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Pathology in our midst

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
The Wisdom of the Enneagram said:
As we learn to become more present, the positive qualities of the type in our Direction of Integration naturally begins to arise. When this happens, the limitations of the average range of our own type become painfully apparent. This gives us more incentive to stay with our practice and to recognize when we are slipping into the automatic compulsions of our type. Thus, we could say that the Direction of Integration represents the antidote to the fixated states of our type.


One of the central tenets of the Enneagram is that people of all nine types have different health levels, 1 is that of optimal psychological well-being or integration, and conversely 9 represents a pathological or a disintegrated condition. The main implication of the principle of Enneagram Health-levels is that an individual who is healthy has the freedom to utilize all nine aspects of their personality and he/she is generally not confined to the main repertoire of the type that most accurately portrays the personality of that individual. Conversely, just the opposite holds true for an extremely unhealthy individual.

As we all are aware, MBTI is more than a personality theory to many members here, quite a few in our community regard it as a religious faith that they adhere to with the zealous scrupulosity of a fundamentalist. These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.

That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition? If we accept the central tenet of the Enneagram regarding health-levels and the key characteristics of the most unhealthy levels of each type, the answer to that question becomes self-explanatory.

Should we really go so far as to suspect that well over a quarter of the users on this forum are pathological?
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Yes, many forum members follow Typology like a religion, not just as a general guiding star, but literally like the letters are their shephard.

What's funny though is that a true INFP or whatever for instance would often be very understanding and accepting of those who are different or even in opposition to them, in which the INFP may try to harmonize and make peace - but under your definitions, the pathological INFPs on this site, which there could be quite a few under those terms, would judge and condemn others who they do not deem to fit in with their type as inferiors and outcasts.

So I would say Typology systems can be taken too far, in which they become tools of separation and misunderstanding, whereas ideally they should help us come to appreciate one another and our unique gifts.

I'm fairly sure enneagram and instincts also play a role in the immense diversity we can see within various individuals of the same MBTI type, so that 4 letter code alone by no means is a sufficient explanation to account for the whole of the individual.

And as a side note, I am happy to see my alchemical wizard powers over life and death are able to not only bring the ancient raptors back to life from eons past, but also quite literally resurrected the originator of forum philosophy back to action - and also, if you are not INTP, then I would go as far as to say nobody is, but are you really 5w6 so/sx, or was I inspiration for your enneagram and instincts (and also, if you are wondering, my top 3 personality styles are Idiosyncratic, Solitary, and Adventurous, should you be wondering about other factors in the personality equation)?
 

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
4,024
MBTI Type
iNfj
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Yes, many forum members follow Typology like a religion, not just as a general guiding star, but literally like the letters are their shephard.

What's funny though is that a true INFP or whatever for instance would often be very understanding and accepting of those who are different or even in opposition to them, in which the INFP may try to harmonize and make peace - but under your definitions, the pathological INFPs on this site, which there could be quite a few under those terms, would judge and condemn others who they do not deem to fit in with their type as inferiors and outcasts.

So I would say Typology systems can be taken too far, in which they become tools of separation and misunderstanding, whereas ideally they should help us come to appreciate one another and our unique gifts.
I'm fairly sure enneagram and instincts also play a role in the immense diversity we can see within various individuals of the same MBTI type, so that 4 letter code alone by no means is a sufficient explanation to account for the whole of the individual.

And as a side note, I am happy to see my alchemical wizard powers over life and death are able to not only bring the ancient raptors back to life from eons past, but also quite literally resurrected the originator of forum philosophy back to action - and also, if you are not INTP, then I would go as far as to say nobody is, but are you really 5w6 so/sx, or was I inspiration for your enneagram and instincts (and also, if you are wondering, my top 3 personality styles are Idiosyncratic, Solitary, and Adventurous, should you be wondering about other factors in the personality equation)?
Very true!

And welcome back, SolitaryWalker! Good points.
 

disregard

mrs
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
7,826
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram does seem to lend itself more to self-betterment. For that reason, I've always enjoyed enneagram books. MBTT seems a bit caught on the self as is, on taking pride in that self.
 
W

WALMART

Guest
I cannot help but find irony in your assessment of Enneagram. I don't see how ones are optimal and nines are pathological, inherently. It seems you might have retconned the thought with later statements, so I'll blame it on word vomit.


As for your parting question: I can think of various reasons why someone may take a defensive position against the label they've ascribed to. Perhaps they do see them as personal attacks, as if the sixteen types cover all seven billion of us. I wonder more if it is simply an infancy of knowledge.
 
0

011235813

Guest
I cannot help but find irony in your assessment of Enneagram. I don't see how ones are optimal and nines are pathological, inherently. It seems you might have retconned the thought with later statements, so I'll blame it on word vomit.


As for your parting question: I can think of various reasons why someone may take a defensive position against the label they've ascribed to. Perhaps they do see them as personal attacks, as if the sixteen types cover all seven billion of us. I wonder more if it is simply an infancy of knowledge.

He's not talking about enneagrams 1 and 9, he's talking about health levels 1-9.
 
W

WALMART

Guest
He's not talking about enneagrams 1 and 9, he's talking about health levels 1-9.


Oh, I completely overlooked that. I associated the stereotypical trait of nine's being dissociative and ones being integrative. Thank you, and my apologies, SW.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
but are you really 5w6 so/sx, or was I inspiration for your enneagram and instincts (and also, if you are wondering, my top 3 personality styles are Idiosyncratic, Solitary, and Adventurous, should you be wondering about other factors in the personality equation)?

It would seem so. The psychological repertoire of type 5 describe my cognitive tendencies more accurately than any other. I have very few tendencies that bear a semblance to Enneagram type 4, in fact it is safe to say that with a possible exception in favor of a 2, I have less in common with type 4 than with any other token of the Enneagram system. I am certainly quite far from typing myself as a 6, but it's manifest to me that I have more in common with a 6 than with any other type with the exclusion of a 5. However, the concept of a wing strikes me is rather arbitrary, I am having a hard time discerning the underlying rationale behind the doctrine that our wing can only be that of a numerically adjacent type to our own. For example, it is deeply puzzling that a type 5 cannot have a 7 or an 8 wing. Similarly, an 8w9 strikes me as an incoherent repertoire as does a 2w3. Nonetheless, my understanding of the Enneagram is not nearly as nuanced as my understanding of Jungian typology is, so perhaps there is a perfect good justification for the doctrine that I've just impugned.

As for my instinctual variants, I am certainly not a self-preservation variant, because I obviously do not gravitate towards the evidently practical activities that are likely to guarantee material comfort and consistent peace of mind. I am clearly not a sexual type either for a number of obvious reasons, so that leaves me with the only option of identifying myself as the social type and that does not strike me as an unreasonable interpretation of my natural cognitive tendencies. I tend to be rather attuned with the social context of my milieu and strive to create an impact, albeit I've done that mostly on a subconscious level when I've published most of my posts that you've recently revived. It is my understanding that the instinctual variant manifests on a profoundly subconscious level and guides our actions in a manner that is nearly irrepressible and evident, by my lights, that seems to explain much of my youthful polemics and the tendency to be rude in controversies. Surely, the appeal to the instinctual variant does not provide a comprehensive or a precise explanation regarding the psychological origins of my behavior, but it offers a viable hypothesis that provides a tentative and a limited explanation with respect to a small part of my motivations.

Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced that the three instinctual variants that the Enneagram accounts for are exhaustive, I am open to the possibility that there could be many more and there is another variant that describes my fundamental cognitive tendencies with greater precision than the social does.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
One of the central tenets of the Enneagram is that people of all nine types have different health levels, 1 is that of optimal psychological well-being or integration, and conversely 9 represents a pathological or a disintegrated condition. The main implication of the principle of Enneagram Health-levels is that an individual who is healthy has the freedom to utilize all nine aspects of their personality and he/she is generally not confined to the main repertoire of the type that most accurately portrays the personality of that individual. Conversely, just the opposite holds true for an extremely unhealthy individual.

As we all are aware, MBTI is more than a personality theory to many members here, quite a few in our community regard it as a religious faith that they adhere to with the zealous scrupulosity of a fundamentalist. These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.

That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition? If we accept the central tenet of the Enneagram regarding health-levels and the key characteristics of the most unhealthy levels of each type, the answer to that question becomes self-explanatory.
Are you suggesting that a healthy individual should be able to utilize all 9 enneagram aspects of their personality with equal skill and frequency? MBTI, too, contains the idea that healthy development involves becoming more comfortable and proficient with one's less peferred functions. I never understood either system, however, to imply that one will ever be as good with the atypical functions or aspects as with one's native type. That would imply that "healthy" humans are really all the same, and to the extent that we have fundamental and discernable preferences, we are unhealthy. By extension, pathology is just the more extreme manifestation of this.

While it is silly to take as an insult the claim that a particular type is deficient, such claims are baseless, in either enneagram or MBTI. As anyone with half a wit knows, no type is better than another. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, as both Enneagram and MBTI describe.

It would seem so. The psychological repertoire of type 5 describe my cognitive tendencies more accurately than any other. I have very few tendencies that bear a semblance to Enneagram type 4, in fact it is safe to say that with a possible exception in favor of a 2, I have less in common with type 4 than with any other token of the Enneagram system. I am certainly quite far from typing myself as a 6, but it's manifest to me that I have more in common with a 6 than with any other type with the exclusion of a 5. However, the concept of a wing strikes me is rather arbitrary, I am having a hard time discerning the underlying rationale behind the doctrine that our wing can only be that of a numerically adjacent type to our own. For example, it is deeply puzzling that a type 5 cannot have a 7 or an 8 wing. Similarly, an 8w9 strikes me as an incoherent repertoire as does a 2w3. Nonetheless, my understanding of the Enneagram is not nearly as nuanced as my understanding of Jungian typology is, so perhaps there is a perfect good justification for the doctrine that I've just impugned.
I agree with your assessment of wings, though do find 5w6 describes me quite well. The notion of tritype may make more sense, namely the idea that everyone uses head, heart, and gut, and we can identify our preferred "mode" in each area. This explains well a 5 with strong 8 tendencies.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I'm sure you'll get plenty of people to agree that at least a quarter of the people on the forum are pathological, though almost everyone will swear that they aren't... we're all above average, after all ;)

Because of things like that I've always found the enneagram to be more multi-dimensional and hopeful than the MBTI though... you have something to work towards and something to work away from. The MBTI flat out slaps someone with a set of 4 immutable letters and people tend to identify with them to an alarming degree on here from time to time, not seeming to recognize that there are facets of their identities that can't be described by a set of four letters :doh:

The wing thing is pretty confusing though- I've never seen anyone give a sufficient explanation as to why one's wing has to be the next door neighbor when something else could be a much better fit- all I've gotten here is "but that's just how it is!" (good job at striking out for new intellectual territories, people) and the books just ignore the topic :thumbdown:
 

Tiltyred

New member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
4,322
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
468
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Tri-type should satisfy you for that, no?
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Tri-type should satisfy you for that, no?

not me... I want one of the other types from my same category in my tritype and I'm not allowed... but it's too far away to be a wing :sadbanana:

why all the restrictions? :huh:
 

Tiltyred

New member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
4,322
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
468
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm sure it can all be explained with elaborate mathematics that I wouldn't begin to understand. I'll take it on face value that it can't be done rather than have to sit through the explanation.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I'm sure it can all be explained with elaborate mathematics that I wouldn't begin to understand. I'll take it on face value that it can't be done rather than have to sit through the explanation.

I want an explanation and I LIKE math :sadbanana:
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
I'm sure you'll get plenty of people to agree that at least a quarter of the people on the forum are pathological, though almost everyone will swear that they aren't... we're all above average, after all ;)

Because of things like that I've always found the enneagram to be more multi-dimensional and hopeful than the MBTI though... you have something to work towards and something to work away from. The MBTI flat out slaps someone with a set of 4 immutable letters and people tend to identify with them to an alarming degree on here from time to time, not seeming to recognize that there are facets of their identities that can't be described by a set of four letters :doh:

The wing thing is pretty confusing though- I've never seen anyone give a sufficient explanation as to why one's wing has to be the next door neighbor when something else could be a much better fit- all I've gotten here is "but that's just how it is!" (good job at striking out for new intellectual territories, people) and the books just ignore the topic :thumbdown:

You can't have my four letters, you just can't NOOOOOO!

Personally though MBTI was only bearable for me once I put aside all the trappings of celebratory traits associated with types and instead looked at people as people.

Then again that was how I always looked at it. I didn't read internet descriptions or tests until after I had spent time researching this theory.

Once people understand that an ESFP and INTJ can understand the same ideas but in a different way, then the whole concept becomes much more useful, because then it is about human beings, rather than a series of idolised traits that are better associated with fictional characters who none of us will become.

Of course i'm saying nothing new here.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
One of the central tenets of the Enneagram is that people of all nine types have different health levels, 1 is that of optimal psychological well-being or integration, and conversely 9 represents a pathological or a disintegrated condition. The main implication of the principle of Enneagram Health-levels is that an individual who is healthy has the freedom to utilize all nine aspects of their personality and he/she is generally not confined to the main repertoire of the type that most accurately portrays the personality of that individual. Conversely, just the opposite holds true for an extremely unhealthy individual.

This is reasonably close to the truth, but could use some slight adjustments.

These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.

Well, depending on how it's done, it can be pretty absurd to claim that a type is deficient.

If one is referring to the "deficiency" of all types, in that no type perceives/judges the world in all possible ways, well, that is acceptable.

That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition? If we accept the central tenet of the Enneagram regarding health-levels and the key characteristics of the most unhealthy levels of each type, the answer to that question becomes self-explanatory.

You seem to be blending the enneagram's philosophy with Jungian typology, which could be seen as erroneous.

Imo, tho, the underlying principle is balance, and, as I've written extensively on here, balance (i.e., developing one's "shadow" [i.e., tertiary and inferior], one's "opposite personality" [5th and 6th functions], and, lastly [and most difficultly], one's trickster and demonic functions [7th and 8th functions]) is a sign of growth in Jungian typology as well as the enneagram.

(That being said, I think, even when one has achieved such growth, one still does and ought retain a certain degree of one's primary character [both Jungian and enneagram] -- in that way there is a balance to the balancing.)

Should we really go so far as to suspect that well over a quarter of the users on this forum are pathological?

According to them: just about that, yes. (using health levels 7-9 as the measure, as Riso & Hudson do)

And I don't know if "pathological" is the best term for the phenomenon you've described.

The term most widely used in the enneagram literature is "neurotic".

But I do feel the mental health of the forum is not necessarily all that high.

That being said, I believe psychologists have recently posited that almost 30% of America has a psychological disorder.

However, the concept of a wing strikes me is rather arbitrary, I am having a hard time discerning the underlying rationale behind the doctrine that our wing can only be that of a numerically adjacent type to our own. For example, it is deeply puzzling that a type 5 cannot have a 7 or an 8 wing. Similarly, an 8w9 strikes me as an incoherent repertoire as does a 2w3. Nonetheless, my understanding of the Enneagram is not nearly as nuanced as my understanding of Jungian typology is, so perhaps there is a perfect good justification for the doctrine that I've just impugned.

There is a reason for it.

Tritype allows for the other combinations, tho (mostly).
 

mintleaf

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
505
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp
Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced that the three instinctual variants that the Enneagram accounts for are exhaustive, I am open to the possibility that there could be many more and there is another variant that describes my fundamental cognitive tendencies with greater precision than the social does.

Any ideas as to what these variants would be?
 

mintleaf

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
505
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp
As we all are aware, MBTI is more than a personality theory to many members here, quite a few in our community regard it as a religious faith that they adhere to with the zealous scrupulosity of a fundamentalist. These individuals interpret even the slightest insinuation that their type is deficient as a personal insult, clearly, there is no doubt that these people's profound attachment to their four-letter code plays a cardinal role in their self-concept.

That leaves us with one obvious question, if these people apparently lack the freedom to use the myriad of facets of their personality, does it imply that they may be in the thrall of profoundly self-destructive condition?

I would say that religious adherence to MBTI is more stifling to a person's self-concept than their ability to access all facets of their personality. If some facet doesn't obviously fit into their understanding of their functions and preferences, they can simply reword/redefine until their dissonance is effectively relieved. You can make almost any characteristic sound like Ne or Fi, for example; it's just a matter of reworking the language...the amorphousness that personality theory is so often criticized for really lends itself to confused MBTI "fundamentalists." I wouldn't say that it's "profoundly self-destructive," but it can clearly stilt growth and understanding. A mind so fixated on categorizations may become blind to important nuances in others and self, and to potential deficiencies of the system

Should we really go so far as to suspect that well over a quarter of the users on this forum are pathological?

I find it hard to believe that a significant percentage of the human population hasn't always been pathological. So, absolutely. (I'm assuming that by pathological you mean something more along the lines of "far from peak potential, unhealthy" and not "battling mental illness." Though it goes without saying that many of the users on this forum are dealing with some degree of anxiety and/or depression.)

sorry for the possibly incoherent rambling
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
not me... I want one of the other types from my same category in my tritype and I'm not allowed... but it's too far away to be a wing :sadbanana:

why all the restrictions? :huh:
Because it is trying to provide a more comprehensive view of how we operate. As I mentioned, everyone uses head, heart, and gut to some degree. As a 5, for example, my core type is a head type. I may not like operating in heart mode and may even prefer to avoid it, when I do operate that way, is it more like type 2, 3, or 4? Similarly for gut. This is the information tritype provides.
 
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