Fi users and not apologizing

[Forever_Jung]

you're missing the point. i don't give a shit what your definition is.

are you trying to say that due to our differing definitions you are allowed to behave like a child?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI-HHf2Ae3U&t=2m26s

 

[Lady_X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI-HHf2Ae3U&t=2m26s

it wouldn't play for me??

 

[Azure Flame]

wow...okay why the misdirection? it is so not important.

children do not have the intellectual or emotional maturity to express themselves through language. they do not have the capacity for self reflection or empathy. they do not have the life experience to grasp the intricacy of interpersonal relationships.

Ok, see what you don't understand is that my introspective capacity is severely limited. And what you don't understand is that my ability to express my emotions is on the level of Senator Phil Davison (lol). And what you don't understand is that this is how my brain works. When my feelings are hurt, I don't realize it until half an hour has passed by.

adult brains should have matured to the point that they are capable of communicating their needs effectively without resorting to childish acts out of frustration.

um, adult ENFP brains such as yours?

I am explicitely incapable of such a task without great difficulty.

we can all be childish and imperfect communicators...and as adults we ought to realize that and aim to fix it.

that's all. adults take responsibility for their part and try to communicate to the best of their ability to resolve it....that's it..that's what i mean. you don't cut people out...you communicate.

Ok. So an adult would have approached her and said "what's the deal?"

Well, unfortunately you haven't lived my life, where I've been doing that for the last 25 years. It doesn't work. People say whatever they can to get you out of their face. Its not worth the effort anymore. I have a series of best friends who understand me. As I'm not in a begging position to make friends anymore, I could care less what others think, and I door slam. The energy to maintain these friendships takes too much time and energy for me to deal with.

If you disagree with this life philosophy, then this is where you and I are different.

 

[Azure Flame]

For some reason I feel like every bit of feedback you just gave me was projection and criticism that you give yourself in secret.

"stop acting like a child and confront her."


HELLO, HAVE YOU SEEN MY PERSONALITY TYPE? HAVE YOU MET ME IN PERSON WHERE I CAN NEVER BE BANNED FOR WHAT I SAY?

 

[Forever_Jung]

it wouldn't play for me??

It's [MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]'s youtube channel. I linked to a specific point in a video where he says ENFP's aren't going to try to understand the words he's choosing. As a Ti user, he's using very precise words. Then he goes on to talk about differing definitions and misunderstandings with ENFP's. It's funny, I was just listening out of curiousity, because the video is about distinguishing INFP's and ENFP's, and as I changed back to this tab, I saw your exchange. I figured that's why he's labouring over definitions so much. Seemed too perfect to be a coincidence.

Anyway, as you were everyone, just popping in.

 

[Azure Flame]

It's [MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]'s youtube channel. I linked to a specific point in a video where he says ENFP's aren't going to try to understand the words he's choosing. As a Ti user, he's using very precise words. Then he goes on to talk about differing definitions and misunderstandings with ENFP's. It's funny, I was just listening out of curiousity, because the video is about distinguishing INFP's and ENFP's, and as I changed back to this tab, I saw your exchange. I figured that's why he's labouring over definitions so much. Seemed too perfect to be a coincidence.

Anyway, as you were everyone, just popping in.

Thank you for noticing. If I wanted to be a child I wouldn't have asked you your definition of "adult," and simply assumed you were just trolling.

Unless you are, in which case, carry on.

 

[Lady_X]

Ok, see what you don't understand is that my introspective capacity is severely limited. And what you don't understand is that my ability to express my emotions is on the level of Senator Phil Davison. And what you don't understand is that this is how my brain works. When my feelings are hurt, I don't realize it until half an hour has passed by.



um, adult ENFP brains such as yours?

I am explicitely incapable of such a task without great difficulty.




Ok. So an adult would have approached her and said "what's the deal?"

Well, unfortunately you haven't lived my life, where I've been doing that for the last 25 years. It doesn't work. People say whatever they can to get you out of their face. Its not worth the effort anymore. I have a series of best friends who understand me. As I'm not in a begging position to make friends anymore, I could care less what others think, and I door slam. The energy to maintain these friendships takes too much time and energy for me to deal with.

If you disagree with this life philosophy, then this is where you and I are different.

absolutely you have the right to decide you don't like someone and don't care to spend time with them etc.

but...this was a girl you liked for 5 months as a friend or whatever and you cut her out rather then communicate with her. so you need someone to show you they'll do whatever it takes to make a relationship work but you're not willing to do that and i'll tell ya what...that will never be enough. it will always have to be both people in a relationship equally doing whatever it takes.

so...start by not expecting what you're not willing to give.

and...of course everyone has issues communicating in one way or another...i can be the worst. i'm sx/sp so i can pull and then PUSH...very hard. until i have a moment of clarity...and my mature brain kicks in a bit.

learning to communicate is a worthwhile process tho and i would think most people on this "typology" forum at least care somewhat.

so all i'm saying is work on yourself...care enough to get better at communicating the things that are hard for you and try a lil harder with people instead of pushing away would be friends so easily.

 

[Forever_Jung]

Thank you for noticing. If I wanted to be a child I wouldn't have asked you your definition of "adult," and simply assumed you were just trolling.

Unless you are, in which case, carry on.

Wait...that second part was addressed at Lady, right?

I only ask because grammatically, it sounds like you're addressing me. However, in the context of this thread, it seems unlikely. I worry I am missing something.

If it was directed at me, I'll try to respond.

Edit: And I'm not being persnickety about grammar to annoy you. I normally don't care about that stuff. But you have to admit, it's pretty confusing to refer to two different people by the same pronoun in adjacent sentences.

 

[Lady_X]

For some reason I feel like every bit of feedback you just gave me was projection and criticism that you give yourself in secret.

"stop acting like a child and confront her."


HELLO, HAVE YOU SEEN MY PERSONALITY TYPE? HAVE YOU MET ME IN PERSON WHERE I CAN NEVER BE BANNED FOR WHAT I SAY?

umm..what? are you serious?

fuck it then...i was actually trying to be helpful. you think everyones out to get you. that's another problem you ought to look at.

 

[Azure Flame]

Wait...that second part was addressed at Lady, right?

I only ask because grammatically, it sounds like you're addressing me. However, in the context of this thread, it seems unlikely. I worry I am missing something.

If it was directed at me, I'll try to respond.

Edit: And I'm not being persnickety about grammar to annoy you. I normally don't care about that stuff. But you have to admit, it's pretty confusing to refer to two different people by the same pronoun in adjacent sentences.

no that was directed at lady

 

[Azure Flame]

umm..what? are you serious?

fuck it then...i was actually trying to be helpful. you think everyones out to get you. that's another problem you ought to look at.

lol, come on.

You just told me to stop being a child and confront her. Then you get defensive when I ask you questions on what it is your'e actually thinking?

You're delusional and in denial of your own flaws, and you're projecting them onto me. You immediately take sides of the ESFP and look for whatever excuse you can find to make it MY fault.

Helpful, my ass. Maybe it helps you feel better about yourself to cast me down as immature.

As far as I can tell, I wasn't even a part of this conversation. This has all been you defending your ego against strawman, as none of your comments make any fucking sense, and you've never met me to make a personal decision.

 

[chickpea]

People who value my solutions to problems they themselves cannot fix.

How much do you charge?

 

[Lady_X]

lol, come on.

You just told me to stop being a child and confront her. Then you get defensive when I ask you questions on what it is your'e actually thinking?

You're delusional and in denial of your own flaws, and you're projecting them onto me. You immediately take sides of the ESFP and look for whatever excuse you can find to make it MY fault.

Helpful, my ass. Maybe it helps you feel better about yourself to cast me down as immature.

As far as I can tell, I wasn't even a part of this conversation. This has all been you defending your ego against strawman, as none of your comments make any fucking sense, and you've never met me to make a personal decision.

you really are bad at reading a situation...i know that sounds condescending but i don't know how else to say it.

enfps can be very blunt...unbiased, non judging and blunt. sometimes it's sugar coated if it seems necessary. it didn't.

i was simply reacting to your post about deleting the thread coupled with the fact that you cut this girl out for a month over something trivial.

i would have said the same in the same way to a friend...it's not personal...it's not about you and it's certainly not about me. i have no issues confronting people in my life. you are the one projecting here not me.

i even quoted a couple of your posts saying that it was nice and that i had a better opinion of you after reading them. because they showed you could take advice and admit fault so i felt my attempts wouldn't be completely wasted on you.

sometimes we all need someone to hold up a mirror and tell us we're being childish or handled something wrong.

we'd all do better to learn to appreciate when people do.

 

[Forever_Jung]

sometimes we all need someone to hold up a mirror and tell us we're being childish or handled something wrong.

we'd all do better to learn to appreciate when people do.

I get more upset when I find out my friends have been holding something back. If I'm being a dink by accident, I want people to tell me. It's like having a piece of food on your face, and people are too polite to say anything, so they let you walk around all day with a piece of broccoli on your lip, that looks like snot from afar.

If someone took you aside and told you, you ought to thank them, not get mad and say: No YOU have food on YOUR face!

 

[Lady_X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI-HHf2Ae3U&t=2m26s

i finally got that to play...that's hilarious and funny actually because i've seen that before. haha my bf was watching some of his videos.

and btw...infps dress really well and put together?? whaaat?? haha i think you need more data dj

 

[prplchknz]

and btw...infps dress really well and put together?? whaaat?? haha i think you need more data dj

according to that I'm the opposite of an INFP

 

[HongDou]

Maybe it helps you feel better about yourself to cast me down as immature.

I don't think the feedback you're receiving is totally baseless. I mean, if I was in your ESFP's position I probably would have had you pay for the phone yourself instead of asking my dad to buy me a new one since you WERE the one who broke it after all. Did it ever cross your mind that that breaking a person's phone is a tad more extreme than that person unplugging yours? Even if she was being a bitch and kept unplugging your phone after you asked, at least she didn't break your phone because you kept trying to play your music.

And I mean, come on, you basically got mad at her for not responding completely positively to your flirting. Not everyone is gonna want to date you - and not just you, this goes for people in general. I've accepted it and I'm sure most people on this forum have also. And let's not forget that you were friends with her before this fiasco, right? If my friend started hitting on me, I don't think my immediate response would be "I want to suck your cock." I'd have to think about how I feel about him, I'd have to let it soak in, I may even flirt back a little so see how it feels to be more than friends. And that may not even be it. If you flirt with a friend out of the blue, they're probably going to be very confused (especially if you're the guy who blew up at her and broke her phone). So in a moment of hesitation, I wouldn't put it pass me to ask you to throw something out for me so I could A) have some space to think or B) try to find a distraction for the moment. And that request to throw something away would be a tool I'd be using myself and not as a weapon against you. My "weapons" are things I make apologies for while my "tools" are rarely things I apologize for, if that makes sense to you. You have to be a little more patient in matters of love. If you cut people out the second they do something you don't like, you're gonna have a very VERY hard time finding someone because even the people we could potentially spend the rest of our lives with will piss us off at one point or another. Don't throw your relationship away over a food tray, dude.

And believe it or not, not everything is attributable to type. I know ESTPs who do struggle with communication but they do it to keep their relationships in one piece. If communication is something you struggle with, try to talk to her anyway. It will better you as a person in the long run. Just because you find communication hard doesn't mean you get an excuse not to communicate at the expense of your relationships. I don't know what your problem is with Fi, but I'm sure it exists somewhere because, yes, I've seen your video where you call ENFPs worthless. And yet here I am taking time out of my day to write something for you that isn't meant entirely to insult you but more to share my input on the situation. And if my message is delivered in a way you don't approve of, I'm sorry. But people are people. Everyone has their differences. Sometimes you may have to filter through the delivery of a message to find the point of the message itself.

 

[Ivy]

Y'all are crazy. I look really nice and put together in my jammies today.

 

[Lady_X]

according to that I'm the opposite of an INFP

yeah the video was not so accurate to us (infp, enfp) but i guess he's just talking about his experience with both types.

 

[skylights]

Yes. It's kind of ironic that the sympathy expressed by F types frequently has the opposite effect from the one intended (at least to Ts). Their assumption of understanding your state of mind is frequently an imposition and a trial. Certainly not a comfort. Only someone who truly understands and is genuinely close to you can begin to sympathise. To assume you can is just presumptuousness. Understanding this makes me less inclined to express sympathy in the ways made banal by tradition - I don't presume to understand what other people are suffering, even if it's something I have firsthand experience of.

Interesting how we all come to it so differently. Fe/Fi, F/T. One intention and a different reception. At least personally, I don't see trying to understand another's suffering as presumptuous - it's trying to help them feel less isolated, letting them know that they have a line of support, etc. Or at the very least, trying to make room for their experience in one's own mental construct. I think Fs tend to do that, tend to integrate people's values into the way their minds work as a way of respecting and harmonizing with others. But I could see how for a T that could be less positive and more intrusive and assuming.

This is extremely well-written, and probably the best answer to my question I could expect. I still cannot fathom it, though. It makes sense in theory, but seems always to fall flat in practice. When people express sympathy to me (at least I think that is what they are trying to do), I do not feel understood or my values acknowledged. I do not want my pain and misfortune to be the focus of our interaction. I either find the expression completely empty, or feel the person is trying to project or impose their values and their interpretation of the situation onto me, which at that point just adds insult to injury. I do not want to connect with such a person, or have them share my awareness in any way. I just want them to leave me alone to address my issues rather than bemoan them. If someone feels for me in a time of difficulty, and wishes to sacrifice cognitive space on my behalf (a great expression) I prefer they devote it to something more positive. (Needless to say, it is very hard for me to express sympathy to others, however much I understand their need and want to help.)

Well, thank you, first off, and sorry it's taken me ages to respond. Interestingly, I actually agree completely with the bolded. Typically I feel very uncomfortable in that situation and try to move on ASAP - except in rare cases where I am still trying to sort through something that left me emotionally upset and I could use another person's thoughts to help me piece it all together and move on. I used to recoil from it when I was younger, and to some extent I still hate someone being very effusive about feeling sorry for me. My ESFJ 2 mom tends to be like that and I love her endlessly but I tend to steel in response to it. If I'm going to sort through my pain with someone, it needs to come on slowly and I need to be in control, not them. So I do understand what you mean.

I think that - and this might be somewhat of a Ne thing - when someone expresses sympathy, I generally see it as a kind gesture plus an opportunity to cherry pick knowledge. I don't really know that I ever assume that it's actually useful beyond making me feel nice. Mostly I just like that others are demonstrating their compassion and awareness of me, which makes me feel supported and trusting. And of course for Fs, feelings are important. Feeling supported and trusting makes me more relaxed and empowered, and that better allows me to handle my problems, even though they still suck. I guess it's sort of a compartmentalization. What I get out of others' sympathy isn't tangible, but I don't look to them for that. I just like the feeling. But if the feeling doesn't do much for you... what you're saying makes sense.

Which, between your and Salome's posts, brings me to the question, how best to offer something positive and useful to a T in distress? Just give them space unless you have something tangibly useful to contribute?

Every Fi valuing E6 thinks I'm unstable and dangerous despite the fact that I've never gone to prison or charged with any offenses other than 4 minor traffic violations. These are shallow words from shallow people.

Tsk, I'm a Fi-valuing e6 and I don't think you're dangerous or unstable, though you certainly seem volatile. More importantly I do think it's notable if a group of highly reactive people tells you that you seemed reactive. It's a useful observation. Don't forget that your very strong forward push in your communication may tend to elicit a strong push backwards, which is probably why a lot of responses have sounded judgmental.