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Which Function Is Closest To The Unconscious And Why?

Mal12345

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Yeah, this is all that comes up for me when I think "unconscious" or "subconscious" as well. So I had a hard time understanding what [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] is asking in the op. [highlander- by "closest to", are you asking opinions about if it seems like one function has more access/insight into the unconscious? ]

As for the obscurity of the OP question, I could argue that Te and Fe are "closest" to the unconscious. Because those types are the most reactionary, and the unconscious is a reactionary part of the mind.
 

King sns

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hmmm, I think of "unconscious" as totally different than "subconscious" but that may just be nitpicking what you're talking about here. Ni makes sense to be closest to the "subconscious" though perhaps that just includes subconscious awareness in many cases and can articulate some of the aspects better. But we all are different representations of God (or for non believers, whatever the ultimate reality is), then one would have to use all their resources to reach the subconscious.... Would not be enough to just use the Ni (or the Fi, or both) , you would have to use every energy capacity you have in tandem and as strong as you can... So it would be "all" but in any given person it would just be "all you can have access to." I imagine if you can develop really strong use of what you have and be open to what you're unaware of or the things that are "unconscious" then you'd really be gold in reaching whatever goes on underneath. (/obviousness and verbiage.) The word "unconscious" just seems like some kind of an insult to me.

(Edit, too lazy to change my profile from making fun of [MENTION=9627]Chawie[/MENTION] mode so just ignore that.)

(oh yea... and insert Ayn Rand quote har har)
 

Cellmold

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As for the obscurity of the OP question, I could argue that Te and Fe are "closest" to the unconscious. Because those types are the most reactionary, and the unconscious is a reactionary part of the mind.

I was thinking exactly the same actually. < Reacts in an Fe agreement manner.
 

Mal12345

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I was thinking exactly the same actually. < Reacts in an Fe agreement manner.

Nervous impulses (or as Jung calls them, innervations) from the unconscious create an immediate reflex action in the Fe and Te.
 

highlander

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Yeah, this is all that comes up for me when I think "unconscious" or "subconscious" as well. So I had a hard time understanding what [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] is asking in the op. [highlander- by "closest to", are you asking opinions about if it seems like one function has more access/insight into the unconscious? ]

I meant a situation where the the function has greater access to drawing things from the unconscious - if that makes any sense.
 

Mal12345

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hmmm, I think of "unconscious" as totally different than "subconscious" but that may just be nitpicking what you're talking about here. Ni makes sense to be closest to the "subconscious" though perhaps that just includes subconscious awareness in many cases and can articulate some of the aspects better. But we all are different representations of God (or for non believers, whatever the ultimate reality is), then one would have to use all their resources to reach the subconscious.... Would not be enough to just use the Ni (or the Fi, or both) , you would have to use every energy capacity you have in tandem and as strong as you can... So it would be "all" but in any given person it would just be "all you can have access to." I imagine if you can develop really strong use of what you have and be open to what you're unaware of or the things that are "unconscious" then you'd really be gold in reaching whatever goes on underneath. (/obviousness and verbiage.) The word "unconscious" just seems like some kind of an insult to me.

(Edit, too lazy to change my profile from making fun of [MENTION=9627]Chawie[/MENTION] mode so just ignore that.)

(oh yea... and insert Ayn Rand quote har har)

"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."
Ayn Rand
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yes, and in interestingly different ways. Ni does not experience these intuitions as coming from the self, they are treated as if they are external realities. This gives the Ni type motivation to act upon these "realities." For example, if I were an Ni-dominant, and I saw a loved one die in a vision, and I also mistook the vision as real (although real in the future as a prophecy), I would do everything in my power to prevent it from happening.

Or younglings. Because of his actions, he caused his wife to lose her will to live (which was totally in character, too) . (What I think really happened is that she was supposed to die from Anakin force-choking him, but Lucas wimped out.)

I don't think Ne is very tied to the unconscious at all. It seems more like a mixing matching of ideas.

I wonder if it even makes sense to think of the behavior of functions "by themselves." It probably makes more sense to think of function pares... a perceiving function and a judging function acting in concert, like Ti Ne or Ti Si. I mean, the judging functions need preception, "food", right?
 

Mal12345

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Or younglings. Because of his actions, he caused his wife to lose her will to live (which was totally in character, too) . (What I think really happened is that she was supposed to die from Anakin force-choking him, but Lucas wimped out.)

I don't think Ne is very tied to the unconscious at all. It seems more like a mixing matching of ideas.

I wonder if it even makes sense to think of the behavior of functions "by themselves." It probably makes more sense to think of function pares... a perceiving function and a judging function acting in concert, like Ti Ne or Ti Si. I mean, the judging functions need preception, "food", right?

You're mentioning a few ideas here, and I'm not sure how they're all related. But in general, the more the introvert tries to strengthen himself against the objective influence of the external world - especially that of people or society (this is the Fe you're referring to) - the weaker he becomes with regard to it.

Judging functions need something to judge. But more interesting is the fact that introverted judging (Ti and Fi) is insecure in its judgments regarding the external realm. It has "poor" judgment toward that, but excellent judgment regarding things of the mind - theories (math, science, sociology, psychology, etc.). Extroverted judging, on the other hand, appears to have excellent judgment with regard to external matters, but it has "poor" judgment regarding things of the mind.

So if you meet anybody who appears to have poor judgment, that person is a Perceiver. Those with excellent judgment are Judgers. But keep in mind that, with regard to internal focus or attitude, which is more difficult to discern, they are quite the opposite.

I would say that extroverted functions are not consciously tied to the unconscious, and that introverted functions are more consciously tied to the unconscious.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I would say that extroverted functions are not consciously tied to the unconscious, and that introverted functions are more consciously tied to the unconscious.



I suppose you're saying that the extroverted functions are too strongly tied to the "world" to be unconscious. That makes sense.

I'm not sure that you can consider the judging functions unconscious, though. It seems to me that a perceiving function would use information from the unconscious. A judging function synthesizes, it does not retrieve or acquire information, correct?

Personally, I find it hard to separate the actions of Ne or Si from Ti in my mind. They seem to work in concert with each other, never alone, if I understand things correctly. So it's possible i'm wrong, but it seems to me to be against the role of the judging functions to be "close to" the unconscious. Any "unconscious" data used by the judging functions is actually filtered by a perceiving function first.
 

Mal12345

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I suppose you're saying that the extroverted functions are too strongly tied to the "world" to be unconscious. That makes sense.

I'm not sure that you can consider the judging functions unconscious, though. It seems to me that a perceiving function would use information from the unconscious. A judging function synthesizes, it does not retrieve or acquire information, correct?

Personally, I find it hard to separate the actions of Ne or Si from Ti in my mind. They seem to work in concert with each other, never alone, if I understand things correctly. So it's possible i'm wrong, but it seems to me to be against the role of the judging functions to be "close to" the unconscious. Any "unconscious" data used by the judging functions is actually filtered by a perceiving function first.

The laws of logic are just as, if not more, important to Ti judgment as any concrete or abstract data. If it weren't possible to create pure laws of logic - pure, as in, divorced from all content - then maybe I would agree with you.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The laws of logic are just as, if not more, important to Ti judgment as any concrete or abstract data. If it weren't possible to create pure laws of logic - pure, as in, divorced from all content - then maybe I would agree with you.

Are you saying that the laws of logic are unconscious? Interesting.

It's true, I don't seem to chew over or even think about logic. It's just something that comes naturally. When I come across something that doesn't make sense to me, it sticks out almost instantaneously.
 

Mal12345

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Are you saying that the laws of logic are unconscious? Interesting.

It's true, I don't seem to chew over or even think about logic. It's just something that comes naturally. When I come across something that doesn't make sense to me, it sticks out almost instantaneously.

No, I'm saying that judging takes place without content.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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No, I'm saying that judging takes place without content.


Oh. Gotcha. So Ti, Fi, Fe and Te can all be isolated, if any particular thought is broken down enough.

I suppose I was thinking in the sense of where the laws of logic actually come from in the human mind, and how "automatic" it can seem.
 

Mal12345

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Oh. Gotcha.

I suppose I was thinking on the sense of where the laws of logic actually come from in the human mind.

The answer: Anywhere, everywhere......... nowhere.
 

Kalach

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"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."
Ayn Rand

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