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Fi users and not apologizing

Azure Flame

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I get along well with ESFP's but my best friend (ESFP) takes MONTHS to appologize...everything you've stated here is correct. I pretend to get along with ISFP's but they're the same...I loath them secretly tho( most of the time) the reason is YES, THEY DON'T FUCKING SAY SORRY!

Now that the rant's out of the way... To be logical: Being an Fi user...bad one but still one. I understand an introverted feeler waaay more than an extraverted feeler. Meaning I get TJ's and FP's... because the more someone holds back emotion...shows that they care to me...It's weird i know. But it's like a language in a way. My one friend was so happy i did something for her and her reaction was simply a hug, and I could see her holding back tears. That is more impactful than someone saying thank you i appreciate this. So the other answer is YES they're assuming. They assume that you know they're sorry from that look they're giving you...they're speaking Fi.

my ISFP ex would get upset anytime I vocalized my affection toward her, and she'd start pushing me away and acted like I was just some player out for sex.

I totally know what you mean by the whole "holding back" thing. And in a sense I wish I was capable of something like that, like how some people wait until the day before marriage to say "I love you" and it actually MEANS SOMETHING!

But even then I think the dynamic works out between NFJ's and STP's. I find NFJ's seek verbal affirmation, and I am willing to give that. In fact I need to, or else it bottles up, which is painful to me.
 

Azure Flame

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Sorry I'm sorta stalking your thread; it's just an interesting one.

It kind of makes sense that you and e6s typically have a hard time. You're very forceful-forward - the most forceful type/wing/instinct combination of the Enneagram - and 6s natively react. We don't have the same grounded, assured feeling that you have - we feel knocked about by our environment. It really throws a 6 off to have such forceful forward energy coming at them - it's like the force of your energy requires an equal amount of energy on the 6's part either to react back at you, or to restabilize themselves after being pushed in a certain direction.

I'm interested in what you mean about 6s being hurtful to open up to. I know one 6 that I trust in that sense and another who I don't trust, as she's shared personal feelings I've told her in confidence before.

Because they're ingratiating. They act all nice and stuff when they don't actually trust you at all. Then when you get too close BOOM, they slap you with some reactive comment that you were completely unprepared for.

I can't date that. If you hurt my feelings unpredictably, I won't be able to trust you. As I said before, when I open my heart to someone, its wide open for the stabbing.
 

skylights

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Because they're ingratiating. They act all nice and stuff when they don't actually trust you at all. Then when you get too close BOOM, they slap you with some reactive comment that you were completely unprepared for.

I can't date that. If you hurt my feelings unpredictably, I won't be able to trust you. As I said before, when I open my heart to someone, its wide open for the stabbing.

Ah, I see. I tend to assume that all people are simultaneously behaving in one way and thinking in a different one, for the sake of harmony and/or efficiency, and that with greater proximity comes greater trust, so more "inappropriate" feelings will be revealed in closer relationships. Not that I am not hurt when finding out that someone has given one impression and really feels differently, of course.
 

Azure Flame

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Sorry I'm sorta stalking your thread; it's just an interesting one.

It kind of makes sense that you and e6s typically have a hard time. You're very forceful-forward - the most forceful type/wing/instinct combination of the Enneagram - and 6s natively react. We don't have the same grounded, assured feeling that you have - we feel knocked about by our environment. It really throws a 6 off to have such forceful forward energy coming at them - it's like the force of your energy requires an equal amount of energy on the 6's part either to react back at you, or to restabilize themselves after being pushed in a certain direction.

Hmm. Yes palmer described how E6's view the world as if its very fragile and could shatter at any moment. Her example said, "some people view the glass as half empty, some view it as half full, 6's just realize the glass could shatter at any moment." My boss was an E6, and I threatened to hire all his employees away from him. I managed to get all their business cards and tell them I'll pay them more than he does. They were down with the idea. My boss pulled me aside, screamed at me. The whole time he was shaking and pacing back and forth. lol.

I think my intellectual speed and bouncing energy can make some people think I'm just a walking tornado or something, like at any moment I could break something for no fuckin reason at all.

One INTJ 5 I met described an ESTP as, "he sprinted out of a party, turned on the motorcycle and immediately slammed headfirst into a tree." lol. Part of me thinks that story was made up, but it paints a good image of ESTP's as loose cannons in general.

I actually think this is a sensor trait. I find ESFJ's to be even worse than I am at this, haha.
 

EJCC

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Haven't read the whole thread, so someone may have said something like this already, but here's my response to the OP.

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

I'm familiar with that process of seeming/feeling remorseful and then acting really, really nice -- because I've done that to others before. But it's not ever because I should have said sorry; when I am sorry, I make an active and concerted effort to say sorry. When I act like that ESFP, it's because I know the person is mad at me, but I don't think I've done anything wrong -- and I'm hoping that they'll calm down and realize how irrational they were, so we can be friends again.

Edit: It's not that I'll act remorseful and not mean it... just to clarify. It's that I'm sad that they're mad at me, and I wish they weren't -- and I wish there was something I could do about it, without apologizing.
 

Azure Flame

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Ah, I see. I tend to assume that all people are simultaneously behaving in one way and thinking in a different one, for the sake of harmony and/or efficiency, and that with greater proximity comes greater trust, so more "inappropriate" feelings will be revealed in closer relationships. Not that I am not hurt when finding out that someone has given one impression and really feels differently, of course.

I think with me, once I open up, that's it. There's really nothing more past that other than knowledge and what I'm thinking. My surface behavior is completely completely different from my underlying behavior. For example, my ENFJ 3 best friend over here is awesome, and sometimes I catch myself following him around like a puppy every so often. I actually have to remind myself not to do that. Around him I'm really quiet and calm. When I'm away from him or a girlfriend, I often change back to... how I sorta feel right now. Neurotic and all over the place.
 

Azure Flame

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Haven't read the whole thread, so someone may have said something like this already, but here's my response to the OP.

[MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION]

I'm familiar with that process of seeming/feeling remorseful and then acting really, really nice -- because I've done that to others before. But it's not ever because I should have said sorry; when I am sorry, I make an active and concerted effort to say sorry. When I act like that ESFP, it's because I know the person is mad at me, but I don't think I've done anything wrong -- and I'm hoping that they'll calm down and realize how irrational they were, so we can be friends again.

Edit: It's not that I'll act remorseful and not mean it... just to clarify. It's that I'm sad that they're mad at me, and I wish they weren't -- and I wish there was something I could do about it, without apologizing.

By the description you just gave it seems like that's exactly what she's thinking. I guess I'll ask her if I owe her an explanation.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I think I only expect apologies as an ultimatum. Either you apologize or I stop talking to you and move on. And so I'd like to learn if its acceptable to take her sad face and ingratiating tone as enough of an apology.

I don't quite understand what upset you so much, but I don't think it's acceptable to take a sad face as an apology. Having the cajones to make a verbal apology and put yourself on the line is something someone owes me if they really do care about me. It's not terribly difficult to apologize, it simply requires a modicum of humility. I'm not asking them to build a rocketship. Just, apologize, and give me verbal acknowledgment that you know you fucked up, and let's move on from there.
 

prplchknz

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I don't quite understand what upset you so much, but I don't think it's acceptable to take a sad face as an apology. Having the cajones to make a verbal apology and put yourself on the line is something someone owes me if they really do care about me. It's not terribly difficult to apologize, it simply requires a modicum of humility. I'm not asking them o build a rocketship. Just, apologize, and give me verbal acknowledgment that you know you fucked up, and let's move on from there.

some people would build a rocket ship over apologize though
 

Lexicon

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some people would build a rocket ship over apologize though

Well building a rocketship for someone would definitely be pretty sweet, I think we can all agree on that. . .
 

prplchknz

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Well building a rocketship for someone would definitely be pretty sweet, I think we can all agree on that. . .

yes ooh i found a tardis mug on facebook i neeeeed it. i'm gonna buy it next month
 

skylights

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Hmm. Yes palmer described how E6's view the world as if its very fragile and could shatter at any moment. Her example said, "some people view the glass as half empty, some view it as half full, 6's just realize the glass could shatter at any moment."

:laugh: Yes, that sounds accurate!

My boss was an E6, and I threatened to hire all his employees away from him. I managed to get all their business cards and tell them I'll pay them more than he does. They were down with the idea. My boss pulled me aside, screamed at me. The whole time he was shaking and pacing back and forth. lol.

Ha, cruel, but evidently it worked.

I think my intellectual speed and bouncing energy can make some people think I'm just a walking tornado or something, like at any moment I could break something for no fuckin reason at all.

One INTJ 5 I met described an ESTP as, "he sprinted out of a party, turned on the motorcycle and immediately slammed headfirst into a tree." lol. Part of me thinks that story was made up, but it paints a good image of ESTP's as loose cannons in general.

I actually think this is a sensor trait. I find ESFJ's to be even worse than I am at this, haha.

Lol, I haven't seen that out of the ESFJs I know! ESFPs, maybe. You do seem very active/reactive. And fast-paced, certainly. So you can see why an e6 in their china shop would be terrified by your proverbial bull. You do come across as almost cp 6, interestingly enough.

I think with me, once I open up, that's it. There's really nothing more past that other than knowledge and what I'm thinking. My surface behavior is completely completely different from my underlying behavior. For example, my ENFJ 3 best friend over here is awesome, and sometimes I catch myself following him around like a puppy every so often. I actually have to remind myself not to do that. Around him I'm really quiet and calm. When I'm away from him or a girlfriend, I often change back to... how I sorta feel right now. Neurotic and all over the place.

:laugh: Aw, Sx merging! I see. Maybe some degree of pain derived from having felt merged and then suddenly being ripped from that?
 

Evo

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E8 power dynamics aren't a self referencing phenomenon. Part of the reason E8's worry about power dynamics is to avoid being hurt. To protect themselves and from all the BS most people put them through. As I've spend 23 years of my life being "open minded" to most people, I've learned that this is a road to hurt, and I've thus started door slamming anyone on the first sign that they're not someone I want to deal with. I think she's an E6. In my experience those have almost always been very push pull and hurtful people to open up to. So to be tested like this only tells me that this is just the beginning.

Its incredibly judgemental, but this is a learned tactic I've developed over the years and for good reason. And my life is becoming much better because of it.

Hmm. I know this feeling all too well. I actually have made it my #2 priority in regards to self preservation to cut people that I am continually hurt by out of my life. And now I'm so worn to the point that if someone does one thing wrong...and don't appologize or don't try to make amends with me( AFTER ALL THE GD YEARS I HAVE) I say goodbye abruptly. Done. Don't care. Don't need that shit. I have a very LOW tolerance for Fi now lol...Cause they SUCK at making amends. I am a 6. If i like someone, freind, relationship, coworker, etc, and I think I might have even slightly hurt their feelings by looking at their facial expressions or behavior...I immediately appologize, and correct whatever the problem is.

Other people don't seem to freggin do this...WTF? Well I realized what the f it is...I am SURROUNDED by Fi-doms.

An ISFP literally said to me " I don't like to give or recieve appologies, because if you were really sorry, you wouldn't have done it in the first place." <----that shit is dumb. So no one is allowed to make mistakes?

So I have met 1 ISFP that's kool. Out of 9 that I can think of off the top of my head.

INFP's are a mixed bag. But most of the time they seem to be worth it to say sorry to first.

ESFP's I can forgive easily...cause they can show they're sorry to me in other ways more action oriented than other Fi-doms

ENFP's don't know enough
 

cafe

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I should probably be happy it isn't INFJs being the whipping boys/girls this time, but the whole situation sounds crazy to me. Although, like others have said, I can see it being worth dealing with crazy people briefly if there was going to be a rocket ship in it for me.

Otherwise, if someone is not at least as much fun as eating saltines and reading about rocket ships (the sci-fi version) then why would I not just hang out by myself and have fun with Siranth Jax or John Perry or Andrew Wiggins? I know they aren't going to suddenly hit on me or make me throw away their salad bowl. Hell, they won't even hog the saltines.
 

Such Irony

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I'm not so convinced this is an Fi/Fe thing. Sounds like poor use of F in general.


So, after learning some socionics, I've learned that Fi often ASSUMES the internal state of other people, while Fe needs to hear it in an objective fashion.

Simultaneously, I notice that Fe users tend to appologize much more readily than Fi users.

I recently was hitting on an ESFP. I told her she was attractive at one point. She then flipped and went princess on me. She was eating a salad out of a styrofoam bowl, and when she was done, held the bowl up to my face and said, "can you throw this away for me?"

I looked at her feeling pain from what she said, and responded, "because I'm such a nice fucking guy." I took her tray and threw it out for her and didn't speak to her for a month.

She started to realize that I had no intention of speaking to her ever again. I door slammed her. She started getting upset and anytime I was near she'd look at me a lot and make faces of concern. I don't know what emotion it was specifically. Some sort of remorse, guilt, something.

She's never appologized. I haven't bothered asking her to either. Last time I asked an esfp to appologize to me was a disaster.

So now she's super nice to me. So, in general Fi user fashion, I'm assuming this is her way of apologizing. I've had an INTJ appologize to me once when he started cleaning my room and asking me how my day was etc. I had an ENTJ appologize to me by looking at the floor and stating things awkwardly. So I assume its something similar with ESFP.

So now I'm wondering, is she actually sorry? Do Fi users need to appologize? Or should I just assume it?

From my perspective, the lack of an apology seems like a blatant form of selfishness, as if being right is more important than whatever else is on her mind. What do you think? What is going on in her mind? Why do Fi users do this? Is there something about their ego that prevents them from apologizing?
 

SolitaryWalker

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I am an INTP, so does that mean I never use Fi? E is not part of my four letter MBTI code, so does that mean that whatever holds true about extroverts does not hold true about me?

Whether or not someone apologizes or not depends on the context or the beliefs about etiquette they may hold.
 

Mole

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Trust me

I am an INTP, so does that mean I never use Fi? E is not part of my four letter MBTI code, so does that mean that whatever holds true about extroverts does not hold true about me?

Whether or not someone apologizes or not depends on the context or the beliefs about etiquette they may hold.

Look Sol, the INTP Police are keeping an eye on you to make sure you don't use Fi.

It's in your interests, Sol, to remember that the Police are suspicious of solitary pedestrians, loitering with intent to use Fi, when no one is looking.

E is not part of your MBTI code, so any attempt to use E will appear awkward and immediately arouse suspicion.

Trust me, and keep a low profile Mr Walker, your phantom Fi and E will only arouse suspicion.
[MENTION=14179]SolitaryWalker[/MENTION]
 
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