• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

How NOT to do typology

Honor

girl with a pretty smile
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
1,580
MBTI Type
?
Instinctual Variant
so
Oh, I mean the other way around, like how the public generally takes "smarter" to be "better". Perhaps it means more able, but better is a subjective, personally-determined value thing. Like let's say you are looking at partners... do you want a partner who is smart? Yes, of course, the vast majority does. But do you want a partner who is good at math? Well, you might not care, really. That sort of thing. The idea that "intelligence" is particularly linked to being "better" in general, while many other variables that are part of what we generally consider intelligence come out being less linked to worth when they are isolated.

I do agree of course that Js probably have an advantage in capitalistic systems... I think Ss have it better in basically any situation that requires being observant... Ts of course are better when dealing with rigid logic systems... and so on...

It just bothers me how much crossover there is between classification, like typology, and individual worth. It seems to me we should start out assuming that all people have worth because they are humans too, and take it from there.
I think we actually agree on many things, but we're having a lot of analytical dissonance simply because we value different types of analysis. For example, I agree with you that a person's value doesn't come from whether they are "intelligent" by someone's standard. I also don't believe that a person's worth is determined by how much they make, what type of work they do, and the myriad other criteria that our economic system (and thus, our society) uses to determine how useful a person is. I think all of that is absurd, really. I have a feeling you agree.

However, here's where I do think we clash: I don't think that we should limit analysis simply because of how people will use the output of that analysis. I do think it's very important to consider that people decide who to value and who to put down based on labels like "intelligent" or its opposite. I think it's important to consider that those labels are often assigned incorrectly and that the resulting actions are often unethical. All of that said, I don't think that means the problem is that "intelligence" has not been defined, is not defined correctly, or is not a valuable concept. People will always take information and appropriate it into inappropriate circumstances. (In other words, even if we withheld evaluation of "intelligence" in the way I think you desire, people would still find ways to keep the exact same people from holding social or economic power.)
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I think we actually agree on many things, but we're having a lot of analytical dissonance simply because we value different types of analysis. For example, I agree with you that a person's value doesn't come from whether they are "intelligent" by someone's standard. I also don't believe that a person's worth is determined by how much they make, what type of work they do, and the myriad other criteria that our economic system (and thus, our society) uses to determine how useful a person is. I think all of that is absurd, really. I have a feeling you agree.

However, here's where I do think we clash: I don't think that we should limit analysis simply because of how people will use the output of that analysis. I do think it's very important to consider that people decide who to value and who to put down based on labels like "intelligent" or its opposite. I think it's important to consider that those labels are often assigned incorrectly and that the resulting actions are often unethical. All of that said, I don't think that means the problem is that "intelligence" has not been defined, is not defined correctly, or is not a valuable concept. People will always take information and appropriate it into inappropriate circumstances. (In other words, even if we withheld evaluation of "intelligence" in the way I think you desire, people would still find ways to keep the exact same people from holding social or economic power.)

Well, I don't actually think we should withhold anything - more propagation of quality information, I think, is what is needed, along with less plutocracy. But of course there is very little motivation for people to give up their money and lower their quality of life so that others can benefit.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Well, I don't actually think we should withhold anything - more propagation of quality information, I think, is what is needed, along with less plutocracy. But of course there is very little motivation for people to give up their money and lower their quality of life so that others can benefit.
DSNY-SM-13.jpg
 

Honor

girl with a pretty smile
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
1,580
MBTI Type
?
Instinctual Variant
so
But of course there is very little motivation for people to give up their money and lower their quality of life so that others can benefit.
Exactly. Even amongst people who purportedly devote their careers for the benefit of the underprivileged, I've found it incredibly rare to find anyone who wants equality if it means giving up even the smallest portion of their own social or economic capital. Wanting anything for anyone's benefit other than one's own is a characteristic that this society preys on.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Exactly. Even amongst people who purport to devote their careers for the benefit of the underprivileged, I've found it incredibly rare to find anyone who wants equality if it means giving up even the smallest portion of their own social or economic capital.

Straw dog.

It's never been about equality versus money, but equality versus liberty.

Obviously, if I have less money, I have less liberty.
 

Honor

girl with a pretty smile
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
1,580
MBTI Type
?
Instinctual Variant
so
Straw dog.

It's never been about equality versus money, but equality versus liberty.

Obviously, if I have less money, I have less liberty.
wtf, you just made your own argument moot. if money and liberty are directly related, then if it's equality vs liberty, it can also be about equality vs money.

for example, if x is directly to y, then if you're measuring a variable k against x, you can also get a sense of k by measuring y.

also, wtf to "straw dog." i believe the term is "straw man."
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
wtf, you just made your own argument moot. if money and liberty are directly related, then if it's equality vs liberty, it can also be about equality vs money.

But if liberty is taken from a rich person then all that money becomes worthless.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
O gosh, all these gay INTP super-genius uber-epic almighty-Architects of everything are the most freaking annoying people in existence!

They think that they're like the smartest people in the world, can build all these amazing systems, and design the master blueprints for the ignorant slaves to render.

If you question their incredibly complex and boring logic, they will annihilate you with the most powerfully devestating arguments conceivable, leaving you crying your brains out for a week!

And worst of all, they have no respect whatsoever for upholding the sacred traditions of society or putting on the right face to please people.

They truly are the most despicable creatures in all of Typology. It's pathetic really, watching them all worship at the alter of Kerisey and chanting his antichrist bible!

You have INTP-ness envy!
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
You can't learn how to do something by looking exclusively at how not do it, but that is the first step towards developing a competency.
I disagree. I think it's a later step, once you've mastered the basics, but this isn't going to be a productive line of discussion.

There are a few problems here. First of all, you misjudge your audience. At most 1% of the membership is capable of / interested in reading and understanding Jung.
This is a pop psych site which doesn't take itself too seriously. I think there are common mistakes people make which make typology more curse than blessing, largely to do with establishing and reinforcing stereotype, prejudice and illusory superiority, rather than deviating from some imaginary standard of academic excellence. I mean, honestly, who cares? Typology is folk science, not real science. Folk typology is a still less rigorous discipline, let's not pretend that what any of us is doing here is important work. Lest we choke on our own hubris.

That is not true, the fallacies of most forum members can be reducedto a very small number of dubious principles or false premises because their ideas are founded on similar sources.
Both things are in fact true. The point is, there are more ways to get it wrong than to get it right.
But given that you are a self-proclaimed expert on this "very small number of dubious principles and false premises", why not just elucidate them in a single post, instead of constructing this elaborate means of humiliating and alienating the membership under the guise of instructing them?

Very few MBTI folks began dabbling in the art of "typism" without reading Keirsey or one of the countless internet sites on typology that were heavily influenced by his two volume piece "Please Understand me". Admittedly, Keirseyisms constitute only one source of abuse of typology, but other sources are few in numbers and much less influential. Although the fallacious typological assertions that forum users make are truly countless, their underlying rationales tend to be strikingly similar and that is what I aspire to evince in this thread.
I think the problems run deeper than simply an adherence to authors with a less than perfect understanding of typological principles. All too often, even these "dumbed down" works are badly misinterpreted by the lay person.
However, if the former is the aspect that most troubles you, why not just provide a critique of the work of authors like Keirsey? Surely you will be able to point out exactly where it is he is going wrong without enlisting numerous examples from his disciples? If he is wrong on principle, you ought to be able to prove that using just the original text, no?

For example, a teacher of a 100 level Composition class can compose a list of common fundamental errors that would include grammatical mistakes, well-known logical fallacies, failure to organize a paper in a way that includes the introduction, the body and the conclusion, failure to include a thesis statement and so on.
Again, why not compose such a list for our edification? Because the format of this thread is much too loose to allow anything useful to crystallise, and it will simply be used to make oblique attacks on other members.
I am not looking for converts, but in a nutshell, the abuse of typology is essentially a deviation from the original principles Jung laid down in Psychological Types.
But Jung didn't endorse using his typology as a tool for categorising individuals. He intended it to be used by trained psychotherapists treating patients, not lay persons on themselves. The very existence of a popular typology is an abuse of Jung. Perhaps we should all just give up and go home?

In seriousness, I don't think such a rigid adherence to Jung will benefit typology at all. He wasn't infallible, he got many things wrong. His approach was unscientific, his theories pure speculation. His text may have provided a foundation and some fascinating insights, but bible of type it is not. Some of Jung's writings are indistinguishable from the rantings of a lunatic, indeed, he was mad for a time. To critique others insofar as they depart from Jungian dogma, doesn't seem like a very rational approach.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Jung's works are good reading in terms of the theoretical discoveries I can make, not for goose-stepping along with Jung's personal musical theme.
 

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I wonder whether that's a strategy to sell books.

phase 1 - highlight the lack of knowledge of other people, implying he is an enlightened person

phase 2 - keep postponing the lessons on how to do typology right

phase 3 - build expectation

phase 4 - "I won't be able to write down everything, but here's a book that's gonna eliminate your folk typology issues..."
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I wonder whether that's a strategy to sell books.

phase 1 - highlight the lack of knowledge of other people, implying he is an enlightened person

phase 2 - keep postponing the lessons on how to do typology right

phase 3 - build expectation

phase 4 - "I won't be able to write down everything, but here's a book that's gonna eliminate your folk typology issues..."

Name the book and I'll buy it!
 

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
^Stay tuned!
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Hello everyone, I appreciate your continued participation in this thread. I'll be going out of town for a few days and I'll be back to reply to your posts some time in the middle of next week. Salome, I agree with almost all of the points you've made in your thread and I'll be sure to respond more thoroughly later. Although I'd be quite unlikely to influence very many people to study typology in a more serious manner, I'll look for a way to make a more meaningful contribution soon. The trouble is, I've been quite burned out with work and I haven't had enough energy to contribute anything more substantial than what I've contributed in this thread. It wasn't my intention to humiliate others with this thread, but I acknowledge that this was the consequence of my actions and will take responsibility for it.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Although I do believe that Salome had some good points, there is a a humane way for us to continue this discussion.

After half a decade's hiatus, shall we revive this thread?
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Oh, wow; old thread, old famous poster!
Picking up right where it left off!
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Although I do believe that Salome had some good points, there is a a humane way for us to continue this discussion.

After half a decade's hiatus, shall we revive this thread?
If you agree with her points, it's not logical to reboot this thread.
 
Top