Fi users and not apologizing

[Cellmold]

I don't see the issue.

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION] sounds charming.

*Holds up bag of phones*

Wanna go smash?

 

[Azure Flame]

That sounds fun.

 

[Glycerine]

Well, maybe she just didn't take you all that seriously when you complimented her like, "Oh cool thanks........ hmmm.. I really should throw this garbage away but I don't feel like it... maybe he could throw it away for me?".

Depending on the compliment, they don't necessarily mean much.

Sounds like a "war of the egos" type of situation.

 

[Tiltyred]

Ha, go Marm! I've just been sitting here , thinking surely there's something I must have missed, maybe the OP is not a native speaker of English or something, because the story doesn't make any sense whatsoever ... she asked you to toss a bowl in the trash and you stopped speaking to her and now she gives you pleading expressions and you don't understand why she doesn't understand that she should apologize ... uh ... say what, now?

 

[Glycerine]

Ha, go Marm! I've just been sitting here , thinking surely there's something I must have missed, maybe the OP is not a native speaker of English or something, because the story doesn't make any sense whatsoever ... she asked you to toss a bowl in the trash and you stopped speaking to her and now she gives you pleading expressions and you don't understand why she doesn't understand that she should apologize ... uh ... say what, now?

Well he complimented her on her attractiveness and she responded by asking him to throw away her garbage in a supposedly snooty manner. I guess in a way, dismissing his gesture.

 

[Tiltyred]

She must die.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Theories differ on how to interpret this. Some say you use Fi, but poorly and with little conscious control. As an INTP, you would tend to use T(i) for internal judgment, and Fe rather than Fi for values. The highlighted is false and an overgeneralization. You will have certain things in common with some extraverts but not with others, just as with other introverts.

Oh wow, somebody on this forum understands the basic principles of typological theory.

 

[skylights]

What do you think sympathy usually contains? Intent is no substitute for substance. To me, it usually comes across as just empty pro-forma words that have no real consequence.

Human understanding. Compassion. Acknowledgement of pain and misfortune. Acknowledgement of another's values. Acknowledgement of importance in another's life. The creation of a bridge between one's sense of self and another's. The welcoming of other-awareness into one's mind. The whisper of a reminder that humans are not solitary creatures and we cannot survive without one another, no matter how independent we may be. That we are each a small link in a grand chain and that we each are connected to a greater whole. It also reconnects us with our selves - sympathy tends to make us reflect upon our own values. I think intent is substance, even if the effects are intangible. It may not be real-world action but it is a prerequisite to living a life that is compassionate and aware. Sympathy is affirming to the person who is suffering and it is affirming to the person who is sympathizing. Sometimes there is no productive action that can ease the pain, anyway. Most grave sufferings are grave because they are unchangeable. The consideration of an equal - a pause in one's day and the sacrifice of cognitive space occupied by acknowledgement of their suffering - is in that case the greatest gift that one can give.

I am not saying, of course, that people shouldn't try harder to act on their sympathies. I believe 110% that we should. But I don't think the importance of sympathy should be underestimated, either. It is an extension, however small and however rehearsed, of ourselves to reach out to another being. It's not empty - it's a start. And sometimes it's all that is needed.

 

[Coriolis]

Human understanding. Compassion. Acknowledgement of pain and misfortune. Acknowledgement of another's values. Acknowledgement of importance in another's life. The creation of a bridge between one's sense of self and another's. The welcoming of other-awareness into one's mind. The whisper of a reminder that humans are not solitary creatures and we cannot survive without one another, no matter how independent we may be. That we are each a small link in a grand chain and that we each are connected to a greater whole. It also reconnects us with our selves - sympathy tends to make us reflect upon our own values. I think intent is substance, even if the effects are intangible. It may not be real-world action but it is a prerequisite to living a life that is compassionate and aware. Sympathy is affirming to the person who is suffering and it is affirming to the person who is sympathizing. Sometimes there is no productive action that can ease the pain, anyway. Most grave sufferings are grave because they are unchangeable. The consideration of an equal - a pause in one's day and the sacrifice of cognitive space occupied by acknowledgement of their suffering - is in that case the greatest gift that one can give.

This is extremely well-written, and probably the best answer to my question I could expect. I still cannot fathom it, though. It makes sense in theory, but seems always to fall flat in practice. When people express sympathy to me (at least I think that is what they are trying to do), I do not feel understood or my values acknowledged. I do not want my pain and misfortune to be the focus of our interaction. I either find the expression completely empty, or feel the person is trying to project or impose their values and their interpretation of the situation onto me, which at that point just adds insult to injury. I do not want to connect with such a person, or have them share my awareness in any way. I just want them to leave me alone to address my issues rather than bemoan them. If someone feels for me in a time of difficulty, and wishes to sacrifice cognitive space on my behalf (a great expression) I prefer they devote it to something more positive. (Needless to say, it is very hard for me to express sympathy to others, however much I understand their need and want to help.)

 

[Cellmold]

Oh wow, somebody on this forum understands the basic principles of typological theory.

It's a forum miracle!

 

[Chiharu]

I usually apologize, but it's often later and only if I feel I'm in the wrong.

I won't apologize if I feel I was justified, or if my apology for something I specifically did wrong will indicate a general acceptance of related things.

 

[21%]

This is extremely well-written, and probably the best answer to my question I could expect. I still cannot fathom it, though. It makes sense in theory, but seems always to fall flat in practice. When people express sympathy to me (at least I think that is what they are trying to do), I do not feel understood or my values acknowledged. I do not want my pain and misfortune to be the focus of our interaction. I either find the expression completely empty, or feel the person is trying to project or impose their values and their interpretation of the situation onto me, which at that point just adds insult to injury. I do not want to connect with such a person, or have them share my awareness in any way. I just want them to leave me alone to address my issues rather than bemoan them. If someone feels for me in a time of difficulty, and wishes to sacrifice cognitive space on my behalf (a great expression) I prefer they devote it to something more positive. (Needless to say, it is very hard for me to express sympathy to others, however much I understand their need and want to help.)

Strangely I feel the same way. I never reveal feelings to anyone, except for the closest people, and even so I still keep my deepest, darkest problems and fears to myself. I hate feeling vulnerable, and people 'sympathizing' with me seems intrusive. I've always thought it was a E5 trait.

However, being Fe, I understand where people are coming from and I don't feel that their expression if sympathy is in any way fake or forced. While I don't appreciate the sympathy itself, I appreciate the thought behind it and feel grateful for the fact that people care. I believe that people really do care. Just like how I can empathize with other people's pain, I believe that others really feel for me when something bad happens, no matter how they choose to express it.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

What do you think sympathy usually contains? Intent is no substitute for substance. To me, it usually comes across as just empty pro-forma words that have no real consequence.

I am connected to a number of people with really difficult lives, and also work in places like a cancer center during the year, so there are many situations that trigger sympathy. The basic premise of sympathy is to give time and attention to someone in need and to give over control of the dynamic to them. This often involves listening, but can be anything that they need. Attentive listening is important because sometimes people communicate their needs with subtlety. It can also involve asking directly what the person would like from you. I tend to avoid words like "need" or "help" because many people feel uncomfortable when vulnerable.

I've learned to be more open about my own struggles because for many people, it is disarming. I don't usually do this in the context of offering specific sympathy, but more as part of a neutral exchange. It is also for my own personal development because it helps me overcome any fears about being vulnerable. I'm more comfortable now with people judging or criticizing me than when I was younger. I find it is worth being as authentic and transparent as possible because it makes me more relatable, disarming, and it allows others to determine how much I could understand them in a context outside of when they are expressing their own personal pain.

 

[prplchknz]

assuming internal state =/= not apologizing it's actually quite the opposite

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

assuming internal state =/= not apologizing it's actually quite the opposite

That would be absolutely right. I also think that people apologize through different internal processes, so it might not make sense to say which function apologizes the most or the least, but rather what is the process of apology and remorse.

There are also different ways to assume internal states of another:

One is to assume a singular state - to have one conclusion about another person's internal state vs. assuming a range of possibilities.
One can also assume the emotional state of a person which is different from assuming their motives. For example, we can assume someone feels embarrassed and/or assume exactly why they feel embarrassed.

I suspect apology can be triggered by any of these processes. It could be interesting to really examine it.

 

[prplchknz]

That would be absolutely right. I also think that people apologize through different internal processes, so it might not make sense to say which function apologizes the most or the least, but rather what is the process of apology and remorse.

There are also different ways to assume internal states of another:

One is to assume a singular state - to have one conclusion about another person's internal state vs. assuming a range of possibilities.
Another is to assume the emotional state of a person in reaction to ourselves. This is different from assuming their motives. For example, we can assume someone feels embarrassed and/or assume exactly why they feel embarrassed.

I suspect apology can be triggered by any of these processes. It could be interesting to really examine it.

they should do a study, I think that be really cool

 

[Salomé]

She loves it when I clench my teeth, get aggressive at her and start making rape jokes. She starts laughing hysterically and her body actually recoils with energy. I haven't seen someone react like that before, haha.

Marm is right. You seem unstable and potentially dangerous. Get help before you wind up really hurting someone / yourself.

Also, since you fail at body language/common sense reading of situations, "recoiling" is associated with horror more than pleasure. I find you utterly disgusting and would certainly recoil from you. Some women laugh hysterically when they are nervous or afraid. It's not a compliment.

Human understanding. Compassion. Acknowledgement of pain and misfortune. Acknowledgement of another's values. Acknowledgement of importance in another's life. The creation of a bridge between one's sense of self and another's. The welcoming of other-awareness into one's mind.

When people express sympathy to me (at least I think that is what they are trying to do), I do not feel understood or my values acknowledged. I do not want my pain and misfortune to be the focus of our interaction. I either find the expression completely empty, or feel the person is trying to project or impose their values and their interpretation of the situation onto me, which at that point just adds insult to injury. I do not want to connect with such a person, or have them share my awareness in any way. I just want them to leave me alone to address my issues rather than bemoan them.

Yes. It's kind of ironic that the sympathy expressed by F types frequently has the opposite effect from the one intended (at least to Ts). Their assumption of understanding your state of mind is frequently an imposition and a trial. Certainly not a comfort. Only someone who truly understands and is genuinely close to you can begin to sympathise. To assume you can is just presumptuousness. Understanding this makes me less inclined to express sympathy in the ways made banal by tradition - I don't presume to understand what other people are suffering, even if it's something I have firsthand experience of.

 

[Lady_X]

Well there was more to it than that. First I glared at her for 3 whole seconds. Then I looked at the plate. Then I cursed and said, "Because I"m such a nice fucking guy." and left.

I feel like, if anyone has a pair of eyes and a brain they'd know what just happened.

Also, its not that I'm being shoved into the "nice guy" corner, its that her respect for me completely dropped. I felt disrespected. Perhaps this means the same thing. I'd rather be viewed as her equal and not her servant. Considering we've been joking with each other for the last 4 months, this came completely out of nowhere.

So is she really that oblivious to me? I find it very difficult, especially for a feeler, to be that oblivious to when they hurt someone's feelings. ESPECIALLY when my feelings are hurt. I have to hide my negative feelings from everyone at all times, because I can singlehandedly lower the emotions of an entire room. I am cursed with having my hand on the emotional volume dial at all times in almost all situations.

i'm sorry but what a two year old lil baby tantrum.

you should've just looked at her dryly and said no....or hey...throw the fucking thing away because who the fuck cares!

no really...i think the whole thing sounds ridiculous but lexicon has made some great points.

she probably decided it was alright to ask you because she wouldn't mind you asking her. that's kinda how fi works.

 

[Azure Flame]

Marm is right. You seem unstable and potentially dangerous. Get help before you wind up really hurting someone / yourself.

Also, since you fail at body language/common sense reading of situations, "recoiling" is associated with horror more than pleasure. I find you utterly disgusting and would certainly recoil from you. Some women laugh hysterically when they are nervous or afraid. It's not a compliment.

I guess that's why she keeps coming back and prodding me to make more jokes.

I also don't appreciate you rewriting the situation and telling me I'm "utterly disgusting." There are people who enjoy crude intensity moreso than you do, apparently. This doesn't mean you should condescend others because of what YOU deem to be gross.

Also marm is an E6. Every Fi valuing E6 thinks I'm unstable and dangerous despite the fact that I've never gone to prison or charged with any offenses other than 4 minor traffic violations. These are shallow words from shallow people.

 

[HongDou]

Every Fi valuing E6 thinks I'm unstable and dangerous despite the fact that I've never gone to prison or charged with any offenses other than 4 minor traffic violations. These are shallow words from shallow people.

>implying that unstable and dangerous people always go to prison and get charged with offenses