Cognitive functions and narcissism

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

when she made the big deal of it, did you tell her you don't care about her going into your social turf?

Yes. I grew less annoyed when I realized that it was what she wanted. If she had been clearer about that, I wouldn't have had an issue and would probably have gone along with it without a problem.

It's part of why we broke up, because she got mad at me for not fulfilling her needs, despite the fact that she never told me them. Actually, I was able to guess that certain things I was doing was bothering her, but when I asked her if that was the case, she told me they ''weren't a big deal." I'm sure she thought she was doing something really awesome by not having me worry about it. The simple fact, though, is that "being free from worry" wasn't something I needed. I even told her that, several times.

She thought she was being "empathetic" but she was just ignoring what I was saying in favor of what she likes to have happen. To me, that seems like Fi narcissim. Placing a lot of importance on what you think is "empathetic" and the "right thing to do", and not giving a damn if what people actually want contradicts that.

 

[Society]

Yes. I grew less annoyed when I realized that it was what she wanted. If she had been clearer about that, I wouldn't have had an issue and would probably have gone along with it without a problem.

It's part of why we broke up, because she got mad at me for not fulfilling her needs, despite the fact that she never told me them. Actually, I was able to guess that certain things I was doing was bothering her, but when I asked her if that was the case, she told me they ''weren't a big deal."

...right, that's natural, relationships have many hammer-you-anvil sandwich situations.

not only yours, but in this case quite possibly hers: there are situations where the need has to be met independently of communication in order to be meaningful because it isn't the actual act that's valued but the intent behind it.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I voted Ni because they place so much focus on introspection which naturally leads to a lot of attention directed towards their own self.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

...right, that's natural, relationships have many hammer-you-anvil sandwich situations.

not only yours, but in this case quite possibly hers: there are situations where the need has to be met independently of communication in order to be meaningful because it isn't the actual act that's valued but the intent behind it.

True. It was a couple months ago, and the fact was simply that we weren't compatible, which I've accepted. I don't think she's a terrible person.

At any rate, I'm more interested in knowing Fi plays a role in all of that then in figuring out what went wrong. I've thought enough about the latter already.

 

[Society]

True. It was a couple months ago, and the fact was simply that we weren't compatible, which I've accepted. I don't think she's a terrible person.

At any rate, I'm more interested in knowing Fi plays a role in all of that then in figuring out what went wrong. I've thought enough about the latter already.

i don't think people are capable of processing thoughts without their dominant function playing a role... so, her being an IxFP, yes.

nothing in your description strikes me as narcissistic though, just egocentric. those two can exist independently from one another - you can be narcissistic without being egocentric at all, and vise versa.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

i don't think people are capable of processing thoughts without their dominant function playing a role... so, her being an IxFP, yes.

nothing in your description strikes me as narcissistic though, just egocentric. those two can exist independently from one another - you can be narcissistic without being egocentric at all, and vise versa.

Is the distinction between the two that narcissism is a focus on how you appear to others, and ego-centrism has more to do with focusing on yourself? That is, it considers one's own perceptions, perspectives, ideas, wants and desires to be paramount and unassailable, even in social situations?

I'm not sure about that definition, though, because everyone prioritizes their needs and understanding to some extent, and I don't want to make it seem as though I don't understand that. I think I do understand the distinction you're drawing, though. Perhaps it would be better to work stubbornness into that, somehow.

 

[Salomé]

I said Ne, not because I can see any reason for it but because the most narcissistic person I have ever known was likely to be an ENTP (am pretty sure she is mentally ill). Really, I don't think type has anything to do with this.

Narcissistic ENTPs are not in short supply.

It sounds like Ti more then Fi.

I want to say that Ti would be high up on the list, but what I'm thinking of is probably really Ti getting broadcasted by Fe

I don't think it has anything to do with Fe, if it is type-related at all, it is related to an inferior expression of Ti (hence the possible observed relationship with Fe users). (Auxiliary Ti users can still use it in infantile, inferior ways).

 

[Blackmail!]

Is the distinction between the two that narcissism is a focus on how you appear to others, and ego-centrism has more to do with focusing on yourself? That is, it considers one's own perceptions, perspectives, ideas, wants and desires to be paramount and unassailable, even in social situations?

I'm not sure about that definition, though, because everyone prioritizes their needs and understanding to some extent, and I don't want to make it seem as though I don't understand that. I think I do understand the distinction you're drawing, though. Perhaps it would be better to work stubbornness into that, somehow.

OK. If you want a classic example of Narcissistic-delusional behaviour, let's look at Marmotini.
Do you remember when she said that all males here have a special mission to stop her talking? (Not anybody, only HER)
This is narcissism. Narcissism appears when you consider yourself to be the exclusive center of attraction of everybody, when you consider that implicitely, you're the center of the world and nothing else matters.
And the more you try to explain her that you don't care or give a damn of what she thinks (and that she is free to say anything she wants), the less she will understand it, and the more she will accuse you of stalking her.

The behaviour you described, on the other hand, rather looks like egocentrism, just like Mane pointed.

 

[Society]

I don't think it has anything to do with Fe, if it is type-related at all, it is related to an inferior expression of Ti (hence the possible observed relationship with Fe users). (Auxiliary Ti users can still use it in infantile, inferior ways).

i don't know - i've known (well, used to game & talk with) at least one recovered but very troubled InTP who suffered from it with no short supply when he was younger. he was going to do a shooting in his school, got everything organized - had the gun ready - and in the last moment caved in on himself and called for help.

the way he talks about it, from the initial description it sounds like he went to a hellish high school where everyone's a monster, until you pay attention to one important detail: they didn't actually do anything. he didn't know how to join in socially, he took it to be all about him, took it as rejection which had the implication of a critique in it, a.k.a. that something's wrong with him, and he just accumulated it until he reached the infamous "i'll show them" mentality... this screams to me of narcissistic injury.

i am not a 100% about his perceiving func being Ne btw (with IxTP/ENTP interaction it's hard to tell because you are nearly take the functions as social roles), but he is definitely introverted and definitely a TP.

p.s.
and yes ofcourse this is anecdotal, it's what we have to work with.

 

[Salomé]

OK. If you want a classic example of Narcissistic-delusional behaviour, let's look at Marmotini.
Do you remember when she said that all males here have a special mission to stop her talking? (Not anybody, only HER)
This is narcissism. Narcissism appears when you consider yourself to be the exclusive center of attraction of everybody, when you consider that implicitely, you're the center of the world and nothing else matters.
And the more you try to explain her that you don't care or give a damn of what she thinks (and that she is free to say anything she wants), the less she will understand it, and the more she will accuse you of stalking her.

The behaviour you described, on the other hand, rather looks like egocentrism, just like Mane pointed.

I don't think someone making a hyperbolic statement is grounds for a diagnosis of NPD. As such, your own statement is pure hyperbole. I guess that means the chances of either of you being a narcissist are about even...although...see below.
Also," it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you."
Marm gets ganged up on by males on this forum. This is fact.

i don't know - i've known (well, used to game & talk with) at least one recovered but very troubled InTP who suffered from it with no short supply when he was younger. .

No one said damaged INTPs couldn't be narcissists.
Ti can be unhealthy, even when it's dominant.

The predominant feature of narcissism is a lack of empathy. As such, it's more likely to afflict people who score low on feely functions. Supporting this, 75% of people diagnosed NPD are male.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I suppose I still don't understand how egocentrism is different, though.

Also, I don't want the thread to get derailed, because I do want to understand how cognitive functions relate to narcissism/egocentrism.

I don't deny that Ti isn't capable of narcissism. Without making an effort to use Ne, it's definitely possible for INTPs to dismiss valid points of view just because they don't fit into their framework. This is probably what's going on when we call something "stupid" that actually isn't.

 

[Salomé]

Yes. I grew less annoyed when I realized that it was what she wanted. If she had been clearer about that, I wouldn't have had an issue and would probably have gone along with it without a problem.

It's part of why we broke up, because she got mad at me for not fulfilling her needs, despite the fact that she never told me them. Actually, I was able to guess that certain things I was doing was bothering her, but when I asked her if that was the case, she told me they ''weren't a big deal." I'm sure she thought she was doing something really awesome by not having me worry about it. The simple fact, though, is that "being free from worry" wasn't something I needed. I even told her that, several times.

She thought she was being "empathetic" but she was just ignoring what I was saying in favor of what she likes to have happen. To me, that seems like Fi narcissim. Placing a lot of importance on what you think is "empathetic" and the "right thing to do", and not giving a damn if what people actually want contradicts that.

That honestly sounds more characteristic of Fe than Fi.

A narcissist would not respect your territory. She wouldn't even acknowledge that you had one. For the narcissist what's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine.

I think you and your girlfriend just had incompatible standards of personal space. And you made no effort to understand her priorities it seems (because they were not your own). As such, your behaviour was (arguably) more "narcissistic" than hers. What she did was wrongly project some of her own needs onto you and fail to communicate these explicitly as her own. Again, I see this more often in Fe users than Fi.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That honestly sounds more characteristic of Fe than Fi.

A narcissist would not respect your territory. She wouldn't even acknowledge that you had one. For the narcissist what's mine is mine and what's yours is also mine.

I think you and your girlfriend just had incompatible standards of personal space. And you made no effort to understand her priorities it seems (because they were not your own). As such, your behaviour was (arguably) more "narcissistic" than hers. What she did was wrongly project some of her own needs onto you and fail to communicate these explicitly as her own. Again, I see this more often in Fe users than Fi.

True. In that particular instance, it was somewhat self-centered. I'll admit that I didn't put a lot of thought into what her reaction would be.

She was supposedly an ESFP. I definitely think there was Fi rather than Fe. She had strong emphasis on positivity and optimism (which i associate more with Fi). She also made eccentric fashion statements (she was sort of gothish) (which again, seems more Fi to me).

 

[Salomé]

She was supposedly an ESFP. I definitely think there was Fi rather than Fe. She had strong emphasis on positivity and optimism (which i associate more with Fi). She also made eccentric fashion statements (she was sort of gothish) (which again, seems more Fi to me).

Fi can have quite a negative tone. Fi is really more about authenticity and congruity of feeling. A relentless emphasis on positivity and optimism or "putting a brave face on" irrespective of circumstance is more of a Fe thing, I'd say. Here outward appearances are more important than inner resonance.

I guess if she was the only goth in her crowd you might characterise that as eccentric, otherwise it can just as easily be described as fitting in.

I guess all of this is moot. I can only say that I have found it to be characteristic of Fe-doms (esp. Type 2s) to do 'unto you what they would have done unto them'. I.e. they mix up their own needs with yours and vice versa, or they think there is only one "correct" way of treating anther person: the way they want to be treated. A Fi-Dom is much more likely to understand and emphasise individual differences in relationships, less likely to conflate your issues with their own.

Some of this is described in a brilliant book (series of essays) called "Pathological Altruism". While altruistic behaviours are ostensibly the opposite of narcissistic ones, they can have similarly destructive effects.

 

[Blackmail!]

I don't think someone making a hyperbolic statement is grounds for a diagnosis of NPD. As such, your own statement is pure hyperbole. I guess that means the chances of either of you being a narcissist are about even...although...see below.

Do I look delusional in any possible way? Do you think that I'm pretending that I'm the exclusive focus of attention of everybody here in this forum (especially females)?

Also," it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you."
Marm gets ganged up on by males on this forum. This is fact.

No this is not. This accusation is laughable. She attacks males at random, and even accuses the most liberal, the most obviously pro-feminist of them to be "secretly sexists". And when some of them (slowly) react and wonder what she's doing, she accuses them to gang up on her. Just check the chain of causality.

I think she should marry Zarathustra. The two are very similar, somehow. HPD+NPD forever!

The predominant feature of narcissism is a lack of empathy.

It depends which variant of NPD. But yes, it is related with a damaged or unhealthy sense of empathy.

As such, it's more likely to afflict people who score low on feely functions.

This is your assumption.

For instance HPD (Histrionic Personality disorder) is very close to NPD -it is most of the time considered as a subtype of NPD-, and yet, most persons diagnosed with HPD usually have very good social skills.

Supporting this, 75% of people diagnosed NPD are male.

And this is false. According to what I've read so far, the real numbers are 60/40.
And in HPD, the two third are females.

You're manipulating us. Why?

 

[Society]

I don't think someone making a hyperbolic statement is grounds for a diagnosis of NPD. As such, your own statement is pure hyperbole. I guess that means the chances of either of you being a narcissist are about even...although...see below.
Also," it's not paranoia when they really are out to get you."
Marm gets ganged up on by males on this forum. This is fact.

No one said damaged INTPs couldn't be narcissists.
Ti can be unhealthy, even when it's dominant.

The predominant feature of narcissism is a lack of empathy. As such, it's more likely to afflict people who score low on feely functions. Supporting this, 75% of people diagnosed NPD are male.

that's currently under debate:

Demographics

DSM-IV-TR states that 2% to 16% of the clinical population and slightly less than 1% of the general population of the United States suffers from NPD. Between 50% and 75% of those diagnosed with NPD are males. Little is known about the prevalence of NPD across racial and ethnic groups.

Gender issues

The high preponderance of male patients in studies of narcissism has prompted researchers to explore the effects of gender roles on this particular personality disorder. Some have speculated that the gender imbalance in NPD results from society's disapproval of self-centered and exploitative behavior in women, who are typically socialized to nurture, please, and generally focus their attention on others. Others have remarked that the imbalance is more apparent than real, and that it reflects a basically sexist definition of narcissism. These researchers suggest that definitions of the disorder should be rewritten in future editions of DSM to account for ways in which narcissistic personality traits manifest differently in men and in women.

Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Kau-Nu/Narcissistic-personality-disorder.html#ixzz2SjY2KfXS

either way - Fe & Ti do generally come together, so in both cases you are talking about the exact same people...
which brings me to the point: everyone (myself included) who so far said it is Fe/Ti is an Fe-Ti user...

is it really plausible that the Fi-Te half of the population is immune to NPD?

 

[Blackmail!]

that's currently under debate:

Demographics

DSM-IV-TR states that 2% to 16% of the clinical population and slightly less than 1% of the general population of the United States suffers from NPD. Between 50% and 75% of those diagnosed with NPD are males. Little is known about the prevalence of NPD across racial and ethnic groups.

Gender issues

The high preponderance of male patients in studies of narcissism has prompted researchers to explore the effects of gender roles on this particular personality disorder. Some have speculated that the gender imbalance in NPD results from society's disapproval of self-centered and exploitative behavior in women, who are typically socialized to nurture, please, and generally focus their attention on others. Others have remarked that the imbalance is more apparent than real, and that it reflects a basically sexist definition of narcissism. These researchers suggest that definitions of the disorder should be rewritten in future editions of DSM to account for ways in which narcissistic personality traits manifest differently in men and in women.

Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Kau-Nu/Narcissistic-personality-disorder.html#ixzz2SjY2KfXS

Your link is more than 12 years old (2001).

Here is a more recent study (2008):

"Prevalence of lifetime NPD was 6.2%, with rates greater for men (7.7%) than for women (4.8%). NPD was significantly more prevalent among black men and women and Hispanic women, younger adults, and separated/divorced/widowed and never married adults. NPD was associated with mental disability among men but not women. High co-occurrence rates of substance use, mood, and anxiety disorders and other personality disorders were observed. With additional comorbidity controlled for, associations with bipolar I disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and schizotypal and borderline personality disorders remained significant, but weakened, among men and women. Similar associations were observed between NPD and specific phobia, generalized anxiety disorder, and bipolar II disorder among women and between NPD and alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, drug dependence, and histrionic and obsessive-compulsive personality disorders among men. Dysthymic disorder was significantly and negatively associated with NPD."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18557663

That makes 61% males, and 39% females.

 

[Society]

Your link is more than 12 years old (2001).

Here is a more recent study (2008):

"Prevalence of lifetime NPD was 6.2%, with rates greater for men (7.7%) than for women (4.8%). NPD was significantly more prevalent among black men and women and Hispanic women, younger adults, and separated/divorced/widowed and never married adults. NPD was associated with mental disability among men but not women. High co-occurrence rates of substance use, mood, and anxiety disorders and other personality disorders were observed. With additional comorbidity controlled for, associations with bipolar I disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and schizotypal and borderline personality disorders remained significant, but weakened, among men and women. Similar associations were observed between NPD and specific phobia, generalized anxiety disorder, and bipolar II disorder among women and between NPD and alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, drug dependence, and histrionic and obsessive-compulsive personality disorders among men. Dysthymic disorder was significantly and negatively associated with NPD."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18557663

That makes 61% males, and 39% females.

good finding. and since most male Ti-Fe users are TPs rather then FJs, their could be a correlation. ofcourse in the same time for all we know it can turn out that they are all exceptions to their male-T/female-F statics. makes you wish there was some MBTI/NPD statistics, doesn't it?

 

[Stanton Moore]

I don't believe that narcissism has anything to do with Jung or 'cognitive functions'.
But it's not surprising that someone here would want to shoe horn them together.
There is much more to the world and the mind than JCF. They do not subsume everything, or anything really.
Carry on.

 

[Salomé]

Do I look delusional in any possible way? Do you think that I'm pretending that I'm the exclusive focus of attention of everybody here in this forum (especially females)?

With that avatar?

No this is not. This accusation is laughable. She attacks males at random, and even accuse the most liberal, the most obviously pro-feminist of them to be "secretly sexists". And when some of them (slowly) react and wonder what she's doing, she accuses them to gang up on her. Just check the chain of causality.

I think she should marry Zarathustra. The two are very similar, somehow. HPD+NPD forever!

I don't really want to involve myself in personal attacks of this nature. I know Marm doesn't appreciate being "diagnosed" on the forum and think she's entitled not to be scrutinised in that way.

You're manipulating us. Why?

Manipulating you into what, exactly?
You are sounding a little paranoid there, Chief.

I genuinely think Ts are likely to be more prone to NPD. I think Fs are more likely to be BPD or HPD, which, like you say, disproportionately affect women. This ties in with my anecdotal experience, and given that males are more likely to be T and females F, it fits with your data too.