Differences between ENTJs and ESTJs

[Faceless Beauty]

I am going to go against the stream here and say that I don't think ENTJs and ESTJs are that much different at all. Why should they be? They are both Te dominants and thus they are the most oriented towards Te data in terms of cognition. Whatever quirks that may be different between them are probably caused more by say, enneagram differences than Ni versus Si. I think in particular, Ni and Si are going to operate in the sense that the ENTJ will be more "future-oriented" due to Ni perception and thus planning towards the future, whereas I think an ESTJ is going to be more focused on the concrete here and now. Ultimately the Ni and Si should rather just be seen as N and S I think. an ENTJ is more oriented towards the intuitive world and an ESTJ the sensation world.

Like what really just seems to separate ExTJs as a whole is how mature they are and how much they have learn to accept/develop inferior Fi. An ExTJ is going to be a dick no matter if ENTJ or ESTJ if the inferior Fi is extremely rejected.

No one here has denied that ESTJ and ENTJ are similar, seeing as both obviously use Te as the main process in their cognition. However that isn't the purpose of this thread. While I agree that enneagram plays a role, Ni and Si do make a difference, even if you think it's little. Keep in mind that every ESTJ might be heavy in Si or have developed or underdeveloped tertiary Ne, and the same could apply in regards to the Ni and Se of the ENTJ. Just saying that they are so similar and blatantly ignoring this when discerning differences between the two is a bit erroneous, no?

As for ExTJs being "dicks" because the are out of touch with Fi, I don't think that is necessarily true seeing as developing Fi or having Fi higher up in the stack of functional preferences does not make someone a dick or not.

 

[violet_crown]

So what do you think of ENTJs as often being characterised as strategisers? Is it simply a more dynamic and emergent form of strategising, rather than an attempt to lock everything down beforehand?

In the traditional, military definition of the word, strategy makes reference to the actualization of political ends by way of military action. I think that understanding of strategy is fairly indicative of the ENTJ mindset. We instinctively translate high-level concepts into moving parts, and the scope of those concepts can be vast with implications that reach far into the future. Not to say that we're tethered to the present. ENTJ's are quite talented at saying they want themselves/their organizations/their [insert sphere of influence] to be in x position in y time in order to effect z outcome. We can set those conditions and plan backwards to orchestrate every single aspect of what would have to be in place to make that thing possible. The only type that's better at that sorta strategic calculation is INTJs, and frankly we've got 'em beat when it comes to the execution part. The distinction between us and our introverted cousins is that openness I described gives us a greater strength with improvisation, which makes us more competent operators when we're in motion. INTJs, otoh, aren't as strong of improvisers, but compensate for that by being absolute motherfuckers when it comes to what I think of as nonlinear strategy. Like, they'll take twice the time to develop a plan, but once they do each action is optimized to hit not only the primary objective but connected sub-objectives such that each step they take benefits the overall plan no matter what its outcome. When they really have a gift for it, the intricacy and beauty of an INTJs design can be awe-inspiring. It's art, really. Thankfully, though, most of them get off on the planning in and of itself and never actually get around to the actual implementation. Our methods may not be so exquisite, but damned if we don't get results.

So you want to understand the fundamentals enough to develop a theory that you can then apply to relevant situations and respond accordingly?

Correct.

Do you do this by sifting through things in your head, though trial and error, or do you get it somehow from interaction with others?

Mmm. All of the above. I go through the information, generate a model of how I think something will play out, then I immediately set about testing it. I re-calibrate based on empirical data, which can either be collected from my own experience or that of someone I'm running the info by, then I try again. In a static sense, Te is about objective definitions. I mentioned the essentializing effect of Te+Ni in the other post. Our most familiar process is to see how few criteria an object must meet in order for it to be classified as that object. For instance: how simple can you make a clock such that it fulfills the definition of an object which tells time? Put in other words, functionality obsesses us. We're constantly asking of everything, "Yes, but does it work?" That question only arises because we're constantly experimenting with those new ideas, methods and approaches. I feel driven to attempt the things that no one's ever tried just for the thrill of creating something that's never been seen and will last well after I'm gone.

ESTJs, otoh, don't seem as obsessed with the trailblazing aspect. I think creativity for them is that Ne trick of turning a familiar concept on its head. But it's not about expanding as it is holding the line and maintaining the stability of the existing structure.

 

[Mal12345]

No one here has denied that ESTJ and ENTJ are similar, seeing as both obviously use Te as the main process in their cognition. However that isn't the purpose of this thread. While I agree that enneagram plays a role, Ni and Si do make a difference, even if you think it's little. Keep in mind that every ESTJ might be heavy in Si or have developed or underdeveloped tertiary Ne, and the same could apply in regards to the Ni and Se of the ENTJ. Just saying that they are so similar and blatantly ignoring this when discerning differences between the two is a bit erroneous, no?

As for ExTJs being "dicks" because the are out of touch with Fi, I don't think that is necessarily true seeing as developing Fi or having Fi higher up in the stack of functional preferences does not make someone a dick or not.

That a certain type or types is a "dick" is just plain old-fashioned stereotyping, don't you agree?

 

[Thalassa]

Rush Limbaugh -
NT - "As the knowledge-seeking temperament, Rationals trust reason implicitly. They rely on objective observations and factual analysis in any given situation. They seek a logical argument as a basis for action. As strategists, Rationals strive to gain as much information as possible, applying what they learn to develop long-term plans and the steps for achieving them. They are characterized by a tough-minded personal style, tending to pursue either power or understanding. They are often strong-willed, ambitious, intelligent, and self-determined. Subjective thoughts and emotion have no place in the decision-making process of a Rational. Driven to excel, they work hard to achieve their goals, and they do well where they can take control or work independently on a task."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_temperament

Bill O'Reilly -
"As the security-seeking temperament, Guardians are practical and frugal types. They "share certain core values, among them the belief in a strong work ethic, the need for people and institutions to be responsible, the importance of following the rules and of serving one's community."[2] Guardians value experience, and they seek a tangible return on their investments. Believing in common sense, they are not attracted to idle speculation. They are the glue of civilization, maintaining and nurturing institutions that have been established by the dint of hard work. They tend to be conventional and cooperative in their work, wanting to make sure everybody gets what they deserve, no more and no less. They follow the rules and conventions of their cohort or group and expect others to as well."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament

Bill O'Reilly is so much more reasonable than Rush Limbaugh.

I think if O'Reilly were really an ESTJ he wouldn't have such a divided, moderate stance and be able to work on Fox News. There aren't many conservatives who support gun control and the environment openly, he doesn't even represent the Si schema of the current conservative party, he's actually listed as Independent.

O'Reilly seems very NT to me.

Limbaugh seems like someone who actually is using a lot of sensing and emotion. I think ESTP might be the best way to go for him...emphasis on the Se and Fe, sometimes downplaying the Ti. He mocks and makes fun of people socially in the same manner that reminds me of immature ENTPs, which is something an unhealthy (or attention seeking) ESTP could also do at his age.

 

[Eric B]

ESTJ Choleric-Melancholic (EST-expressive, directive; SJ- cooperative, structure focused)
ENTJ Choleric-Choleric (ENJ-expressive, directive; NT-pragmatic, structure focused)

So looking at it temperamentally, they differ between cooperative/pragmatic. They are both fully "task-focused (directive+structure), but as cooperative/pragmatic sort of parallels reserved vs expressive (I/E), the ESTJ, while expressive and aggressive on the surface, will have a bit more of a reservation about things. He will be more "Guardian" thus preferring to follow the dictates of a "concrete structure" such as the organization, where the ENTJ will be totally aggressive (perhaps in taking action even moreso than being loud and in your face all the time), and more willing to buck any system and follow his own plans. Hence, ESTJ as "Supervisor", and ENTJ as "Fieldmarshall".

As for Limbaugh, I never completely thought on what his type was. I figured some "In Charge" type (EST/ENJ), but usually can't stand to listen to him long enough to get the rest of his type.
But just recently, I found these videos of him ranting about black people and the virtue of America being denied: http://erictb.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/defining-the-race-issue-what-should-we-want/#comment-625 and I can see tertiary ("Puer") Se! (i.e. it would make sense, though I'm not saying I'm absolutely sure). So yeah, ENTJ would certainly seem a good guess, and somewhat like Hitler, you can't always go by a stereotype of NT always being "rational" and using "reason". He is being a very classic, "full Choleric" here, and would fit tertiary Se and inferior Fi.

 

[RDF]

In the traditional, military definition of the word, strategy makes reference to the actualization of political ends by way of military action. I think that understanding of strategy is fairly indicative of the ENTJ mindset. [...]

Great post on the workings of the ENTJ mind. I’m going to bookmark it for future reference.

FWIW, your post reminds me of an old post in YWIR’s blog where she also talked about thinking in terms of military strategizing: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...7616&page=43&p=1588738&viewfull=1#post1588738

If I recall, she used to self-identify as ENTJ as well.

 

[HongDou]

I'll just post what I've seen from personal experience. My ESTJ friend is named Alexa and my ENTJ friend is named Julia.

Humor: Alexa loves to "tease" and make fun of people by exaggerating anything they do she sees as weird. She moves around a lot of the time to emphasize the impact of it. Julia uses sarcasm and wit to point out the flaws in what's presented to her. She's not very physical but uses the irony in her words to get the humor across.
Anger: Alexa uses all the problems she's had with you as evidence for justifying her anger. Julia breaks down the current problem she has with you to justify her anger.
Fashion: Alexa is very concerned with fashion and started her own fashion club at school. She loves looking good and is quick to point out what she sees wrong in people's outfits. Julia will compliment others' clothes but isn't really concerned with fashion. She doesn't care how she presents herself and wears what she likes.
Friends: Alexa's group of close friends (which I am included in) are more extraverted and "feminine". We're all dramatic, outgoing people. Julia's friends are either more introverted or borderline. They're all calm, amiable people.
Showing Affection: Alexa is very touchy. She'll run up to you and give you a hug or she'll sit down and cuddle up next to you. Julia is the opposite of touchy and uses quick, small motions while slipping across an "aww" or "love you, too."

I don't know how much of this relates to type, but these are the differences I've seen IRL.

 

[The Great One]

1. ENTJ's are often more open-minded than ESTJ's. I find that many ESTJ's are set in their ways, and it is often hard to get them to change them.

2. ENTJ's are often better at coming up with systems from scratch where as ESTJ's often want to follow someone else's system.

3. When working for a company ESTJ's are very likely to abide by rules and regulations and to follow those regulations, where as the ENTJ is not as concerned with other's rules and regulations. ENTJ's pretty much make their own rules and regulations, but just as the ESTJ does. However, the ENTJ often views a law as set in stone, and doesn't really see grey areas for reasons to break laws just as the ESTJ.

4. ENTJ's are often into abstract subjects like psychology, philosophy, science, etc.

5. ENTJ's aren't as detail oriented as the ESTJ.

 

[Faceless Beauty]

That a certain type or types is a "dick" is just plain old-fashioned stereotyping, don't you agree?

Yep. Anyone can be a dick. It's not a exclusive to a type. They just have different ways that they act dickish is all.

 

[violet_crown]

Great post on the workings of the ENTJ mind. I’m going to bookmark it for future reference.

FWIW, your post reminds me of an old post in YWIR’s blog where she also talked about thinking in terms of military strategizing: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...7616&page=43&p=1588738&viewfull=1#post1588738

If I recall, she used to self-identify as ENTJ as well.

Thanks.

[MENTION=9602]YWIR[/MENTION] and I are virtually identical type-wise except for slight variation in enneagram wing (she's 8w7, while I'm w9) and stacking (she's sp-sx, while I'm sx-sp). Dealing with Dee feels like talking to a mirror most of the time, so the little differences fascinate. She's basically me if I were less emo, more pragmatic and had an absolutely fantastic rack. I look up to her quite a bit.

 

[RaptorWizard]

ESTJs serve the law, and ENTJs are the law!

 

[EJCC]

I totally agree with everything [MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION] has said. Just listen to her, folks!

Bill O'Reilly is so much more reasonable than Rush Limbaugh.

I think if O'Reilly were really an ESTJ he wouldn't have such a divided, moderate stance and be able to work on Fox News. There aren't many conservatives who support gun control and the environment openly, he doesn't even represent the Si schema of the current conservative party, he's actually listed as Independent.

O'Reilly seems very NT to me.

I don't buy the "he's reasonable and moderate, so he can't be ESTJ" argument. I could buy any number of others, but not that one.

ESTJs serve the law, and ENTJs are the law!

LAWWWWWW.

 

[violet_crown]

I totally agree with everything [MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION] has said. Just listen to her, folks!

Like being endorsed by a Kennedy.

 

[Mal12345]

ESTJs serve the law, and ENTJs are the law!

ESTJs drive Fords, ENTJs drive Priuses.

 

[EJCC]

Like being endorsed by a Kennedy.

Ask not what your ENTJ can do for you...

 

[StephMC]

All of the ENTJs I know have pretty apparent Se when they're not in work mode (so if you only see them in work mode, you may never see it). They can almost look ESTP'ish at times -- something probably a little difficult to confuse an ESTJ for. When I go hang out with my ENTJ friend, he's all about bungee jumping off bridges, breaking into park reserves in the middle of the night, and crazy drinking contests. He usually out-SP's me, in fact. If I could sum of one ENTJ friend in particular, he's just excessive -- works hard, plays hard. When he picks up a new idea, theory, way of thinking, he just goes all out... kind of like an ENTP, but just more aggressively and confidently.

ESTJs who use their Ne a moderate amount, on the other hand, have come off as mild conspiracy theorists or sometimes as very spiritual/hippy. One ESTJ I know in particular was pretty hard to type because he was anti-government, conspiracy theorist, health nut, vegan. Maybe not your typical ESTJ, but definitely Te - Si - Ne.

 

[Mal12345]

All of the ENTJs I know have pretty apparent Se when they're not in work mode (so if you only see them in work mode, you may never see it). They can almost look ESTP'ish at times -- something probably a little difficult to confuse an ESTJ for. When I go hang out with my ENTJ friend, he's all about bungee jumping off bridges, breaking into park reserves in the middle of the night, and crazy drinking contests. He usually out-SP's me, in fact. If I could sum of one ENTJ friend in particular, he's just excessive -- works hard, plays hard. When he picks up a new idea, theory, way of thinking, he just goes all out... kind of like an ENTP, but just more aggressively and confidently.

ESTJs who use their Ne a moderate amount, on the other hand, have come off as mild conspiracy theorists or sometimes as very spiritual/hippy. One ESTJ I know in particular was pretty hard to type because he was anti-government, conspiracy theorist, health nut, vegan. Maybe not your typical ESTJ, but definitely Te - Si - Ne.

Don't let [MENTION=16405]LeaT[/MENTION] catch you mentioning anything Keirseyan. SP indeed...

 

[Entropic]

No one here has denied that ESTJ and ENTJ are similar, seeing as both obviously use Te as the main process in their cognition. However that isn't the purpose of this thread. While I agree that enneagram plays a role, Ni and Si do make a difference, even if you think it's little. Keep in mind that every ESTJ might be heavy in Si or have developed or underdeveloped tertiary Ne, and the same could apply in regards to the Ni and Se of the ENTJ. Just saying that they are so similar and blatantly ignoring this when discerning differences between the two is a bit erroneous, no?

As for ExTJs being "dicks" because the are out of touch with Fi, I don't think that is necessarily true seeing as developing Fi or having Fi higher up in the stack of functional preferences does not make someone a dick or not.

If you understood the point I was making you'd under that I wasn't implying lack of differences but that the differences aren't as great as postulated in this thread as is evident when you read the responses by other posters claiming how ENTJs are this and ESTJs are that.

As for being dicks, obviously any type can be but the question is more, what kind of dick? Inferior Fi will appear a certain way specific to being in the inferior position, creating a very specific way of being dickish. Also, it was never my intention to claim that inferior Fi is always going to make a person a dick.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

All of the ENTJs I know have pretty apparent Se when they're not in work mode (so if you only see them in work mode, you may never see it). They can almost look ESTP'ish at times -- something probably a little difficult to confuse an ESTJ for. When I go hang out with my ENTJ friend, he's all about bungee jumping off bridges, breaking into park reserves in the middle of the night, and crazy drinking contests. He usually out-SP's me, in fact. If I could sum of one ENTJ friend in particular, he's just excessive -- works hard, plays hard. When he picks up a new idea, theory, way of thinking, he just goes all out... kind of like an ENTP, but just more aggressively and confidently.

ESTJs who use their Ne a moderate amount, on the other hand, have come off as mild conspiracy theorists or sometimes as very spiritual/hippy. One ESTJ I know in particular was pretty hard to type because he was anti-government, conspiracy theorist, health nut, vegan. Maybe not your typical ESTJ, but definitely Te - Si - Ne.

Yeah. This is my experience with ENTJs too.

 

[Entropic]

The term "stereotype" applies to people, not to personality portraits.

Portraits are meant to describe people so thus, they are applied to people, meaning then that according to your definition as proposed in the quote portraits can be stereotype.