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Fi users (especially FPs) - what do you like about Fe?

digesthisickness

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Preference would have been to 'nothing at all'. imo, the OP was just bait - better not to bite.

I agree. Not because I'm selfish or because I want anything, because it's true that opinions are just that, opinions, and I get that, but I just didn't see the point of it. It's the principle of the thing. There are people who are more sensitive than I am and would give it more weight.

And, I'm capable of getting that and caring about it.
 

Amargith

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Look, Fe is going to occasionally get in Fi's way and irritate it, much like Fi will irritate Fe in its unique vision thingy :shrug:

Personally, I have more of a beef with Ti than Fe, but I admire both and can be quite in awe when they are being used in all their glory.

But yeah, occasionally they frustrate the shit out of me when they get in my business for what I consider no reason, I won't deny that.

That is true for all functions though, not just Fe. There is no reason to hate Fe more, imho.
 

Eilonwy

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Both good points. But something that has always bothered me about how Fe is described is that it is often outlined as a function depending entirely on environment and that without a positive environment it becomes used to bad practice and poor conduct, because that would be the social norm.

I can't imagine, for example, Fe ever coming up with ideas of rebellion or social change, without those ideas first being implanted in the Fe's environment by external sources. The flimsiness of this is quite frightening when you examine it.

thread derail:

I'm confused by what you wrote. Doesn't most, if not all, information come in to the brain from the outside? Is there any time in a human being's life that the brain is completely isolated from the outside environment? Even people doing sensory deprivation experiments, to see what happens with the brain and its thoughts when all outside stimulus is taken away, have had outside stimulus during their lifetime. So, how can we know what kind of ideas will form in a brain with only internal sources to draw from? How could that brain even communicate without some way to reach the external world? Wouldn't a more realistic view be that we all have functions that take in external information and process internal information? So, the order of those functions and the environments we grew up in, will probably affect how much weight we give to external influences over internal ones and vice versa?


ETA: So, wouldn't that mean that Fe gives more weight to the emotional info coming from external sources and Fi gives more weight to internal emotional info? It doesn't necessarily follow that Fe will only act according to external influences and Fi will only act according to internal influences. We all supposedly have some free will in the matter. Also, how much weight is given in each case will vary according to the situation. And how that function is applied will also be influenced by the other dom or aux function.

If we take out as much of the personal bias as we can, isn't all anyone can say about me and my Fe is that, when I'm processing emotional information, I will always tend to put more weight (give some preference to) to the external emotional information that I perceive? How that translates into real world acts will depend on many other factors than just Fe.

/thread derail
 

digesthisickness

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Look, Fe is going to occasionally get in Fi's way and irritate it, much like Fi will irritate Fe in its unique vision thingy :shrug:

Personally, I have more of a beef with Ti than Fe, but I admire both and can be quite in awe when they are being used in all their glory.

But yeah, occasionally they frustrate the shit out of me when they get in my business for what I consider no reason, I won't deny that.

That is true for all functions though, not just Fe. There is no reason to hate Fe more, imho.

Ha! Isn't that the truth! When all is said and done, it's always the person wielding a function and how they use it that matters. I'd never EVER do so many things said in this thread and hate when they're done to me as well. I don't blame anyone for being bugged by a lot of it as I'm bugged by it too!

Same with Fi and all the other functions. The exact same ones can have totally different manifestations depending on the people, and when conversing about them, it's nice when it's rounded and open. When good threads are made as well as negative ones, so that that message gets through, I think. :)
 

Cellmold

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Ah, but Fe (like Te, Ne, and Se) isn't "external" in the sense that the user wields no control over it. We focus on and interpret the things that are most important to us - and Fe acts on values and may help develop them, but the functions are brain processes, not content. It is up to each individual to determine the content.

Take an ENFJ friend of mine from college - he was a lanky, little bit dorky white guy who was at the head of a grasroots student movement to increase racial diversity in the school. Most students really didn't have that issue even on their minds, and it was very unpopular amongst the administration, who would prefer not to draw attention to that, but it was a present external disparity with negative consequences, and he used his incredible charisma and interpersonal skills to increase awareness amongst his peers and affect change.

I'll believe that when I see it.

thread derail:

I'm confused by what you wrote. Doesn't most, if not all, information come in to the brain from the outside? Is there any time in a human being's life that the brain is completely isolated from the outside environment? Even people doing sensory deprivation experiments, to see what happens with the brain and its thoughts when all outside stimulus is taken away, have had outside stimulus during their lifetime. So, how can we know what kind of ideas will form in a brain with only internal sources to draw from? How could that brain even communicate without some way to reach the external world? Wouldn't a more realistic view be that we all have functions that take in external information and process internal information? So, the order of those functions and the environments we grew up in, will probably affect how much weight we give to external influences over internal ones and vice versa?


ETA: So, wouldn't that mean that Fe gives more weight to the emotional info coming from external sources and Fi gives more weight to internal emotional info? It doesn't necessarily follow that Fe will only act according to external influences and Fi will only act according to internal influences. We all supposedly have some free will in the matter. Also, how much weight is given in each case will vary according to the situation. And how that function is applied will also be influenced by the other dom or aux function.

If we take out as much of the personal bias as we can, isn't all anyone can say about me and my Fe is that, when I'm processing emotional information, I will always tend to put more weight (give some preference to) to the external emotional information that I perceive? How that translates into real world acts will depend on many other factors than just Fe.

/thread derail

This is not really relevant to what I was getting at. Firstly when I said outside environment I should have perhaps clarified that while all people act on outside information, as determinism dictates, Fe as a function, the way it is described, appears to be a function that thinks little for itself and relies entirely upon the opinions of others.

How then could such a function, dictated by others so implicitly, ever look genuine? Or for that matter, even BE genuine? Especially the higher up it is the functional hierarchy. Everyone has the capacity for internal and external processing, but it is the how of those processes that is important...not the what.
 

digesthisickness

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Fe as a function, the way it is described, appears to be a function that thinks little for itself and relies entirely upon the opinions of others.

That sounds disgusting. Happen to have a link to this definition?
 

Eilonwy

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This is not really relevant to what I was getting at. Firstly when I said outside environment I should have perhaps clarified that while all people act on outside information, as determinism dictates, Fe as a function, the way it is described, appears to be a function that thinks little for itself and relies entirely upon the opinions of others.

How then could such a function, dictated by others so implicitly, ever look genuine? Or for that matter, even BE genuine? Especially the higher up it is the functional hierarchy. Everyone has the capacity for internal and external processing, but it is the how of those processes that is important...not the what.
I would say that from the little I know, that, yes, Fe, on it's own, in fact any external function on its own, relies entirely on external information (can that directly translate into "opinions of others"? I'm not sure.). My point is that none of the functions operate in isolation. How can a single, isolated function be judged genuine or non-genuine? The function itself has no right or wrong--it just is. It's wired into our brains. What ends up being judgeable are people's actions and behaviors, which never stem from an isolated function.

ETA: You can't change the way the function works, but you can change the information given to the function, and maybe then change the behavior that results?

ETA: (Sorry for the edits) Is Se disgusting or non-genuine because it relies on external information? Te? Ne? Perhaps the behaviors expressed by those functions can be, but the function itself isn't. But, again, those behaviors are also formed by the other functions and the environment surrounding the person, so how can we deride any one function or any one user of that function, sight unseen?
 
G

Glycerine

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Whoa, people are taking this shit way too seriously. Internet is some serious business. I have read a little of this thread and I bet some of you just have a serious axe to grind. If it weren't for Fe, the blame would be placed elsewhere, I am sure. :D
 

Entropic

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I'd really like to know why Te vs. Ti threads tend to not stimulate the same level of controversy. There's no reason they shouldn't unless feelings themselves are bound to be emotionally invested in by the forum at large.

F is about ethical evaluation in the end, so ultimately discussing F boils down to discussing how people feel in a Jungian sense. T on the other hand, is impersonal. It just becomes logic vs logic.
 

digesthisickness

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Yeah, seems like people don't like being called either selfishly manipulative or sheeple and controlling by people who have never met them and who are (worse in my opinion) basing that opinion on shaky information and doing it in such a way that it's matter-of-fact and indefensible.

Who knew?
 

Zarathustra

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Nice job trolling the forum, [MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION]. :D

But, yes, of course there are reasons to like Fe.

As there are also plenty of reasons to not like it.

Same goes for Fi, Ti, Te, Ne, Si, Ni, and Se.

Not to mention Men, Women, Whites, Asians, Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, Rich People, Poor People, Humans, Animals, Plants, Beings, etc.
 

pinkgraffiti

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out of context: what would be the problem with Ti from a Te user point of view?
Look, Fe is going to occasionally get in Fi's way and irritate it, much like Fi will irritate Fe in its unique vision thingy :shrug:

Personally, I have more of a beef with Ti than Fe, but I admire both and can be quite in awe when they are being used in all their glory.

But yeah, occasionally they frustrate the shit out of me when they get in my business for what I consider no reason, I won't deny that.

That is true for all functions though, not just Fe. There is no reason to hate Fe more, imho.
 

Cellmold

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ETA: (Sorry for the edits) Is Se disgusting or non-genuine because it relies on external information? Te? Ne? Perhaps the behaviors expressed by those functions can be, but the function itself isn't. But, again, those behaviors are also formed by the other functions and the environment surrounding the person, so how can we deride any one function or any one user of that function, sight unseen?

Easily, people do it all the time and it is the main usage of this theory.

That sounds disgusting. Happen to have a link to this definition?

http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Extraverted-Feeling.cfm

http://www.personalitypage.com/ESFJ.html

he ESFJ's value system is defined externally. They usually have very well-formed ideas about the way things should be, and are not shy about expressing these opinions. However, they weigh their values and morals against the world around them, rather than against an internal value system. They may have a strong moral code, but it is defined by the community that they live in, rather than by any strongly felt internal values.

ESFJs who have had the benefit of being raised and surrounded by a strong value system that is ethical and centered around genuine goodness will most likely be the kindest, most generous souls who will gladly give you the shirt off of their back without a second thought. For these individuals, the selfless quality of their personality type is genuine and pure. ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system. They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate other to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ENFJ.html

An ENFJ who has not developed their Feeling side may have difficulty making good decisions, and may rely heavily on other people in decision-making processes. If they have not developed their Intuition, they may not be able to see possibilities, and will judge things too quickly based on established value systems or social rules, without really understanding the current situation. An ENFJ who has not found their place in the world is likely to be extremely sensitive to criticism, and to have the tendency to worry excessively and feel guilty. They are also likely to be very manipulative and controling with others.

http://www.psychological-types.com/TB/E/dev/EF.pdf

http://personalitycafe.com/esfj-art...ion-extraverted-feeling-type-fe-dominant.html

n precisely the same way as extraverted thinking strives to rid itself of subjective influences, extraverted feeling has also to undergo a certain process of differentiation, before it is finally denuded of every subjective [p. 447] trimming. The valuations resulting from the act of feeling either correspond directly with objective values or at least chime in with certain traditional and generally known standards of value. This kind of feeling is very largely responsible for the fact that so many people flock to the theatre, to concerts, or to Church, and what is more, with correctly adjusted positive feelings. Fashions, too, owe their existence to it, and, what is far more valuable, the whole positive and wide-spread support of social, philanthropic, and such like cultural enterprises. In such matters, extraverted feeling proves itself a creative factor. Without this feeling, for instance, a beautiful and harmonious sociability would be unthinkable. So far extraverted feeling is just as beneficent and rationally effective as extraverted thinking. But this salutary effect is lost as soon as the object gains an exaggerated influence. For, when this happens, extraverted feeling draws the personality too much into the object, i.e. the object assimilates the person, whereupon the personal character of the feeling, which constitutes its principal charm, is lost. Feeling then becomes cold, material, untrustworthy. It betrays a secret aim, or at least arouses the suspicion of it in an impartial observer. No longer does it make that welcome and refreshing impression the invariable accompaniment of genuine feeling; instead, one scents a pose or affectation, although the egocentric motive may be entirely unconscious.

There are plenty more in books. And that last link is a direct quote from Jung's work.

Also: http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm
 

Azure Flame

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I'll just give my abrasive yet honest perspective to rebut any Fe hate.

Analogically speaking, I get frustrated with Te because from my perspective its user's are aggressive, oppressive, and don't even listen to what I have to say as a Ti. With that being said, I wonder if Fe and Fi doms get frustrated with one another because they don't listen to each other.

Considering the enormous number of INFP's on this website my first conjecture would be that the amount of Fe hate is based on the number of FP's on the site who have an issue with being "put into a box."

Likewise, from my perspective (an Fe user) I have little sympathy for Fi dominants because, Fe users can feel whatever they want to feel, but usually have the common courtesy to keep it to themselves. From our perspective, we're allowed to feel whatever we want to. That's our right. However Fi dominants usually pick up on internal value judgements of others and thus take offense from these silent judgements and, from our point of view, proactively go out of their way to be offended.

For example, everyone is having fun at a party, and an Fi user gets in a fight, thus ruining the fun atmosphere. I'd rather be listening to the music and dissolving my soul into dreamland euphoria instead of listening to how someone is pissed at someone else. Put aside your differences for a few minutes and have some fun for a change. In a sense, it almost feels as if the party is all about the Fi person and no longer about the party itself. Completely self centered and uncaring of anyone else's feelings. Its abrasive.

All around me there are people who feel negative things about me, and I can sense these things. However, I appreciate that they don't act on these judgements and keep it to themselves. If it become a problems I'll usually do what I can do fix the situation.

Fe dominants are usually trying to do whatever they can to maintain a peaceful atmosphere and keep things friendly. This however, can backfire when the Fe users are too chicken to approach the other person and settle any beef.

As a Ti dom, I'm the unfortunate hybrid of confrontational and harmony seeking in this situation, where I ask questions and try to settle our differences in a direct and curt fashion and get to the root of the problem. I also know plenty of Ti doms who have absolutely no concern for group harmony and make complete asses of themselves in public, (ie: me in high school).
 

digesthisickness

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[MENTION=15392]AffirmitiveAnxiety[/MENTION]

Niiiice! Thank you for taking the time to find all of those. I'll read them now.
 
G

Glycerine

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Yeah, seems like people don't like being called either selfishly manipulative or sheeple and controlling.

Who knew?
Haha yes. It's a great compliment.
Basically Fe is about being an amoral conformist sheep who can't think independently of the collective group's values (the SFJs have it the worst though... it's pretty much implied in the personalitypages profile that the ESFJ is molded ultimately by whatever morals he grew up around. At least the ENFJ has Ni to make them more independent...ick) and are selfless helpful beings.

The FPs (especially NFPs) are basically highly moral and ethical beings with a stubborn selfishness.

Those are the gist of the horribly wonderful stereotypes.
 

digesthisickness

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Haha yes. It's a great compliment.
Basically Fe is about being an amoral conformist sheep who can't think independently of the collective group's values (the SFJs have it the worst though... it's pretty much implied in the personalitypages profile that the ESFJ is molded ultimately by whatever morals he grew up around. At least the ENFJ has Ni to make them more independent...ick) and are selfless helpful beings.

The FPs (especially NFPs) are basically highly moral and ethical beings with a stubborn selfishness.

Those are the gist of the horribly wonderful stereotypes.

:yes:

I love when a person (or couple) in a relationship of Fe + Fi shows up and talks about how they not only managed to not hate the other, but fell in love, and are happily together. Because they bonded over N or S or even N + S! Or any other combo. What are they, freaks? No, they're the ones who noticed the other was more than just one function and are too busy making love sweet sweaty love right now to come on and type gibber-gabber.

I like people who have Fe and hate some too, same with Fi. People are a mixture of their functions and MANY other things. It's why they can be so hard to type sometimes to begin with. Even when typing ourselves. :shrug:
 
G

Glycerine

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Pretty much, except most don't accept them as stereotypes.
I think people sometimes get so caught up in the categorization of others that they forget about individual variance and that all of us have a choice on what we think and what our values are going to be. From what I have seen, Fe doms do tend to put more value in societal standards but they pick those standards that tend to reflect their own value system and emphasize those. If I don't give a shit, I won't bother. That's why some other Fe doms annoy the crap out of me while some don't. Same with Fi-users.
 

Cellmold

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I think people sometimes get so caught up in the categorization of others that they forget about individual variance and that all of us have a choice on what we think and what our values are going to be. From what I have seen, Fe doms do tend to put more value in societal standards but they pick those standards that tend to reflect their own value system and emphasize those. If I don't give a shit, I won't bother. That's why some other Fe doms annoy the crap out of me while some don't. Same with Fi-users.

The shamelessly random nature of it all is the hard work aspect of course. After all we have to hope there can be at least some effort to change....otherwise why would anyone make the effort?
 
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