm speaking to you! if you don't feel like talking you could at the very least say that instead of just not responding. you need to work on your manners girl!
 

Fidelia

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So the main way you would build a sense of compromise is to try to create the other person's feeling in yourself?

That's so interesting! Thank you for explaining it to me. For me, I think I would ask questions so that I could understand why it mattered so much to them. I wonder what it's like for other Fe and Fi users.

I couldn't understand before why several Fi users in another thread said something about their image of a person being like a mold they were making, but maybe this sheds some light on it. For me, it's like I have a whole pile of possibilities and by being able to rule out some of them, it's like lopping off the possibilities in a choose your own adventure book so that I can read the story line that is true for them. I'm still quite separate from them. It's just that I can get inside their head better if I know what pieces of information to assign the most weight to.
 

Fidelia

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niece is just impolite it would seem.

funny the difference in how we would respond.

you: had to choke down my momentary annoyance
me: hello rude!! i'm speaking to you! if you don't feel like talking you could at the very least say that instead of just not responding. you need to work on your manners girl!

I think I said, "It's not that I really think that not being able to see due to a sunset on a dusty gravel road was that exciting of a story. I said it because I was trying to start some conversation". She said, "Oh" and then didn't talk for the rest of the trip. I'm learning that she tends to do that when there are other worries on her mind. On the other hand, she also was not raised in a family environment where there was a lot of normal conversation or expectation of it, so I think some of it is that she is a few years behind in that way in some respects (but inconsistently so, so it always takes me by surprise). However, it is an example of inaction being something that I as a Fe user would take personally. It's helpful to know what it looks like to Fi eyes.
 

Z Buck McFate

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This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).

Just to be clear, fid- are you talking specifically about immediate feelings in the throes of upset/conflict? [Because it's one thing to say feelings seem changeable, and another to specifically say they often shift as a person calms down. I'd actually sort of have a problem with the former myself- but I don't think that's what you're saying? I don't expect people to put up with my immediate emotional turmoil before I've had a chance to cool down and make sure it was really caused by what I think caused it- THAT is the kind of 'feeling' I see as changeable, and that's the kind that agitates me to have unloaded on me. That's a totally different animal than the kind of feeling that's still there after some reflection...]

[eta: sorry, I just saw potential for misunderstanding here and wanted to nip it in the bud, but just ignore if I'm missing something.]
 

Lady_X

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I think I said, "It's not that I really think that not being able to see due to a sunset on a dusty gravel road was that exciting of a story. I said it because I was trying to start some conversation". She said, "Oh" and then didn't talk for the rest of the trip. I'm learning that she tends to do that when there are other worries on her mind. On the other hand, she also was not raised in a family environment where there was a lot of normal conversation or expectation of it, so I think some of it is that she is a few years behind in that way in some respects (but inconsistently so, so it always takes me by surprise). However, it is an example of inaction being something that I as a Fe user would take personally. It's helpful to know what it looks like to Fi eyes.

well to add to that then...knowing the extra info. i might still say what i said if she didn't give any indication of being upset but if she responded with a flat sorry type of thing...i would probably think something was up and ask her if she's alright because she seems distant or lost in her head etc.

so...just an example how we don't always just see it one way...we might start from that internal place but then explore it and make room for their feeling space...if that clarifies anything idk
 

Lady_X

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So the main way you would build a sense of compromise is to try to create the other person's feeling in yourself?

That's so interesting! Thank you for explaining it to me. For me, I think I would ask questions so that I could understand why it mattered so much to them. I wonder what it's like for other Fe and Fi users.

I couldn't understand before why several Fi users in another thread said something about their image of a person being like a mold they were making, but maybe this sheds some light on it. For me, it's like I have a whole pile of possibilities and by being able to rule out some of them, it's like lopping off the possibilities in a choose your own adventure book so that I can read the story line that is true for them. I'm still quite separate from them. It's just that I can get inside their head better if I know what pieces of information to assign the most weight to.

yeah the internal processing is something like...

how dare they just say that to me!? how could they think i'd be someone who would even think such things much less do such things!? do they not understand who i am at all!? what have we been doing this whole time? has this been a completely one sided experience? i thought we shared this bond...this understanding etc etc

mad!! steam!! hurt!! rage!!

then...step outside of that and into the other person...thinking about how they grew up and the experiences they've had...their friends their family...the town...music...what they said this time and that time...and the inner struggles...the insecurities...the fear...etc etc...you feel it...you can feel the innocence. you can feel the intentions...you can feel the pain etc you can feel what they need..

nice relating back and forth conversations about what it feels like to the other...understanding...and compromise.

sorry for my whole choppy explanation. i hope it makes some kind of sense.
 

five sounds

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niece is just impolite it would seem.

funny the difference in how we would respond.

you: had to choke down my momentary annoyance
me: hello rude!! i'm speaking to you! if you don't feel like talking you could at the very least say that instead of just not responding. you need to work on your manners girl!

I would definitely interpret it as either poor manners or just that she didn't feel like talking. It used to kill me when people didn't respond and it still does when I feel communication is necessary, but I feel like being so close with so many introverts, I am quick to tell myself "shut up. Not everyone wants to talk as much as you do."
 

Coriolis

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yeah i'm not entirely sure about that myself... hypothetically Fi/Fe should be inclusive to TJs/TPs, but this seems more intended as an FP/FJ off continuity (with Ne/Ni shit getting muddled up.. some of it i am actually finding offensive).
I have been thinking of this while reading the thread. Yes, T-types use Fi or Fe, too, but it seems the whole dynamic of an interaction would change substantially when F is in tert/inf position as opposed to dom/aux. I don't mean by this that T's have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Quite the contrary: I would like to gain more insight into how things play out in these cases. I have quoted a few examples of situations or concerns that I think would be strongly affected by the stronger T preference.

- only want to engage in a conversation if it's going to have some kind of productive outcome
Yes, but driven by Te goal-orientedness, which is going to be much more impersonal than Fe, so socializing is not a priority

- tendency to need to DO something to feel that I am helping, rather than just letting the person tell me what they need.
Te demands this as well, at least as much as Fe, but I would rephrase it to say I need to know I am actually helping, not just feel that I am. Too easy to delude myself here.

- expecting others to read subtext in what I say
If you expect a T dom/aux to read subtext . . . well, good luck. On the other hand, Ni-dom can read plenty into most things, but probably not what is really there, especially when there is little Te substance to back it up, or what appears Te substance is contradictory.

- making what sounds like definite judgements on a situation or on people (these don't sound as definite to me as they do to a Fi hearer - they are more like a Te or Ne hypothesis that is put out there until something that fits better is found).
Ni-Te does this plenty, but with the force of "objectivity" behind them

- I still am not entirely sure what to do when a Fi user is in distress. Normally I would DO something to try to make someone feel better.
If you aren't, so much less am I (despite being an Fi-users myself)

An example of doing something you don't feel like for someone else's sake that you care about - Maybe you hate hospitals. You always have. Yet someone you really care about has fallen seriously ill and needs your presence there . . .
Te can easily override any F considerations here, or at least force Fi to take a serious back seat.

Oh yeah - it's not that I expect every conversation to have a reason for being. I also enjoy just meeting people and visiting. On the other hand, if someone brings up something negative especially, I want to know what their intent is for bringing it up (do they want me to change something I'm doing? Are they venting? Are they trying to figure out why things are as they are? Are they just getting it all in the open?). I want to be able to respond in a way that is useful for them. I think for Fi users, they tend to think less about the intended outcome and just see where the talking about it takes them.
Te-aux will not be content to think less about the outcome, especially when something negative is brought up. In a discussion just for fun, Fi might get more free rein, but Te won't be able to help trying to figure out where it is all going, even if the journey is enjoyable.

Fi users (I think) see emotion as a part of themselves and as something that can't really be molded or shaped by their own or other's will or by information/perspective. Therefore, suggesting that the Fi user change the outward appearance of their emotion is maybe a form of personal rejection, more than a Fe user would find it to be. In that sense, I think Fe users frequently step on Fi users feelings and invalidate them. Similarly, Fe users often attribute the expression of negative emotion as being selfish or willful because they believe it is very much in the other person's power to alter.
T will trump F here. Te (and perhaps also Ti), especially in introverts, will already be disinclined to outward displays of emotion. This is private territory, and likely besides the point as well.

Oh! Also, there would be no need to ask about the emotion being felt. That will either come out or else it is irrelevent. Kind of like talking to someone trapped in the upstairs of a burning house. Whether they are scared or whether they are full of adrenaline doesn't really matter right then. What matters is getting out alive. Fear is what prompts the person to get the heck out of the house, so it seems like a strange question to me because the answer seems obvious. I can only conclude though that Fi users process differently, because this response comes up over and over, so I've got to give it some credence as being a Fi thing.
T over F again: keep your eyes on the practical goal and work consistently toward it. Fi values might be the driver, but emotion is on hold, at least for the duration.

If I direct negative emotions outward, it usually is with some intended purpose in mind. At my worst, it's a way of making people feel how unhappy I am at the moment and respond in some way (sulking, slamming doors, silent treatment, non-communicativeness would all fall into this category). At my best, it means that I have exhausted every variable that I can affect on my own and am now turning to you for assistance in altering the situation. Either way, there is some intended action in mind. Ideally, that should be verbalized, but many Fe users think they are speaking a universal language and so assume the other person sees their need and is just choosing to do nothing about it.
Yes, please verbalize it. No, it is NOT a universal language. If you rely on me to interpret your "nonverbal cues", there is a good chance I will get it wrong, and neither of us will like the result.

IFor example, it doesn’t matter to me what “tier” an Fe-user puts me on. That’s in the mind of the other person. If the “tier placement” manifests itself in a little coolness, that’s fine too. We don’t have to like each other; that’s immaterial in a boundaried relationship. As long as we can still communicate more or less respectfully, i.e., hear each other’s voices and mirror each other (address the points that the other person raised).
Yes - the detached consideration of ideas, respectfully presented and discussed. How I feel doesn't matter. Either what you and I say makes sense, or it does not.
 
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Lady_X

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I have been thinking of this while reading the thread. Yes, T-types use Fi or Fe, too, but it seems the whole dynamic of an interaction would change substantially when F is in tert/inf position as opposed to dom/aux. I don't mean by this that T's have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Quite the contrary: I would like to gain more insight into how things play out in these cases. I have quoted a few examples of situations or concerns that I think would be strongly affected by the stronger T preference.

welll...are you going to tell us? wait...where are the quotes?

anyway...maybe you're mid edit. but i'd like to hear more t perspectives too.
 

Coriolis

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welll...are you going to tell us? wait...where are the quotes?

anyway...maybe you're mid edit. but i'd like to hear more t perspectives too.
The quotes are those from Fidelia and Fineline that I included in the post (are they not showing up for you?) I'm no expert on this and was hoping to learn from others here, but I can go back and edit my post to include how I see these.
 

Fidelia

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I can see 'em.

I'd like more T type presence in the thread, so any of you that are willing, please post away. It doesn't have to be based on my original post, but maybe if you want to do your own version of that kind of thing, then there is a jumping off point to start from?
 

Lady_X

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The quotes are those from Fidelia and Fineline that I included in the post (are they not showing up for you?) I'm no expert on this and was hoping to learn from others here, but I can go back and edit my post to include how I see these.

oh hey no i saw your quotes in your post but they weren't there when i quoted and responded to you..

i thought you quoted them and intended to explain how they would be different from your te perspective...but i just saw their quotes. did i miss something?
 

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This is something I'd like to better understand. I think that because of how I process feeling, I can't fathom how those feelings can feel as personal and unchangeable (I guess values based?) as they do. Can anyone explain more to me about what that feels like? My whole decision making processes are predicated on being able to to analyze and transform my feelings, so imagining a world where that wasn't how decisions are made is really hard for me (again, I realize I'm talking about Ni flavoured Fe).

This might be because I'm tert Fi, but I don't analyze my feelings. I have certain beliefs and convictions. I'm valuing what is important and what is not. I judge what is good and bad. I assess if I'm acting in accordance with my beliefs. I notice when people are acting phony. The way I look at it is I have my convictions/feelings and you have yours. It's really just that simple. I'll engage is a discussion about such things and it's not like they are completely unchangeable but they serve as a sort of core for me. As far as how that works or how these judgments are arrived at - I'm not sure.
 

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I would definitely interpret it as either poor manners or just that she didn't feel like talking. It used to kill me when people didn't respond and it still does when I feel communication is necessary, but I feel like being so close with so many introverts, I am quick to tell myself "shut up. Not everyone wants to talk as much as you do."
I am an introvert with introvert siblings who was raised by introverts. The story in the car and how it was received startled me: in my immediate family, the car more than anywhere is a place where no one minds if you keep to yourself, look out the window, and unwind from whatever you were doing outside. If a relative or someone from outside the family is there, the whole game changes because assuming all people chill the way you do is foolish.

In my dearest context, part of intimacy is not having to speak to be mutually (<-- key word!) comfortable in each other's presence, and there doesn't have to be a reason. I gravitate toward close relationships with people who feel the same, as this thread affirms I damn well should because again, all people do not. :D That said, when there is something wrong between us, my inner circles know that I will bring it to light as soon as it's appropriate, so no news is never bad news.

So, yeah. My take is very closely in line with the Fi themes in here: silence doesn't disturb us because when something is wrong, we trust each other to be verbally direct about it in the moment.
 
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So is it bad to warn people when you're in a bad mood and not fit company for man nor beast? I've always done that with my kids and even my husband. With the kids, I tell them that it's not their fault and that it's better if they leave me alone for awhile because I'm in a foul mood and might take it out on them even though they haven't done anything wrong and wouldn't deserve it. Usually I'm okay once I eat or the AC starts cooling things off or the crisis is over or I take a nap.
 

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So is it bad to warn people when you're in a bad mood and not fit company for man nor beast? I've always done that with my kids and even my husband. With the kids, I tell them that it's not their fault and that it's better if they leave me alone for awhile because I'm in a foul mood and might take it out on them even though they haven't done anything wrong and wouldn't deserve it. Usually I'm okay once I eat or the AC starts cooling things off or the crisis is over or I take a nap.
I for one really, really appreciate when someone shows they care by doing the bolded. :hug:
 

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So is it bad to warn people when you're in a bad mood and not fit company for man nor beast? I've always done that with my kids and even my husband. With the kids, I tell them that it's not their fault and that it's better if they leave me alone for awhile because I'm in a foul mood and might take it out on them even though they haven't done anything wrong and wouldn't deserve it. Usually I'm okay once I eat or the AC starts cooling things off or the crisis is over or I take a nap.

Yeah for sure. I think that's the best thing ever. I so appreciate that and try to teach the little people to do that. I do it too... I usually say that I'm feeling a bit grumpy at the moment because I didn't sleep well or something.

I usually try to make light of it or make fun of myself or the situation and it usually makes me laugh and I end up feeling better anyway. I totally appreciate when other people can do that for me too instead of take it personal or start getting all moody in return.
 
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I'd like to know too about where Ni/Ne starts bleeding into Fe. If something is offensive, I want to understand why, because that's where I think most of the learning happens.

this:
- I think this is more Ne/Ni stuff, but sometimes I get impatient with being offered "uncooked" ideas - stuff that has not been thought through to conclusion, because I mistake it for being offered a "cooked" but odd-tasting conclusion. I'm getting better at recognizing this sooner, but I still sometimes get kind of judgey and frustrated before I remember.

i'm trying to think of a good way to explain this so it won't go in a dozen of potential miscommunications. see in your mind you are seen NPs giving you unbaked goods, but in the NP experience you are putting forth and uncooked piece which clearly has a lot more room for cooking - and declaring that it's cooked. but that is still rather vague... the problem - and the point where it gets offensive - is when it gets into practice.

imagine you are reading the reports of the case of dexter morgan.. except you have 7 reporters investigating it, and each of them decided that the case close and that the information is cooked in a completely different point:

scenario A:
fact 1: dexter killed the person who murdered his wife...

scenario B:
fact 1: dexter killed the person who murdered his wife...
fact 2: dexter has invaded this person's life and threatened him before hand...

scenario C:
fact 1: dexter killed the person who murdered his wife...
fact 2: dexter was intending to kill him before his wife was killed...
fact 3: because dexter is a serial killer himself...

scenario D:
fact 1: dexter killed the person who murdered his wife...
fact 2: dexter was intending to kill him before his wife was killed...
fact 3: because dexter is a serial killer himself...
fact 4: but he only kills other serial killers...

scenario E:
fact 1: dexter killed the person who murdered his wife.
fact 2: dexter was intending to kill him before his wife was killed.
fact 3: because dexter is a serial killer himself...
fact 4: but he only kills other serial killers...
fact 5: for his survival, because people rarely avenge the loss of psychopaths...

scenario F:
fact 1: dexter killed the person who murdered his wife...
fact 2: dexter was intending to kill him before his wife was killed...
fact 3: because dexter is a serial killer himself...
fact 4: but he only kills other serial killers...
fact 5: for his survival, because people rarely avenge the loss of psychopaths...
fact 6: so that he can go on living 'n killing, since he can't control it otherwise...

scenario G:
fact 1: dexter killed the person who murdered his wife...
fact 2: dexter was intending to kill him before his wife was killed...
fact 3: because dexter is a serial killer himself...
fact 4: but he only kills other serial killers...
fact 5: for his survival, because people rarely avenge the loss of psychopaths...
fact 6: so that he can go on living 'n killing, since he can't control it otherwise...
fact 7: or so his father has raised him to believe since he was a young child...

in scenario A, dexter is someone who'd kill out of revenge
in scenario B dexter is somewhat creepy and suspicious but it isn't quite clear
in scenario C, an entire range of possible motives for dexter's wife's killer show up.
in scenario D we find out that dexter is actually a vigilante
in scenario E we find out that he's is strategic...
in scenario F, he isn't a vigilantly, but an addict & a psychopath
in scenario G dexter is neither - he is more a victim of circumstance, blind to his own freewill

this can go on and on, and yet choose any point within it at which the story is done and you've gathered all the relevant information, and you'd be missing the next bit which changes the picture altogether - the meaning one's actions, the nature of the agents, the relevant events, etc'.

ofcourse, dexter is going to end in a few weeks and will hopefully have a good sense of closure. RL on the other hand doesn't - have you ever heard of a scientific field closing up? "ok, we're done! we've learned everything there is to know about [insert area of study]! let's move on. next please!"... nope, because there is always more to be learned and it sometimes the smallest details can change the picture entirely. you do get to points of diminishing returns in regards to further investigation - not because you are ever out of potential game changing findings but simply because it gets harder to find them - which can justify putting less effort into finding more information, but what it can never justify is closing the lid from information others find to be relevant.

the point where it makes sense to do so isn't when you care about reality, it's when you care about the narrative - if the narrative where dexter is a vigilante, or alternatively the one where he is a psychopath, has some positive or negative value for you. and narratives are cool - they are comforting, they have a sense of clarity, and most importantly a meaning with an emotional appeal.... it's all quite understandable.. as a form of mental masturbation. and hey, everybody wanks. seriously, nuns too.. but also non metaphorically - humans are natural born storytellers, we all indulge in narratives.

but when you apply it to real life, pick a point of all conclusiveness and decide that it's all cooked, you are trying to force a narrative upon it and everyone within it - the real world is where other people happen to exist, and the fact is other people aren't going to be living through the same narrative, they are going through their own processes in life and experiencing stuff completely separate from your narrative, and quite likely contradicting it. in affect, by closing the barrel and saying you no thank you for information - your full - you are mentally killing off anyone it concerns. you have the answers you want in your head, as far as their real circumstances are concerned, you are effectively telling them you do no longer give a shit (probably in nicer words).

this to me comes in direct contrast with my Fe:
you can't care about others if you don't care about the reality in which everyone else exist. and i'm somewhat fine with that when it stands on it's own - but not when the narrative you try to force is about caring for others.
 
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