i also see the later as true because to a great deal my problems with FJs seem to be within that realm - when i observe that it is not reality which is being changed for the better but rather the appearance of reality from their perspective - the correct wording to reflect the required atmosphere, the focus, the points of emphasize, the selective process of what gets acknowledged and what gets left under the rug, handpicking which sources are credible and which shouldn't be acknowledged, choosing the "right" point of view in which things appear to reflect the desired conclusion... its a bit like political campaign, except instead of manipulating others, it's manipulating the self.
This paragraph is a thing of beauty.
And so is this:
You can usually tell how much a Fe user wants to do something by the degree of enthusiasm shown, based on the range of emotion you usually see from them. So for example, I might say, "Let's get together for coffee sometime soon". However, I may or may not follow up on initiating that depending on how the other person responds.
See, that's wonderful - here is a source of the catch-22, what the Fi person feels is the no-win scenario. Fe users generally show if they want to do something by degree of emotional enthusiasm. However, note the contradiction in the following paragraph:
I think this is why a Fi users non-expression/negative emotion/clear lack of enthusiasm for something important to the other person can anger Fe users after awhile, especially if they feel they have invested pretty heavily in the person and now need their interest/enthusiasm or support in some way.
And, there's the rub. Fi users don't deal in
emotional currency. Thus, can feel they are not afforded the benefit of genuine emotional choice in return. Fi doms generally don't use emotions as a means to an end, even if an Fe user interprets it so; a conflict-avoidant Fi user learns not to emote at all or fake it and just tell an Fe person what they want to hear because we can sense the 'right' answer and it saves us a lot of grief. Personally, I think it sucks for both of us that this is the perspective I have to adopt sometimes. (this para edited a bit for clarity.)
Fe users readily show their boundaries, and there's a lot to praise that for. Fi users just do not use emotional currency in the way Fe users do. I sure don't keep a tab. It is distasteful to me to even imagine having one! My son is ESFP e2 and he keeps that tab in a different way than Fe users do ... but still he keeps track. So, I am not passing a judgment on the right or wrong of that from either vantage point (Fe or Fi), just saying how it feels to me personally in relation to the topic of these types of "you rub my back, I'll rub yours" expenditures.
I TOTALLY get though how keeping track can be a real benefit and be useful. I've been a beneficiary of that. I just see so much abuse of the system it's hard to feel positive overall.
Here's a quick example: My ISFJ Mom has an abundance of tomatoes in her garden. She does not wish to see them go to waste and has mentioned to me a few times that she would like to get rid of them. I know she is strongly hinting at me to take them and do something with them, so I think about that and Monday tell her, "Sure, I have time this year, I could make chili sauce with them." So, I say, "Yes, I would be happy to take them" but me taking them is now part of our Fe dance on the matter. Yesterday we confirm our plans and because I am taking her gift I am now obligated in turn to do something in return, and my Mom is not shy about pressing this quickly. She then says, "That would be great, and since you are coming up, pick me up some Mason jars on the way. And oh, I don't have much salad, could you bring that too for our lunch?" Now, here's the rub - I am happy to do that, because I like my Mom and I understand how she is wired in this way and means nothing terrible by it, but the following bugs me about being pressed:
1.) This extra errand was not something I knew about in advance, so I will have to add 30 minutes overall to get that stuff and bring it to her place.
2.) She does not mention whether she will pay me back so I will have to gently suss out whether I can ask to be reimbursed the $10 for Mason jars or consider it part of the collateral of getting the 'free' tomatoes.
3.) She does not seem to take into account the expense or inconvenience factor for me coming to get the tomatoes in the first place. I live 45 minutes away and am mostly going to help her out. (I wonder if she even gets that I'm just being nice about it.) But in saying yes, I open myself to have to be ingratiated for something that is likely easier and cheaper for me to obtain at the farmer's market 2 min down the street. I've now spent over $10 in gas and $10 in Mason jars for my free tomatoes. And the way I am wired is that I see that as a write-off, I cannot fathom asking for her to comp me on that in return.
4.) She was going into town that morning anyway before I arrived! Why do I have to be the one to do the errands? I would never ask her to do something that I could readily do myself.
5.) We have to see what each gives and takes as being 'equal' for the concept of currency to work. I don't think the tomatoes were worth what I 'paid'. Since I don't keep tabs, it doesn't really bother me to come out on the bottom of that. But, I am aware of it.
Fe definitions of our interaction become the expectation and I for one, seeing and experiencing this difficult catch-22 regularly, can come to resent the one-sidedness, and all framed in a way that makes ME, the Fi person, look selfish if I say NO and assert my own boundary. Fe preferences rule and set our interactions. Do you see how one-sided that looks to the Fi POV?
I'm not sure about this, but I wonder if Fe users sort of see it as depositing and withdrawing from each other's emotional bank accounts. Even if the "money" is freely offered, it is understood that if it is accepted, the person accepting the "money" is obligating themselves to make a deposit of some sort in the future so that the relationship doesn't become one-sided and unfair. I don't think it is a matter of constantly tallying up totals, but when it does start seeming that one person is being capricious with the "funds" or is unwilling to help the other when they are in desperate need, even though they have been willing to accept stuff in the past, that's when the frustration starts to build.
I think it's a great analogy. It's exactly how this feels to me. That being said, you are social dominant and e1w2 - your 2wing will also influence the concept of the bank-account. Me being social dominant as well means I totally get the bank account concept but I resent the concept and question the value of the bank account (likely an Fi thing).
I don't think it is so much a matter of demanding a specific, but not verbalized expected response that puts the Fi user in a no win position. It's just that actions are usually seen more definitely as either a deposit or a withdrawal, rather than something neutral and so when the consideration for the other person doesn't appear to be reciprocated, Fe users are more likely to read a much deeper more negative message into it than was intended.
See, with my Mom, she sees herself as making the first deposit to give me the tomatoes when in reality I did by agreeing to go out of my way to get them in the middle of the week when we are usually not able to visit. That's what hurts sometimes. That part of it, the pre-part, where I take her wishes and feelings into account, set aside my own preference and try to do something that will make her happy, is invisible to her. (Mostly invisible at least. It hurts to imagine it may even be the expectation.) And I can be ok with that myself, I've accepted that this is the WAY it will be with her, unless I want to change it and that will have repercussions I don't want to deal with today. I just ... well, I can just wish to be appreciated sometimes for my part of things.
Anyway, my point in sharing that is to illustrate how from the Fi-dom position, and that of 50% of the planet who are not Fe users, Fe can seem oppressive and not nearly as charitable as it claims. I know so many Fe folks who are of good heart, it's not about them being good or caring or loving.
It's about a system that we are not wired into but whose rules we have to respect even though we are not set up to benefit from them as they benefit you. By pointing that out, it is my hope that you can have more compassion for situations when Fe users feel a lack of support. irl, I try to support Fe as much as I can to keep that realm happy because there's much good to be generated through it. Just, trick y sometimes.
Anyhoodle, I read those last couple of posts but sincerely, don't want to get into this topic in depth. Just pointing out another perspective.
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