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Te and Fe are always 'right'

PeaceBaby

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"When people disagreed with him he urged them to be objective."
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

I think there's a rather interesting POV attached to being Te or Fe (Je) inferior. We constitute (according to which data source you rely upon for such figures) upon approximately 20% or so of the population.

(As quick reference, the types that are Je inferior are ISTP, INTP, ISFP and INFP.)


Purpose of this thread: to explore the concept of being Je last.

Goals of this thread: to accumulate enough data or stories or anecdotes in order to expand my handy shorthand of "Te and Fe are always 'right'." To see if there are commonalities / patterns in this data.

Who is welcome to interact: all types, under the proviso that if you're Je dom, aux or even tert you are not here to say why you think anything in here is not 'properly' understood by any of the Je last types.

Questions to Consider:

How does being Je last impact your life?
How does it manifest in your personal relationships?
How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development?
How do you feel interacting with Je firsts?
How do you feel interacting with Je lasts?
What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen?
Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you?

And anything else of interest that you wish to share. Venting is permitted. Theorizing is permitted.

I'll share some of my own thoughts once things get rolling ... don't want to influence the direction too much.
 

Randomnity

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Purpose of this thread: to explore the concept of being Je last.

Goals of this thread: to accumulate enough data or stories or anecdotes in order to expand my handy shorthand of "Te and Fe are always 'right'." To see if there are commonalities / patterns in this data.

Hmmm...so I answered the questions without reading them through first, which was a mistake, but I may as well leave it even though my answers are meaningless.


I don't really find that Te and Fe primary users (ExxJs) or even aux users (IxxJs) think they're always right, as a whole. They often come across that way due to their communication style (less qualifying words, etc) but they are as open to changing their opinions as P types - which is to say, not a whole hell of a lot.
 

PeaceBaby

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Hmmm...so I answered the questions without reading them through first, which was a mistake, but I may as well leave it even though my answers are meaningless.

I am looking for info, not necessarily something that supports what it looks like I am saying.

This thread might turn out to be a giant fail too, because I am not especially good at getting a feeling across in words and I do not even fully 'know' if the words convey anything about what I am trying to say.

So, your thoughts are highly relevant. I just want to see where this goes, if anywhere.
 

Totenkindly

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I don't really find that Te and Fe primary users (ExxJs) or even aux users (IxxJs) think they're always right, as a whole. They often come across that way due to their communication style (less qualifying words, etc) but they are as open to changing their opinions as P types - which is to say, not a whole hell of a lot.

I'll respond to the OP later, but yeah, once I got used to their style of interaction, I found that even with a strong front, the Te/Fe primary is actually open to changing direction if you appeal to their favored form of reasoning. I didn't realize this when young and used to be intimidated.
 

Standuble

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I'm not sure if I've answered this correctly as my brain is in dufus bubble mode at the moment but here goes. If I've given useless answers then just advise and I'll do it again.

How does being Je last impact your life? It has influenced my life in more ways than I can determine. In my environment there has always been a prescence of Te in my entire life- from pre school classroom tables of yesteryear to supermarket shelves of today. I have always found myself lacking and that there is something in my environment I am repulsed by even though it is causing me detriment to do so.

How does it manifest in your personal relationships?Not so much outside of my mini-ESTJ monster rants and the occasional time where I need to arrange to be somewhere at a certain time which involves making sure I can get from point A to point B etc. My personal relationships are often governed solely by FiNe with Si thrown in for nostalgia purposes.

How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development?Negatively. As mentioned in point 1, there has been a component in my environment which prizes Te. Since going out to work at age 19, I've found myself lacking in certain key areas where someone with a stronger T could excel. The sense of uneasiness inferior Te causes affects my aspirations for career advancement for it knows that the role will no doubt rely on increasing amounts of it. Too much and I feel like I'm dying inside. It causes a dilemma where I find myself hoping that one day it will reach a point where I can find comfort in it.

How do you feel interacting with Je firsts? Steamrolled, especially when I cannot create a counter-argument to explain myself or assert my position in the moment. Usually leads to resentment or shame if I'm being verbally asskicked.

How do you feel interacting with Je lasts? That depends, usually I see myself interacting with a Ji-first rather than Je-last. In the past however I have looked down on other Fi-doms and feel bugged when I wonder whether I am the same (it hasn't occurred for any IFPs here!

What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen? They clarify only the situation they know and what they want from it and you. There is no smokescreen so much, if there is any then it's generated by my perception on wondering whether they can see beyond the rigid limitations their Je-dominance would cause.

Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you?My mother is an SFJ (I assume ESFJ) and whilst she is a good mother, quite nurturing and caring she has caused me misery in the past. Since discovering MBTI I have also taken a cynical view of her "selflessness" as mere programming which seeks to preserve itself by ensuring its environment is happy. Her logic is worse than my own as is her attention seeking (in her case it involves making sarcastic remarks about how lazy everyone is and that "she does a days work before we even get up" and created an environment of forced humility which ended up fuelling feelings that I am undeserving of certain things and made me feel shame for my arrogance and self-absorption. These days I do not stand for it and have "unlearnt" what I learned more or less. However I admit that it could have been worse had she been an ESTJ instead.
 

Totenkindly

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How does being Je last impact your life?

Frustrating. Fe mode used to be painful for me. I just thought the rules were stupid. They were also domineering -- "so and so will like it if you do this, so you have to do it; we have to have this trip/celebration, we've had it every years; you might hurt someone's feelings if you say something that direct, you should say something in a nicer way." I do not much like conflict, but at the same time I feel like people need to take responsibility for themselves and their own responses to some degree (either figuring out what was meant and/or exerting self-control), and change and adaptability is necessary in life, and sometimes you need to change the system when it is outdated. So I did eventually learn behaviors associated with "good Fe style" and understand their purpose, but at the same time I am not beholden to them.

The Te thing just drives me nuts -- it is NOT intuitive or easy for me. I am very proud of times in my life where I managed to get into a groove, work for a prolonged period toward a goal, and reach that goal... but I honestly also feel like exhausted/damaged me in the process. Typically once I crash after such a spurt, I am well out of commission for a long period of time.

How does it manifest in your personal relationships?

With Fe stuff, I'm actually decently polite/considerate. I'm definitely aware of the other person's potential feelings and responses, and I try to tailor my response in a least-offensive way possible... unless of course part of my point is to push their buttons and see what they do with it (as sometimes that forces people to confront issues they might otherwise avoid). I even like the feeling of being part of community now, and am willing to do what it takes to make things work relationally.

With Te stuff, though... well, I procrastinate and ruminate obsessively, without actually feeling much need to do anything. In fact, only the desire to accomplish things so as to provide further opportunity for me to ruminate on what I love is what forces me to actually DO things. So I force myself into Te mode out of sheer force of will, to do something that must be done. I'm not really one for making decisions, especially for someone else, in a relationship. I like to get feedback and discuss things first to see if a decision arrives naturally; and I feel imposed on when someone decides something for me without even asking me first.

How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development?

Meanwhile, I like to connect with people and have considered a transition to some kind of therapeutic career or psychology-related. I've tended to apply my thinking skills to issues involving people and culture.

Originally, though, I couldn't decide what I wanted to do with my life, so I drifted into my current career. I make a decent living but I'm not necessarily happy. I didn't really take charge.

How do you feel interacting with Je firsts?

I used to feel very intimidated and actively avoided them (both types). I adjusted to the Fe types first and realized they were warmer and more flexible than expected (the EFJs). The ETJs took me longer to be around, they felt like bulls in china shops to me, out to dominate me and force me to do what they wanted. But once I began to engage, I realized there were opportunities in the dialogue that I had priorly not noticed. They were open to change, if I justified my position.

How do you feel interacting with Je lasts?

well, there's a freedom in the dialogue at least. I just feel like not much happens, though, except maybe with the INFPs. I can't say I connect easily to ISTP because we have different sensibilities, they are much more rooted in practical concerns and seem to see intuitive meanderings as suspect or at best a waste of energy. ISFPs are fine, until we clash over values (T vs F) or I need them to actually stick to a schedule / get something done. the INFPs have a similar working style and we Ne-play together, so it's a very cheery and mutually reciprocal relationship.

What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen?

The Je firsts seem to get things done. However, I wouldn't say they necessarily have clarity; the need to get closure tends to be more important than exploring things at length to make sure the answer takes everything into consideration. I think Je aux are lower-key and more thoughtful about their choices of action, even if they want closure and also can sometimes not be as flexible (since they are always catering to Pi). They take more time in decisions.

Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you?

Mom is an ISFJ Je aux. Dad is an ESTP Se dom. My dad was far more annoying to deal with beacuse he would always impose himself on the process, he was not open to any reasoning but his. My mother was very very open to comments and more just made it her goal to be kind to people, and take care of the people she loved.

Still, one thing neither was good at was getting tasks done. My mom kept the family alive but was horrible at long-range tasks and planning. My dad never accomplished much at all because of his drinking abuses. My sister and I had no real modeling of what it meant to develop a plan/schedule long-term, get all the stuff together, then implement it and reach the goal and closure. It is something I have had to develop as an adult, on my own, out of necessity.
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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Despite what I said above, the small number of ENTJ's and ENFJ's which I met in my life, have in 2 cases been at the time some great company and we've bounced off each other really well, with them bringing out the best in me, and me giving them good solid analysis and information to back up their actions.

Basically, in those two cases, started off as business relationships, and easily became friendships. what was key though, is that we shared the same loyalty and vision. If not, we would not have got on.

Also my mother is ENFJ but that's a different story.:D
 

Lexicon

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My Ti doesn't think this categorization of Te and Fe being always 'right' is universally true- though I can see how it could be a trap some fall into.
 

KDude

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Maybe I just avoid this enough for it not be much of a problem. The only thing that comes to mind is refusing some apparent "obligation" or not sending a holiday card, and someone says it's not "right". Someone invited me to some event recently and it was RSVP.. I barely knew who the people were and didn't care to go, and I was told it wasn't "right" that I didn't at least send a reply and they lectured me on what rsvp was. Maybe that's some high level Fe etiquette I haven't adapted to.
 
G

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This reminded me of the King of the Mountain phenomenon; attributed in the wiki as both Te and Fe-dom (as inferior Ti):
In the King-on-the-Mountain style of conversation, one person (the King) makes a provocative statement, and requires that others refute it or admit to being wrong. The King is the judge of whether any attempted refutation is successful.

Tangentially--yeah, screw that noise. If someone thinks that they're right and are not open to be proven otherwise, and especially if they hold no real position in your life, then.. screw it, let 'em be right in their own minds; their delusions will probably bite them in the ass eventually.

And upon typing that out, I wonder whether it's an example of a statement that seems overly authoritative. :popc1:
 

Totenkindly

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And upon typing that out, I wonder whether it's an example of a statement that seems overly authoritative. :popc1:

Yes, I'm tempted to try to push you off the mountain.

My alternate strategy (the sneaky one) is to simply firehose the mountain until it collapses.
 
G

Glycerine

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This reminded me of the King of the Mountain phenomenon; attributed in the wiki as both Te and Fe-dom (as inferior Ti):


Tangentially--yeah, screw that noise. If someone thinks that they're right and are not open to be proven otherwise, and especially if they hold no real position in your life, then.. screw it, let 'em be right in their own minds; their delusions will probably bite them in the ass eventually.

And upon typing that out, I wonder whether it's an example of a statement that seems overly authoritative. :popc1:

This reminds me of my extended family (1 ESFJ and 4 ETJs, and then my ESFJ father who just detaches from it) whenever a reunion is being planned... it's like an all-out war to even decide where and how to get a freaking cake...lol
 

skylights

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The flipside of this is Ji users feel like they're right, too, we're just sneakier about it. :ninja:
 

1487610420

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Questions to Consider:

How does being Je last impact your life? n/a
How does it manifest in your personal relationships? n/a
How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development? n/a
How do you feel interacting with Je firsts? I find sensors can be abusively pushy&shortsighted and draining to interact with, I usually get along intuitive Thinkers as they can better grasp my different perspectives and complement my thinking style. Feelers can be a bit obnoxious or overly controlling.
How do you feel interacting with Je lasts? I find they can be impatient or otherwise illogically pushy "just because" they feel an itch to take action/see things done they can't quite grasp how to direct.
What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen? I'd say clarity can be a plus, but my experience with N vs S varies largely. Te intuitives can streamline my endless supply of options and keep a direction I can build upon, while for Te sensors I need to do more leg work to speak their language to actually get a message across. My experience with Feelers is also skewed, as I am generally averse to overbearing politeness/invasion of my privacy, but if they can respect that, then it's a good sail.
Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you? Possibly Fe dom mother, read above @ privacy & overbearing protocol. :dry:
 

greenfairy

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My type currently says iNfj, but as it is uncertain and it is highly probable I am INXP (probably T) I will speak from both the perspectives of inferior Fe and Te as they apply.

How does being Je last impact your life?
I kind of suck at Te, so I'll think of a theoretical plan to make things happen, and neglect to include important intermediate steps. And then I get distracted. But if I can incorporate things into a doable routine, or the project is small enough I can finish it in one inspired stretch, I can do it. I can accomplish long term goals if it's something important enough and long range enough that I can keep coming back to it with fresh enthusiasm and ideas. I'm best at accomplishing intellectual tasks, as I can refine things in my mind for a really long time, and once things click all I have to do is write it all down.

Fe: I'm kind of a judgmental person feeling wise, but I have to continually fight it. I don't want to be bigoted or hateful, or hypocritical and have it come back and bite me in the butt (judging other people for things I do). But when this does happen I gain a broader perspective because I'm forced to. I also strive for objectivity, and so I realize that all feeling judgments are essentially subjective. I also haven't been the greatest at recognizing and adhering to proper social behavior. I've done a lot of learning in this area. I don't want to just conform for its own sake, but I want to understand why people do things and why doing them is advantageous. Once I see it I'm happy to act normal.

How does it manifest in your personal relationships?
I don't see Te applying. I can see the descriptions of inferior Fe applying. I am very sensitive to approval and rejection in relationships, and if I perceive either I generalize it to be indicative of some truth about myself. I have to continually fight the tendency to assume negative meaning from puzzling behavior (so and so didn't return my call, therefore he doesn't like me anymore). Usually these assumptions turn out to be incorrect.
How did/does it affect your choice of career or career development?
Negatively. I grew up with the belief that what I wanted didn't really matter and wouldn't make me money, so I didn't pursue what really made me happy until a year ago. I tried several times to strike a balance between something I thought I'd like well enough and something sensible, and each time found major problems with it. I finally decided on philosophy. And I will make it work because I am a philosopher by nature and can't be anything else.
How do you feel interacting with Je firsts?
I have limited experience with them, and the Fe first was a very unhealthy ENFJ, so my perspective on it could be skewed. However, the traits she exhibited infuriated me to no end. She was really judgmental and pushy and emotionally manipulative. When she approved of me I felt really great, but when she disapproved
I felt like I was being chastised and shunned by an entire village in front of the gods.

Te first: I dated a (probably) ENTJ and am seeing (probably) another. They sometimes annoy me with being so sure of themselves, like they think they know twice as much as I do. But they are a wonderful change from the ENFJ mentor. They actually don't judge me, even though I expect them to. They are capable of objective analysis and dialogue. Even though I feel a bit inferior because they are so much more productive than I am, I realize that that's my own issue, and they often help me become more productive. So all in all I like them.
How do you feel interacting with Je lasts?
We can have a lot of silly fun. They're pretty laid back, which I like. Good conversationalists. Pretty nonjudgmental. The IFP's offer interesting perspectives, and the ITP's have stimulating ideas. I haven't had a bad experience yet with an ITP (other than a couple on here), but two inferior Te's I am close with can be dreadfully moody and spiteful. I don't see the point of being so emotional about things; it wastes energy. And being spiteful and hateful doesn't solve problems and just makes people agitated. Also their judgments can seem arbitrary.
What do you think of Je firsts and auxs? Do they provide clarity? Do they make everything a smokescreen?
Both and either, depending on whether they are healthy and developed. Fe can help me feel good about myself and get along with other people, but also be manipulative. Te can help me be productive and assertive, but also a bit arrogant. I think I'm better equipped to deal with ETJ's currently; I'm less susceptible to their methods of control. Also my best girl friend is ESTJ, and I don't find her controlling or bossy at all (so I forgot about her). We get along great. If she tells me I need to do something I realize she is right and thank her for reminding me. (She's married to the ISTP and kicks his butt when he's lazy.)
Were you parented by Je doms or auxs? How did that affect you?
ISTJ and ISFJ probably. Neither really understood me, and both were very judgmental. So of course I internalized it and thought there was something fundamentally wrong with me (Te) and would never be able to survive in the world because terrible things would happen no matter what I did (inferior Ne). I felt the same way as my mom about ethical things, so I internalized a lot of my mom's (extremely biased) beliefs. Unlearning all of this has been a challenge.
 

KDude

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This reminded me of the King of the Mountain phenomenon; attributed in the wiki as both Te and Fe-dom (as inferior Ti):


Tangentially--yeah, screw that noise. If someone thinks that they're right and are not open to be proven otherwise, and especially if they hold no real position in your life, then.. screw it, let 'em be right in their own minds; their delusions will probably bite them in the ass eventually.

And upon typing that out, I wonder whether it's an example of a statement that seems overly authoritative. :popc1:

I don't get that sense of conflict from Fe types.. Sometimes it's annoying, because I don't want to invest any time to the same things, but sometimes I'll defer to their wisdom for the very same reason. I'll conflict with Te more often. There's overlap and competition there. If they are "kings", it's vicariously.. the real king to them is whatever construct they've adopted for themselves. They find a strong position or can be very informative within the confines of their little model of reality, and might intimidate some people with it. But the Ti doms are the first to ignore it. Reality is about whatever works, the results. Not some particular process. So there can be conflicts on this front).
 

Il Morto Che Parla

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I noticed with a lot of FP's I know, that they get unconscious or semi-conscious Te "pressure" very easily, and feel it as an external "pressure" when in fact it's their own imgaination.

Like my ex gf, all the time would be like "XYZ person wants me to do ABC, no I have to do it NOW, no I have to do it THIS WAY" - basically freakin the fuck out.

Then I would look at the message, or talk to the person myself, and it would be just a chilled out reasonable request, and it wasn't necessarry to freak out, we could have just had an interaction with that person, and come to a mutual understanding of how to get the job done.

But I guess it's the same with any inferior function that we don't develop: people feel it as an unbearable external pressure rather than taking control of it and dominating it step by step. I used to be the same with Fe, but then I learnt to recognize it.
 
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