Fi users and not apologizing

[Coriolis]

I think that - and this might be somewhat of a Ne thing - when someone expresses sympathy, I generally see it as a kind gesture plus an opportunity to cherry pick knowledge. I don't really know that I ever assume that it's actually useful beyond making me feel nice. Mostly I just like that others are demonstrating their compassion and awareness of me, which makes me feel supported and trusting. And of course for Fs, feelings are important. Feeling supported and trusting makes me more relaxed and empowered, and that better allows me to handle my problems, even though they still suck. I guess it's sort of a compartmentalization. What I get out of others' sympathy isn't tangible, but I don't look to them for that. I just like the feeling. But if the feeling doesn't do much for you... what you're saying makes sense.

I recognize sympathy as an attempt to be kind as well, but one that usually fails. I suppose this falls into the category of "it's the thought that counts", a sentiment I could never embrace. I actually do appreciate encounters that make me "feel nice". Unfortunately standard gestures of sympathy do not produce this kind of feeling. Instead they make me feel patronized, trivialized, irritated. They generally interrupt something I was in the middle of, if only my own thought processes trying to deal with the situation. I then have to expend energy to short-circuit them to minimize the effect, when I don't have energy to spare.

Which, between your and Salome's posts, brings me to the question, how best to offer something positive and useful to a T in distress? Just give them space unless you have something tangibly useful to contribute?

1. First of all, do not second-guess what I tell you. If I say I'm doing OK, or don't need help, or don't want company, or need to deal with/talk about something else right now, believe it.
3. If you want to help, state that plainly, then actually follow through. I will tell you what I need.
5. If practical matters are under control AND you know me well, I may be willing to discuss the matter on a more emotional level, but follow my lead. If I steer the conversation in a certain direction, or decide to terminate it, respect that. That helps me trust you and be more willing to revisit the matter later.
7. If you don't know me well, don't assume, and don't pry. You can still do (2), but otherwise give me my space, privacy, and as much normalcy as is possible in the situation.

 

[Lady_X]

^^ how very fi of you.

seriously...that just sounds like fi. i don't ever really want to talk about my problems with people either.

 

[Redbone]

1. First of all, do not second-guess what I tell you. If I say I'm doing OK, or don't need help, or don't want company, or need to deal with/talk about something else right now, believe it.
3. If you want to help, state that plainly, then actually follow through. I will tell you what I need.
5. If practical matters are under control AND you know me well, I may be willing to discuss the matter on a more emotional level, but follow my lead. If I steer the conversation in a certain direction, or decide to terminate it, respect that. That helps me trust you and be more willing to revisit the matter later.
7. If you don't know me well, don't assume, and don't pry. You can still do (2), but otherwise give me my space, privacy, and as much normalcy as is possible in the situation.

This. I want to carve this into a stone tablet.

 

[Tiltyred]

Ok, since a rainstorm woke me up at 4 in the morning and I have nothing better to do, I went back through this thread, and I what I recommend, DJ, is that you study on being a dom. Be a good one, don't be the asshole kind. I think this is all about power -- you don't want her to apologize to you so much as you want her to submit to you. She seems to be asking for you to put limits on her behaviors -- she seems to prod you to show power. I missed the whole thing about the phone and your description of her body language and her general spoiled brat demeanor. I get what you're saying about how she likes it when you act fierce. I'm probably going to catch a lot of hell for saying it, but that seems to me it could work out as a dom/sub relationship very nicely, but you need to understand what's going on and how to use the energy she's giving you. She wants you to come back and play games with her some more, and she's waiting for you to make the move -- which is respectful, or that's one way to see it. Now listen to what [MENTION=4515]wolfy[/MENTION] said, way up thread, because he gets what's going on, too, and then it's up to you to research how you play these games so they are mutually fulfilling. I think what you have there is a SAM. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

 

[small.wonder]

Well then. I'm on on a bus for 6 hours headed to a youth camp I'm volunteering at, so I read through (most of) this entire thread.

Everything in the universe that could possibly be said has been, but I thought I'd express my support for the talk to her faction. If she won't appoligize and still acts like a princess (argh) after you tell her you were hurt and why, then you can still shut her out. Just saying, attempting communication doesn't hurt you or the situation any more.

I am starting to see the "target on the back" thing you (@djarendee) mentioned in some other thread. I think it's true that because you begin forcefully, people naturally react likewise.

Don't forget that your very strong forward push in your communication may tend to elicit a strong push backwards, which is probably why a lot of responses have sounded judgmental.

Also, don't overlook the good! If I wrote a thread about a situational thing like this, I would never get this much feedback, or criticism. There are two sides to the coin, you just have to find a way to focus on the bright one. You draw people, but this much response will always include criticism.

You gotta roll w/ the punches to get to what's real. Just don't beat yourself up.

 

[Salomé]

Ok, see what you don't understand is that my introspective capacity is severely limited. And what you don't understand is that my ability to express my emotions is on the level of Senator Phil Davison (lol). And what you don't understand is that this is how my brain works. When my feelings are hurt, I don't realize it until half an hour has passed by.

...I have a series of best friends who understand me. As I'm not in a begging position to make friends anymore, I could care less what others think, and I door slam. The energy to maintain these friendships takes too much time and energy for me to deal with.

Since when does "door-slamming" involve starting a thread to ask "but do you think she likes me?"
"No really. I'm so confused. Does she like me or not? And should I forgive her if she's really hot?"
Lol. Soooo transparent. It's clear though that you don't understand yourself, women even less and Fi least of all.

Also, it doesn't take an E6 to recognise that your behaviour is unstable.

She seems to be asking for you to put limits on her behaviors -- she seems to prod you to show power.

So...talking of projection....
At what point did you think it was wise to tell a self-described "psychopath and rapist" that what this girl wants is to be shown who's boss? Huh.
Just curious.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't "doms" supposed to be able to control their emotional responses?
If you ask me, this girl gets a kick out of pushing the buttons of someone supremely easy to wind up.
But perhaps I'm projecting...

1. First of all, do not second-guess what I tell you. If I say I'm doing OK, or don't need help, or don't want company, or need to deal with/talk about something else right now, believe it.
3. If you want to help, state that plainly, then actually follow through. I will tell you what I need.
5. If practical matters are under control AND you know me well, I may be willing to discuss the matter on a more emotional level, but follow my lead. If I steer the conversation in a certain direction, or decide to terminate it, respect that. That helps me trust you and be more willing to revisit the matter later.
7. If you don't know me well, don't assume, and don't pry. You can still do (2), but otherwise give me my space, privacy, and as much normalcy as is possible in the situation.

This is a good list. To which I would add :
5. NO HUGGING!
Plskthx.

 

[Ribonuke]

I can see Fi-users as being unapologetic sometimes, depending on whether they see apology as compromising the meaning of their words. I've noticed that Fi-users tend to be more drawn to the dramatic or emotionally intense, whereas Fe-users tend to try and calm it down, make it less complicated and try to promote good will.

 

[citizen cane]

This is a good list. To which I would add :
5. NO HUGGING!
Plskthx.

A-fucking-men.




To both the list and this. Especially this.

 

[Frosty]

I dont type MBTI type myself but... I think a lot of this has to to with enneagram and health levels as well.

And tbh. In general, I really dont see a lot of people of ANY TYPE apologizing. It requires a level of vulnerability to do that that few people are willing to let themselves experience.

 

[Agent Washington]

... this just makes me wonder if i use fe

- - - Updated - - -

I dont type MBTI type myself but... I think a lot of this has to to with enneagram and health levels as well.

And tbh. In general, I really dont see a lot of people of ANY TYPE apologizing. It requires a level of vulnerability to do that that few people are willing to let themselves experience.

true.
people are so... weak..

 

[Hiraeth]

I do, and maybe a little too much even. I'm okay with being wrong though. Overall it's probably an ego thing and being an unhealthy Fi user. FPs need to use their Fi to deeply introspect on the possible reasons they could have done wrong. Relying too much on tertiary and especially inferior Te is a no-go. I could also see heavy e9 users apologizing a little more frequently in order to keep the peace.

 

[á´…eparted]

If I feel sufficiently justified for something, I will never appologize. Not a function related thing.

 

[Population: 1]

I’ll apologize if I feel it’s warranted. If I make an error and someone else pays for my negligence. If you’re being a legendary dick and I respond in kind, you’ll see the last starlight fade from the sky before receiving an apology.

 

[magpie]

I have no problem apologizing. It's harder for me to figure out whether I've actually done something wrong, because I am over-reliant on people's reactions to me, and can fall into using them as a meter of judgement more than being certain in my own intentions. It's a perception and reality related thing - it's easy for me to "fall out" of my own perception and into someone else's, and it's also easy for me to doubt myself. I don't like apologizing when I have nothing to apologize for, and I also don't like not apologizing when I do have something to apologize for. It's just hard to tell which is which.

 

[Jaguar]

So, after learning some socionics, I've learned that Fi often ASSUMES the internal state of other people, while Fe needs to hear it in an objective fashion.

Simultaneously, I notice that Fe users tend to appologize much more readily than Fi users.

You wouldn't know who was Fi or Fe to begin with; your typing skills sucked while you were here.

 

[Red Memories]

I don't think this is type related, but more ego related. Is the ISFP willing to admit he is wrong? Any type can dislike admitting they are wrong.

Speaking as an Fi user, I always find there is two coins in the story and I do things wrong as well, so consider if you make amends ALSO apologizing for what you did wrong. To say the least, ignoring someone for a month I do not think is good conflict resolution. This would actually make me angry at you.
Of course, I personally wouldn't have been that mad about this situation anyway. I often offer to throw things away for my friends anyway. This seems kind of ridiculous on both sides.

 

[LucieCat]

If I feel that I was in the right and/or did nothing wrong, I won't apologize. However, I do apologize quite a lot. Sometimes profusely. And over the simplest things. I'm not sure if it's completely tied to function. Though I had a friend who self-typed as ESFP once (though I doubt it in hindsight, never saw much Se.) who wouldn't apologize ever after treating so many people terribly. It was because she felt that she had been wronged, even if it was completely ridiculous (tripping and bumping into a person is not the same thing as sexual harassment and assault, thinking about how she treated my friend makes my blood boil to this day).

 

[Mesmeric_Moon]

It's more of a matter of emotional maturity IMO and by that I don't mean that emotionally mature people apologize more often, just that they are better at assessing whether or not they need to apologize and when they do it it's because they feel it's justified/you deserve it (they genuinely acknowledge your need for it) vs doing it just because they know that's what you want/need to hear, but don't really feel bad about it. ( whatever it is that they've done)
If there is an existing correlation afterall, then it seems the main reason behind it (if we exclude emotional immaturity ) would be a problem of miscommunication, (again this is assuming you're right and they are wrong about something) specifically their failure to understand how exactly they've affected you with their actions.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

You wouldn't know who was Fi or Fe to begin with; your typing skills sucked while you were here.

Classy.

 

[Flâneuse]

No. To be honest this seems like another example of someone unfairly attributing some obnoxious behavior to a particular type or function when it's actually a result of general immaturity. People with more refined/developed Fi in my experience are very reflective and honest with themselves, willing to face and admit to their own wrongdoing rather than caught up in preserving their egos/sense of superiority/moral upper hand over someone. (From what I’ve seen, it’s actually more common for Fi-users of average-to-high maturity levels to overattribute blame to themselves and overthink about what they could have done differently after a conflict situation occurs.) Immature Fi, on the other hand, I do associate with ego, self-righteousness, or a weak or false sense of self, and I've met these less healthy and mature Fi-users who not only were unwilling to apologize, but were prone to projecting, blaming others, anything to avoid having to honestly look at what they’ve done wrong. Like I said, it ultimately comes down to the person's maturity level, not their type.