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Anyone care to weigh in on Ne vs NiSe at work?

iNtrovert

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So I first asked this question on a thread named INFJ Mistype videos in an exchange with the op.

I wanted to explore this a little more elsewhere because i'm pretty sure I was getting on the op's nerves :shrug:
But we were discussing how INFJ's would communicate. (the op said i'm an INFP )
I asked :

" If in conversation Se is taking in objective external stimuli and Ni is also at work what would that look like? How do you measure the disparity between NiSe at work v Ne. If Ne is objectively intuiting external stimuli and NiSe is subjectively intuiting external stimuli what does that look like? How does that manifest itself in conversation?"

any takers?
 

Standuble

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You're better off reading up about Fi IMO. Fi and Fe are completely different and there is a good amount of information about Fi online (though most seems slighty confused or completely abstract and completely subjective to the individual who wrote it which is then passed off as universal.

How I experience NeSi is probably far less efficient than the ENPs but a big component is of Si. If you're introverted you will have lightbulb moments but they are experienced internally which I assume is adding to the confusion. But the biggest difference is that NeSi will store whole objects in the mind (e.g. a table or chair) and then the Ne will link the two together by a shared trait - four legs. It can also allow patterns to be identified but the mind will reference these stored real objects and confirm that they have shared traits which supports the pattern as factually accurate. It works with wholes and the dominant function will break down the whole object if it can so traits can be identified.

NiSe works the other way, a large number of tiny pieces come in and the Ni will form a pattern from them which is then stored and can then later be referenced. The external judging function helps the Ni in determining whether the patterns have any basis in reality. NiSe builds wholes from the millions of tiny fragments.

tl;dr version: NiSe is a bottom-up system whilst NeSi is a top-down system.
 

Azure Flame

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tl;dr version: NiSe is a bottom-up system whilst NeSi is a top-down system.

NiSe users tend to be "earthy" and crude in their humor while NeSi users don't.
NiSe see 1 large big picture life goal they plan on accomplishing that is often quite practical and doable. NeSi don't. (Ni user will say "I want to start an orphanage" while an Ne user might say, "donate for world peace") lmao...
NiSe enjoy struggle and force of will. NeSi don't.
NiSe users enjoy power games in relationship. NeSi do not.

What does "objectively intuiting external stimuli" even mean? Cuz I don't know.

If you have Ni, you will gain subjective intuitions that spontaneously pop up in your head like, "omg, jesus was actually black!" This is why Ni doms are probably the most paranoid, and a lot of them are into conspiracy theories. They're getting the information but they're not really sure where its coming from.

Ne users will gain intuitions based on direct experience in an environment in that moment. Its there. From what I understand they're objective even though Ne users in my opinion tend to be the most narcissistic and full of themsleves because these "unseen" things can often be pulled straight out of their ass. This is why there's a clear difference when ESTP's walk what they talk, in comparison to ENTP's who just tell everyone how fantastic they are at everything with no real clear proof.

Ni users are most likely to plan their own funerals, while Ne users are most likely to get frustrated because they want to do 8 things at once but don't know where to start. Ni is much more focused and singular than Ne is.
 

Standuble

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Did you intentionally quote me? You answer seems completely aimed at the OP?
 
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garbage

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Perhaps Ni/Se can be thought of as a balance between "it is what it is" and "what is it, really"? The former begs the latter, but the former can also answer the latter.
 

iNtrovert

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Sorry this is so long lol I am awfully long winded :shock:.Feel free to skim or maybe I'll just add a TLDR

So what i'm seeing is...um OK take a puzzle for instance. NiSe takes in all the tiny pieces Of a puzzle and then constructs a larger picture. They are the puzzle buyers. Sitting inside on a rainy day with grandma fitting each piece together.N eSi sees the completed puzzle and then separates the interconnected pieces. They are the puzzle company manufacturing. Going out talkig pictures of things and then it running the machines cutting up all the pieces.
[MENTION=14363]Standuble[/MENTION] So how would a person know which they were using. If an NiSe user werer using this process how much of the process would they be conscious of? In their mind would it appear as though they were just seeing the Big picture first ,not being able to see the pieces or would they have to be able to trace their thought process backwards to figure out how they arrived at the big picture?

I'm trying to figure out which one I use. Sometimes I feel like I just know things and it takes me a while to go back into my mind and find evidence for the things I know. Based in the comments here that kinda sounds like Ne but only if Ni is not subconscious. If Ni is a subconscious function to the user it would appear to be big picture first because they can't instantly go back and deduce how they arrived at something? If those little pieces they used to make that picture are not readily available to the user all they see is the picture. Even thought those pieces are being stored to be used later on and will produce that ah Ha moment . (That is something I identify with). If an Ni user is not fully aware of what is going on in their minds it's going to look like big picture to them. If i'm not mistaken that's where the subjectivity come into play. What does it look like to the user? It would be a difficult question to answer from a singular point of view hence the confusion lol. This has really helped tho.

I think this is what [MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION] was saying (and he can confirm if he would like too.) I'd also like to thank him for his examples. Oddly enough I told a joke that made my friend not speak to me for months. We just reconciled this week. I'm not making this up lol. I posted a thread about it.( she admitted to being over emotional and accepted the fact that it as not intended to hurt her, I apologized for unintentionally hurting her with my use of humor). I went to business school to start my own non-profit for underprivileged children. I have had my 5-10 year plan drawn up for years and I spent the past two years networking with guest speakers,professors and small business that work with my university to make that a reality. I'm currently working with a small business now for my internship and I plan to work with march of dimes this summer. My electives are negotiation classes so I pretty much chose to argue twice a week for a grade. It's one of my favorite classes. I also debated all through H.s on a state wide debate team. Needless to say I enjoy healthy power struggle. :D I'm being completely honest here. I really identify with your examples of NiSe it's almost uncanny.

Maybe my understanding of myself was flawed. Maybe when I was explaining Ni I as operating from a subjective view?Perhaps this is the use of Ne but with your examples being so consistent with my life I doubt it. Now that you know a little bit more about me I hope you can see why I respectfully disagree with you typing me as an INFP. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your post. You didn't have to comment on this thread but thanks for taking the time out to further explain this to me and continue the discussion. You have awarded me some clarity whether you agree with my deductions or not.To gain more clarity maybe I just need to to keep looking for subjective Uses or explanations of Ni and Fi. Maybe look around for some INTJ/INFJ or INFP forums?
[MENTION=14363]Standuble[/MENTION] do you care to give any more insight of your use of FiNe as an INFP? If you don't mind based on my brief description of myself do I strike you as an INFP?

TLDR

So.NiSe takes in all the tiny pieces Of a puzzle and then constructs a larger picture. They are the puzzle buyers. Sitting inside on a rainy day with grandma fitting each piece together.N eSi sees the completed puzzle and then separates the interconnected pieces. They are the puzzle company manufacturing. Going out talkeing pictures of things and then it running the machines cutting up all the pieces.

How much of Ni is conscious? Even though the are putting the pieces together if this is done subconsciously when they try to explain their ah ha moments won't it look like they are working backwards from the larger picture even though this is not how their brain is actually working?


Brief description of myself that was in line with examples given regarding NiSe:

I told a joke that made my friend not speak to me for months. We just reconciled this week. I'm not making this up lol. I posted a thread about it.

I went to business school to start my own non-profit for underprivileged children.

I have had my 5-10 year plan drawn up for years and I spent the past two years networking with guest speakers,professors and small business that work with my university to make that a reality.

My electives are negotiation classes. I also debated all through H.s on a state wide debate team.

( If you don't mind based on my brief description of myself do I strike you as an INFP?)
 

Standuble

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[MENTION=17164]iNtrovert[/MENTION] - Your judging function (usually internal judging function) is useful for identifying the perceiving processes. I believe NPs have it easier as they have a much stronger Ji function than NJs. So I would suggest you read up about Fi and Fe as Fi is easy to spot if you know what you're looking for (though it's difficult to describe to another.)

FiNe usually operates with the Ne bringing a number of possibilities to the table. For example today I made the determination with my amount of savings that I could start my own business (in the morning), take flying lessons (about lunchtime) and work towards emigrating (about 90 minutes ago.) The Fi determines how much the goal is valued (it does not give a quantitative figure but its closer to "more than" or "less than." Thus I would work towards realising a goal (more the inferior Te) providing the Fi value for the projected state of existence is > the current quality of life and the other possiblities. If the value of the possibility drops (Fi does re-evaluate a lot and the determined value can change quickly) or another possibility presents itself which has a higher value the former is abandoned and the new one is adopted.

Edit: A few additional points:
A) Don't confuse Fi for emotion, they are two seperate entities. You do not determine subjective value via emotion. Listening to emotion over Fi usually leads to problems if the Fi is unable to re-align itself with what the emotion entails or what following it will require from the person.
B) Fi-doms are not interested that much in what lies outside of the Fi's values. For example I do not care that much about starving African children but I do value spending money on new technologies and the like.
C) You will have a hard time following and doing that which you do not value at all.
 

iNtrovert

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Ok yea I don't do that lol. The fact that it's even possible is making me uncomfortable. I more or less have a plan for everything I want to accomplish . I go down the line and mentally check things off but I rarely deviate from my premeditated course of action.If I am forced to it's hard for me to cope with. Reevaluating on a greater of less than scale like that doesn't describe me . I set a goal and break that goal into tasks. Once that task is finished I move on to the next one until I reach my goal. I you were to ask me what I am doing to day and any given moment I can pretty much tell you. I schedule free time when the most important things are done and I'm content with my progress . In that space I'll pick and choose what I feel like doing but that's about it lol.
 

Standuble

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Ok yea I don't do that lol. The fact that it's even possible is making me uncomfortable. I more or less have a plan for everything I want to accomplish . I go down the line and mentally check things off but I rarely deviate from my premeditated course of action.If I am forced to it's hard for me to cope with. Reevaluating on a greater of less than scale like that doesn't describe me . I set a goal and break that goal into tasks. Once that task is finished I move on to the next one until I reach my goal. I you were to ask me what I am doing to day and any given moment I can pretty much tell you. I schedule free time when the most important things are done and I'm content with my progress . In that space I'll pick and choose what I feel like doing but that's about it lol.

From that I would assume INFJ. I don't know about other INFPs but in regards to the above thought process: it's so natural to me and it is so deeply woven in my mind that part of me still cannot believe that most others don't do that, even though it has been years since I discovered the MBTI. After I wrote the above post my brain wondered whether I worded the above correct, as it decided to believe that everyone thinks like that and that it wasn't specific enough. It's a stubborn little bugger at times :D

If you are sure you're not an SFJ or ENFJ then I would suggest you study Fe. Fe adapts itself to the values of the surrounding environment, the person's values gradually change and causes themselves to measure themselves by how far away from the standard they are. Fi cares only about its own values and measures you only by how far your actions and lifestyle are from what you value. However I am not 100% certain on how NiFe interacts and how much Ni will cause a deviation from the above description (which is more Fe-dom IMO.)
 

Aesthete

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I don't know about other INFPs but in regards to the above thought process: it's so natural to me and it is so deeply woven in my mind that part of me still cannot believe that most others don't do that, even though it has been years since I discovered the MBTI.

This is what I do as well, so you're not the only one.:) My mother (ENTP - so, Fe-user) doesn't understand why I'm not interested in getting higher marks to get a good job and function well in society - the whole problem that she puts in the front is a side-note to me.
 

Antimony

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This is what I do as well, so you're not the only one.:) My mother (ENTP - so, Fe-user) doesn't understand why I'm not interested in getting higher marks to get a good job and function well in society - the whole problem that she puts in the front is a side-note to me.

Interesting. Are you sure she isn't an ENFJ? This sounds more ExFJ to me (of course, that is incredibly black and white- I know Fi users who think like this). From my ENTP perspective, I wan to flip off society and be successful my way, as much as possible. It angers me when someone tells me I "have to get good marks to function well." Not true.

I think my Fe rebels because my Ne feels rejected.
 

Aesthete

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Interesting. Are you sure she isn't an ENFJ? This sounds more ExFJ to me (of course, that is incredibly black and white- I know Fi users who think like this). From my ENTP perspective, I wan to flip off society and be successful my way, as much as possible. It angers me when someone tells me I "have to get good marks to function well." Not true.

I think my Fe rebels because my Ne feels rejected.

I think she's ENTP (though I've considered ENTJ as well). I think that when she was younger she had her own fantastic dreams, but they've shifted with time due to external influence (stuff like "you've got to get a real job").

Now that you mention it, I've always considered my mother to be an ENTX, and never really looked at ENFJ. It would explain some differences between her and other ENTPs. I'll consider it some more. Thank you!
 

Antimony

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I think she's ENTP (though I've considered ENTJ as well). I think that when she was younger she had her own fantastic dreams, but they've shifted with time due to external influence (stuff like "you've got to get a real job").

Now that you mention it, I've always considered my mother to be an ENTX, and never really looked at ENFJ. It would explain some differences between her and other ENTPs. I'll consider it some more. Thank you!

No problem. ENTJ is very reasonable. Every ENTP I've known/read about seems to hate "having" to do things and will fight the system, the man, whatever until they get the result they want doing it their way.

Ex: I got poor marks in high school (well, semi-poor) because I hated working with the system and brown-nosing, etc (much like many INFPs)

My ENFJ sister is a straight-A student, wants to please parents, teachers, etc. Will work in the system and suck up.

I think the best way to tell an ENFJ from an ENTJ is to look at Fi and Te, or the lack thereof in the ENFJ. IME, ENFJs tend to be open to being merciful, understanding, etc, and are very charismatic. I haven't met very many charismatic ENTJs- at least, not ones that use Fe in charisma. It is more of a commanding, dominating charisma, if that makes sense.

ENTPs seem more about creating the individual than either ENTJs or ENFJs (please correct me if I'm wrong).
 
W

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This is what I do as well, so you're not the only one.:) My mother (ENTP - so, Fe-user) doesn't understand why I'm not interested in getting higher marks to get a good job and function well in society - the whole problem that she puts in the front is a side-note to me.
Interesting. Are you sure she isn't an ENFJ? This sounds more ExFJ to me (of course, that is incredibly black and white- I know Fi users who think like this). From my ENTP perspective, I wan to flip off society and be successful my way, as much as possible. It angers me when someone tells me I "have to get good marks to function well." Not true.

I think my Fe rebels because my Ne feels rejected.


You touched on it, but yes - wanting your child to get good grades will likely be ingrained in any decent parent, not inherent to EFJ's.


If I had a dime for every FJ parent...
 

Antimony

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You touched on it, but yes - wanting your child to get good grades will likely be ingrained in any decent parent, not inherent to EFJ's.


If I had a dime for every FJ parent...

Disclaimer: this is all IME

It's true- and I can only speak for the mothers I have known. My INFJ mom has always been on me for not turning in my work- but she wants me to learn for herself.

The ESFJ moms (softball/soccer moms, as I call them) are obsessed with having perfect children

ENFP moms seem to not care as much and just want their kids to be creative

INFP mom I know wants her kids to find their own paths and do well, however they get there

Dads

The ExTJ dad thinks that the only way to succeed in life is to get a degree at Harvard/the equivalent

ISTP dad says "fight the man...but do well"

So this kind of gives a review of different functions in men and women.
 

Standuble

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This is what I do as well, so you're not the only one.:) My mother (ENTP - so, Fe-user) doesn't understand why I'm not interested in getting higher marks to get a good job and function well in society - the whole problem that she puts in the front is a side-note to me.

That is good to hear. Reminds me of my ESFJ mother heh.

I was however referring to Fi itself. The act of only wanting to do that which I valued the most, the feeling of my mind determining what is most valued, the seamless way the values go up and down and how my mind moves from one object to another, skimming and stopping to only quickly evaluate its worth before moving on to the next. That was what I once thought everybody possessed. It is still strange to me.
 

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No problem. ENTJ is very reasonable. Every ENTP I've known/read about seems to hate "having" to do things and will fight the system, the man, whatever until they get the result they want doing it their way.

Ex: I got poor marks in high school (well, semi-poor) because I hated working with the system and brown-nosing, etc (much like many INFPs)

My ENFJ sister is a straight-A student, wants to please parents, teachers, etc. Will work in the system and suck up.

I think the best way to tell an ENFJ from an ENTJ is to look at Fi and Te, or the lack thereof in the ENFJ. IME, ENFJs tend to be open to being merciful, understanding, etc, and are very charismatic. I haven't met very many charismatic ENTJs- at least, not ones that use Fe in charisma. It is more of a commanding, dominating charisma, if that makes sense.

ENTPs seem more about creating the individual than either ENTJs or ENFJs (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I can't say I'm getting poor marks (they are a lot higher than the averages for the grade) but her expectations of me are much closer to 100%. I have the potential to raise my marks to that level, but I'm not putting in the effort - and we both know that - because I tend to put my interests ahead of my marks. She tells me about how my interests won't provide a great income for myself and a possible, future family and children; she's not aware that I don't mind living a semi-ascetic life to stick to my interests and won't put a child through a poor life to comfort my instinct to procreate and have somebody take care of me when I'm old.

But, yes, I hate the system too; it makes no sense to me - too much useless information that I will never have anything to do with and neither want anything to do with. Those who constantly fret about their marks and careers I simply see as slave-like and want nothing to do with, regardless of what their income will be.

Similar feeling in you?
 

Antimony

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So I first asked this question on a thread named INFJ Mistype videos in an exchange with the op.

I wanted to explore this a little more elsewhere because i'm pretty sure I was getting on the op's nerves :shrug:
But we were discussing how INFJ's would communicate. (the op said i'm an INFP )
I asked :

" If in conversation Se is taking in objective external stimuli and Ni is also at work what would that look like? How do you measure the disparity between NiSe at work v Ne. If Ne is objectively intuiting external stimuli and NiSe is subjectively intuiting external stimuli what does that look like? How does that manifest itself in conversation?"

any takers?

I see NiSe users "having answers out of nowhere." Most of the ones I know consider themselves to be psychic.

My NeSi recognizes past recognized patterns and applies them, consciously or unconsciously, to "appear psychic." I think that NiSe is a lot more unconscious than NeSi, so NiSe users say things like:

"I just know"

"I can't explain why, but I just know"

"I'm having trouble putting it into words"

"I have a bad feeling"

"It isn't irrational, it is true. I know it is true, I'm always right."

NeSi:

"Let's talk about the similarities between beavers and clouds. Beavers float in water and clouds float in air. So for fish beavers are like clouds."

"Well you see, x relates to y because I remember that y is equal to a, b and c and x is equal to d, e, and f. So they are related, sort of...and this is why my view of the alphabet is a juxtaposed one."

"The badger did it! I noticed that despite the fact that he was in a wheelchair, he had scuff marks on his shoes." (Taken from The Mentalist...sort of).

Granted, this is also my NeTi perspective.

[MENTION=16729]Aesthete[/MENTION]

I can't say I'm getting poor marks (they are a lot higher than the averages for the grade) but her expectations of me are much closer to 100%. I have the potential to raise my marks to that level, but I'm not putting in the effort - and we both know that - because I tend to put my interests ahead of my marks. She tells me about how my interests won't provide a great income for myself and a possible, future family and children; she's not aware that I don't mind living a semi-ascetic life to stick to my interests and won't put a child through a poor life to comfort my instinct to procreate and have somebody take care of me when I'm old.

This does not sound ENTP in the slightest. Not even a teeny bit, except maybe the income part...and that really pertains to E3's I think.

Also, I got okay marks- I considered a B to be a failure at that age.

But, yes, I hate the system too; it makes no sense to me - too much useless information that I will never have anything to do with and neither want anything to do with. Those who constantly fret about their marks and careers I simply see as slave-like and want nothing to do with, regardless of what their income will be.

Similar feeling in you?

Yes, a very similar feeling. For some people, success is happiness, but it isn't true happiness. It is like eating greasy fries or ramen for a week when you are hungry: you are full, and content, but you feel like you are missing something.

I understand that we need systems- but I wish we had alternative systems for people who think like me/us. Project based, or something to that effect. Something that would help us to our greatest potential. For me, memorizing facts and regurgitating them isn't the essence of my being.

It is about memorizing facts and extrapolating. I've created concepts my teachers consider remarkable, and nothing was regurgitated- merely backed up.

This is why I hate school and I try to do things in as creative a way as possible.
 
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