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The differences between the MBTI and Jung

Kalach

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(a) Godwin's Law.

(b) ad hominem

also

(c) ad hominem


Your preference for evil is growing.
 

INTP

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During the reign of the Third Reich, Carl Gustav Jung assumed the Presidency of the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany.

Jung's support of the Nazis could not be clearer, and explains why the crypto-fascists find him so fascinating, even to the point of quoting him in their signature.

nice trolling. even tho he worked in country invaded by the nazis, his aim was to have at least some form of psychotherapy(as he saw that the state was neglecting therapy and it was in a danger of being totally disregarded if someone doesent do the job regardless of maybe having their reputation stained) for the citizens who were suffering greatly from the nazi occupation. he didnt support the nazis, he was only helping people who were suffering inside a country invaded by the nazis..
 

Mole

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Your preference for evil is growing.

My preference is for the lesser of two evils.

And quite a bit of life is choosing between two evils. And the mensch will choose the lesser, while the idealist can't tell the difference.
 

Mole

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Reich Marshal Göring and Jung

nice trolling. even tho he worked in country invaded by the nazis, his aim was to have at least some form of psychotherapy(as he saw that the state was neglecting therapy and it was in a danger of being totally disregarded if someone doesent do the job regardless of maybe having their reputation stained) for the citizens who were suffering greatly from the nazi occupation. he didnt support the nazis, he was only helping people who were suffering inside a country invaded by the nazis..

Carl Jung was under the control of Hermann Wilhelm Göring, Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich.

And under Reich Marshal Göring's orders, Carl Jung as President of the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany, wrote that every practising psychotherapist would adopt Adolf Hitler's, "Mein Kampf", as a basic reference.
 

Entropic

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This is wrong. They should not be thought of as separate things. Please do read more books. I think it will help to build out your perspectives

Why not?
It's a method to evaluate someone's type - specifically Jungian type. They attempted to operationalize a solution that would allow you to assess your type and it works pretty well. Given the rigor the Step II assessment has along with the assistance of a professional for evaluation, I'd say it's more than a bit better than any of the free tests that I am aware of. Nardi's isn't really very good either. Some of the stuff behind the system (i.e. the functions you so dearly are interested in) are clearly described in the MBTI Step II manual and serve as the foundation for the system. They were always there behind the scenes but people didn't know they were there. Functions got re-popularized when this came out

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188727801X/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How does it operationalize it well in your opinion, then? Also, I'm fully aware that the functions are mentioned in Gifts Differing for example, and that Myers-Briggs built on the functions, but then for example please explain the discrepancy between how the MBTI understands I/E and how Jung understands I/E.
It clarifies and enriches. It doesn't create a new system because the MBTI was completely based on it already. An assessment methodology does not aways tie so directly to the underlying theory. All it needs to do is work. Who cares if they use facets. MBTI Step II should give you your "jungian" type if you want to call it that.

How does it clarify and enrich?
 

Entropic

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I think the meaning of subjectivity is very interesting.

It starts with play, for the purpose of play in children is to learn the difference between imagination and reality, or we might say, the difference between subjectivity and objectivity.

It starts with play and moves onto the scientific method which is a way of determining what is fact and what is speculation, or we might say, what is subjective and what is objective.

It starts with play, moves into the scientific method, and onto the suspension of disbelief which makes art, religion, poetry and movies possible.

It starts with play, and moves onto the scientific method, the onto the suspension of disbelief, but doesn't stop there. From there we move into inter-subjectivity.

Inter-subjectivity allows us to share our minds and makes us the most powerful animal on the planet.

It doesn't answer the question how subjectivity affects your personal reasoning. I am questioning your personal ability to objectivity reason, as has already been clarified, that attacking Jung and claiming his theory is invalid because it's built on his subjective understanding of the world is a hypocritical statement since you are doing exactly the same thing. So again, how can we know that your reasoning process and understanding of Jung, the world, and thus also the psyche, is more objective than Jung's and simply not mere subjective conjecture?
 

INTP

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Carl Jung was under the control of Hermann Wilhelm Göring, Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich.

And under Reich Marshal Göring's orders, Carl Jung as President of the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany, wrote that every practising psychotherapist would adopt Adolf Hitler's, "Mein Kampf", as a basic reference.

so he lied to them that he was in their camp so that he could help people under nazi control. quite noble act since he would most likely got himself killed if he got caught
 

Eric B

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MBTI aimed to focus on interpersonal interactions (including team building, etc), and hence, J/P as "extraverted function" (rather than dominant) came in handy.
It also made temperament theory mappable to it. Both conative (Keirsey) as well as the Interaction Styles (affective), contain different levels of behavior-focused traits that can explain some of the anomalies of comparing MBTI to Jung.

Like if an extravert seems to withdraw from people, there is also the classic temperament dimension of people vs task, which is represented through both the affective "directing/informing" and the conative "structure/motive". Those are both traits that are really part of a larger set of behavioral tendencies, and the task focused person (directive and/or structure) will approach people for some task-oriented goal, and not so much for socialization. When there is no such goal or he can meet it some other way than direct socialization, he may withdraw. An extravert can also be "cooperative" (as opposed to "pragmatic"), which will also make him a bit slower to approach others in certain instances.
(I also believe there's a third area of temperament not covered by type, that can influence the behavior).

In the extended Jungian theory of John Beebe, "Persona" is an archetypal complex connected with the dominant function. An Fi dominant will not have a Ti "persona".
An Fi dom. can be in Te "inferior grip" (Quenk), Fi "right brain alternative" (Thomson) or "Demonic Personality Complex (Beebe), but these will not shape his Persona to make him look like a Ti dom. These instances are about stress, when the ego (and its Persona) are not able to achieve its goals through its dominant perspective.
 
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highlander

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How does it operationalize it well in your opinion, then?

Did you take Step 2? Do you know of a better assessment?

A lot of what Jung describes is focused on the unconscious life of a person which is not easily self reported or assessed.

but then for example please explain the discrepancy between how the MBTI understands I/E and how Jung understands I/E.

Are you referring to what's described in books like Type Talk, in Gifts Differing or what you read on posts in an Internet forum? There was a lot of stuff published for a while there that attempted to dumb things down for the masses and contained erroneous or misleading information.

How does it clarify and enrich?

The book I mentioned was the first one that was published that explained the functions in concise and plain English. This led to other things. Last time I checked, it was out of print though you can find used ones.
 

Mole

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so he lied to them that he was in their camp so that he could help people under nazi control. quite noble act since he would most likely got himself killed if he got caught

I know you would like to believe this as you are a devotee of Carl Jung, but Carl Jung, freely and willingly and without coercion, chose to serve Reich Marshal Göring. And as President the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany he told every German psychotherapist to use Adolf Hitler's, "Mein Kampf", as a basic reference.

This led to the exile, torure and death of millions including Jews like Sigmund Freud and his family.

I can't help feeling that the price of being a devotee of Carl Jung is intellectual integrity.
 

Thalassa

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I know you would like to believe this as you are a devotee of Carl Jung, but Carl Jung, freely and willingly and without coercion, chose to serve Reich Marshal Göring. And as President the General Society for Psychotherapy in Germany he told every German psychotherapist to use Adolf Hitler's, "Mein Kampf", as a basic reference.

This led to the exile, torure and death of millions including Jews like Sigmund Freud and his family.

I can't help feeling that the price of being a devotee of Carl Jung, is intellectual integrity.

So you don't believe anything Jung said because you disagree with him morally?

So are Russians currently living in the fiscal instability of the 1990's since Vladimir Putin is a questionable and probably immoral person (the answer is no, because he stabilized Russia financially, even if he's a sociopath)?

While I understand your point, I can only relate it to philosophy; the only time that a person's personal morals convince me that their life philosophy was a load of crap...is when they claim to be a serious philosopher but build it on clearly biased ethical premises (see: Ayn Rand, Nietzsche).
 

Thalassa

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so he lied to them that he was in their camp so that he could help people under nazi control. quite noble act since he would most likely got himself killed if he got caught

Thank you for adding something pertinent to his seemingly endless diatribe against Jung.
 

Mole

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Jung and Me

It doesn't answer the question how subjectivity affects your personal reasoning. I am questioning your personal ability to objectivity reason, as has already been clarified, that attacking Jung and claiming his theory is invalid because it's built on his subjective understanding of the world is a hypocritical statement since you are doing exactly the same thing. So again, how can we know that your reasoning process and understanding of Jung, the world, and thus also the psyche, is more objective than Jung's and simply not mere subjective conjecture?

Well, we know because Carl Jung was psychotic, he willingly and freely and without coercion served the Third Reich, and he abused his female patients.

Whereas I am not psychotic, I am a liberal democrat and an anti-fascist, and I have been a feminist ever since I read my fellow country-woman's book, "The Female Eunuch", by Germaine Greer in 1970.
 

Mole

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Denial

So you don't believe anything Jung said because you disagree with him morally?

So are Russians currently living in the fiscal instability of the 1990's since Vladimir Putin is a questionable and probably immoral person (the answer is no, because he stabilized Russia financially, even if he's a sociopath)?

While I understand your point, I can only relate it to philosophy; the only time that a person's personal morals convince me that their life philosophy was a load of crap...is when they claim to be a serious philosopher but build it on clearly biased ethical premises (see: Ayn Rand, Nietzsche).

By their fruits, ye shall know them. And the fruit of Jung's meanderings is his support of the Third Reich, the murder of Jews like Freud, and the abuse of his female patients.

This is rotten fruit so we might suspect his life philosophy is also rotten.

But the problem we have here is cognitive dissonance. On one hand we are on a site devoted to Jung, but on the other we are discovering he was mad and evil.

And so if the guru is mad and evil, are the devotees mad and evil?

Or will the devotees continue to live in denial?
 

Thalassa

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By their fruits, ye shall know them. And the fruit of Jung's meanderings is his support of the Third Reich, the murder of Jews like Freud, and the abuse of his female patients.

This is rotten fruit so we might suspect his life philosophy is also rotten.

But the problem we have here is cognitive dissonance. On one hand we are on a site devoted to Jung, but on the other we are discovering he was mad and evil.

And so if the guru is mad and evil, are the devotees mad and evil?

Or will the devotees continue to live in denial?

Whether or not he was a nazi sympathizer, he sure had some clear ideas about what made different people tick.

Even an evil person can have great social intelligence and have a deep understanding of what makes people do what they do.

I think his morals were questionable, but like, I'm only able to look at Nazi Germany in a historical light, because I think it's incorrect and maladjusted to attempt to judge people by modern-day, information-filled globalized society; people who lived in Nazi Germany lived in a much smaller nationalist society.

Just as I can understand why some present-day Russians can be nationalists, I can understand why some Germans 100 years ago could be Nazis.

I do find your stubbornly self-absorbed lack of empathy a little bizarre for an Fi dom, but it's because you're an INFP instead of an ISFP; and you tend to operate in an Fi/Si loop, so you have difficulty shifting morality into context.

While I totally relate to your rabid sense of morality, as I have Fi too, I don't relate to your inability at ...what...45-60 years old?...to not be able to shift context into why people believe what they do and empathize with their specific circumstances, instead of some pre-determined "this always applies" blueprint.
 

Mole

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Whether or not he was a nazi sympathizer, he sure had some clear ideas about what made different people tick.

Even an evil person can have great social intelligence and have a deep understanding of what makes people do what they do.

I think his morals were questionable, but like, I'm only able to look at Nazi Germany in a historical light, because I think it's incorrect and maladjusted to attempt to judge people by modern-day, information-filled globalized society; people who lived in Nazi Germany lived in a much smaller nationalist society.

Just as I can understand why some present-day Russians can be nationalists, I can understand why some Germans 100 years ago could be Nazis.

I do find your stubbornly self-absorbed lack of empathy a little bizarre for an Fi dom, but it's because you're an INFP instead of an ISFP; and you tend to operate in an Fi/Si loop, so you have difficulty shifting morality into context.

While I totally relate to your rabid sense of morality, as I have Fi too, I don't relate to your inability at ...what...45-60 years old?...to not be able to shift context into why people believe what they do and empathize with their specific circumstances, instead of some pre-determined "this always applies" blueprint.

Well, fascism and Jungism both lead to reification.

But today the fascism we are faced with is ideological jihad. In the last few days we have had ideological jihad attack Boston, Toronto and the French Embassy.

And just as Jungism reifies people, so ideological jihad also reifies people.

And as a liberal democrat I am completely opposed to ideological violence.

But before we kill people, we first turn them into things, we reify them.

We reify them in Jungism and we reify them in ideological jihad.

To oppose reification wherever we find it seems the only decent thing to do.
 

Thalassa

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Well, fascism and Jungism both lead to reification.

But today the fascism we are faced with is ideological jihad. In the last few days we have had ideological jihad attack Boston, Toronto and the French Embassy.

And just as Jungism reifies people, so ideological jihad also reifies people.

And as a liberal democrat I am completely opposed to ideological violence.

But before we kill people, we first turn them into things, we reify them.

We reify them in Jungism and we reify them in ideological jihad.

To oppose reification wherever we find it seems the only decent thing to do.

Given your ideological rigidity, I'm surprised. But at least you keep it peaceful and confined to opposing people on an MBTI forum, not unlike an atheist confronting people with pamphlets on Darwinism at the church door every Sunday.
 

Mole

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Given your ideological rigidity, I'm surprised. But at least you keep it peaceful and confined to opposing people on an MBTI forum, not unlike an atheist confronting people with pamphlets on Darwinism at the church door every Sunday.

Can you imagine me knocking on your door next Sunday with pamphlets warning you about Jung?
 
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