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Solving the F Problem

A

Anew Leaf

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I reckon feelings exist for a reason. I think of it as the whole of your thoughts in a brush stroke. I don't see a problem with following what they tell you, because as I am sure you are aware, people who compartmentalize their thoughts have equal opportunity to be wrong.


I don't think it's much a problem. Until they start telling you to kill someone :ninja:

True. I guess maybe what I am getting at is the feelings/emotions can be a form of compartmentalization being that they can act as the judge and jury and lawyers in a court of law.

Good topic and it's similar, although much less vitriolic, than the one I made about the point of feeling.

Honestly the intellectualisation of emotional content frightens me, because I adhere to it so strongly and i'm aware I do. However despite this there are times when I cannot stop the immediate reaction of this emotional content.

What's more even the positive emotions are frightening, after all what happens when they stop? It's like a drug; when i'm content I want the feeling to last forever and it is all the more bitter for me when it doesn't. So ive tried to prosper in spite of this, going against the emotions lest I fall into depression.

So far this appears to be a good move and has helped me move out of tragic cycles of emotional states that are of no use to me or those around me.

Interesting anecdote, thank you for sharing. :)


i think its a juggling act.

the way i see it, at various points in our early lives, we have encountered stressful situations of emotional dissonance and cognitive dissonance, which can conflict quite easily, and somehow, our brains have decided that one is more stressful and unbearable then the other, determining whether we'll be Feelers or Thinkers, and orienting our function order in order to better cope with the respective stress.

the reality is, we need to cope with both.

Hmm, I suppose then I am questioning my early decision making processes based on decades of evidence. :)
 

Coriolis

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I wouldn't chalk up impulsive job-quitting to F.. I've done it many times. A lot of the forecasting and preparation may very well be Ni or Si. TPs still inhabit the moment like FPs. The logic comes into play in on the fly manuevering. But they can lose their grounding as well, find themselves on their asses, realizing they're not as clever as they think. At least STPs don't think about the future enough. Not sure I could say the same for NTP, but I think they share a lot in common.
I attribute it primarily to emotion and allowing it to dictate one's choice in the moment, which is not the same as Feeling in the functional sense. It shows an absence of T, but in many cases an absence of F as well. Some deliberate and rational process is necessary to short-circuit kneejerk reactions that are unproductive, or at least to vet them sufficiently to establish they are sound, or at least harmless. That process could be T or F, or at best a combination of both.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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As a "T" - I was emotionally under-developed until only a few years ago (aka, the tender age of 35).
I did not let my feelings rule my life, not at all.
And trust me, that course is completely screwed up to navigate also. :shock:
Try solving matters of the heart by building a quantitative decision model in MS Excel - yeah, a really bad idea, don't do it. :doh:

Hmm, maybe this is my problem then. Trying to solve matters of the brain with my heart. I rely so much on instinct and intuition and emotion to make major decisions or how I guide my life... I don't really know another way per se, or if I should try for another way or if I should modify my current way.

But using Excel for anything other than budgets... seems like a bad plan. ;)

You bring up an interesting point!
There are things I have VERY STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT, and those things are in line with my CORE VALUES.

So, to me, "Feelings" = ephemeral (potentially) - or even more simply "physiological feedback."
Whereas "Core Values", "Beliefs", and "Principles" are things that have solidified (and in my case for damn good reason) themselves into me over long periods of time.

This is a good distinction. Maybe that is where I have to draw my line in the sand... around the things that I value the most and guide me the most... and then try to be more balanced? is that the word? In my approach for other things.

You don't have to question the (a) deep essence of yourself, or (b) your sanity.
I offer a third option.
Instead, consider questioning (c) how you felt based on what you knew about a given event at the time your feelings registered about it.

For instance, few will argue with the concept of "allowing one's self to become wiser as time moves on, and our knowledge and experience grows."
So, is it not also appropriate to consider "allowing yourself to feel differntly about things than you did in the past, based on what you've learned since those feelings were formed?"

What a beautifully Ni-Se way of putting things. ;)

It's not a problem unless this phenomena is somehow interfering with your ability to live a normal & productive life, IMHO.
It would be an interesting thing to keep tabs on over time for the sake of learning about yourself though.
Why not?
I did so with my feelings years ago, and it did a damn large bit of good in developing them in a short stretch of time.

See, this is my concern and why I Brought the topic up to begin with. I question myself and my ability to make important decisions in my life being that that is exactly what I am trying to do... and yet I have allowed myself to become distracted by diversions that don't further these goals. Maybe this is a Pe issue, :laugh: being that I am not a J.

Interesting advice as always my dear, Alex. :) Muchas gracias, mi hermano.
 

KDude

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I attribute it primarily to emotion and allowing it to dictate one's choice in the moment, which is not the same as Feeling in the functional sense. It shows an absence of T, but in many cases an absence of F as well. Some deliberate and rational process is necessary to short-circuit kneejerk reactions that are unproductive, or at least to vet them sufficiently to establish they are sound, or at least harmless. That process could be T or F, or at best a combination of both.

Rational process is still different between Te and Ti. Ti isn't so concerned about process, but result. Some have a tendency to "rig" and create makeshift processes, things that they think will gain them leverage in the moment. Situational rationalizing. Not Rationality sprung from a desire to get everything right, in some kind of farsighted or "objective" sense. The TJ is the one who is more fixated with masterminding, creating reliable plans, even things like taking time to plan simple trips in their cars to be more efficient. The underlying process in how the two types might think about quitting a job would illustrate some big differences. There are plenty of STPs who would take a gamble, think they could get the best of everyone without being responsible about it. It's almost a rush for some to win in unexpected ways. But often, they don't. Visit your local prison for examples. Plenty of T idiots there ;)
 

greenfairy

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There is happy and happy, with the distinction based on which time scale one is considering. Someone with a stressful job who has had a particularly bad day may feel that quitting will make them happy. They will have the satisfaction of telling the boss what they really think of the job, and the relief of knowing they will never have to return to that negative environment again. Having no job, however, may quite well bring more unhappiness in the longer term. A thinking-based decision involves more planning and premeditation: e.g. tolerating the unpleasant job while networking to find a better one, and leaving only after that future is secured. While the logic here is clear, the feeling function is present as well, since one is weighing competing personal values. In fact, this is a good example of the two working together. The first option (quit precipitously), by contrast, overrelies not so much on feeling as a function, but rather on emotion as an input to the process. An important decision based on emotion is likely to be less sound in the long term, but both thinking and feeling as functions can be used to resist the pull of the immediate emotion in favor of something more lasting.

That's true, and even though I am thought of as a feeler, I have never been known to do something impulsive like the former. Another example of how the two need to work together; but do you experience decisions you make using primarily the Thinking function (being INTJ) where there is an equally valid Feeling option or process? Obviously you must, or else the choice of making decisions based on Thinking would be meaningless. What would the difference be in your experience?
 

Coriolis

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Rational process is still different between Te and Ti. Ti isn't so concerned about process, but result. Some have a tendency to "rig" and create makeshift processes, things that they think will gain them leverage in the moment. Situational rationalizing. Not Rationality sprung from a desire to get everything right, in some kind of farsighted or "objective" sense. The TJ is the one who is more fixated with masterminding, creating reliable plans, even things like taking time to plan simple trips in their cars to be more efficient. The underlying process in how the two types might think about quitting a job would illustrate some big differences. There are plenty of STPs who would take a gamble, think they could get the best of everyone without being responsible about it. It's almost a rush for some to win in unexpected ways. But often, they don't. Visit your local prison for examples. Plenty of T idiots there ;)
I won't disagree with the highlighted. The rush that comes from such impulsive behavior, however, shows that these idiots are not engaging much of any rational process, be it F or T, but are allowing themselves to be ruled by their emotions in the moment. Having T in one's type hardly inures one to such (mis)behavior. Also, IME it is Te that is concerned with results and outcomes, and Ti with the internal consistency and perfection of the process. Part of why NTPs generate far more elaborate and worthwhile schemes than they ever implement, and why NTJs often consider the perfect the enemy of the good. (Now get us together - and there is almost nothing we cannot do.)

That's true, and even though I am thought of as a feeler, I have never been known to do something impulsive like the former. Another example of how the two need to work together; but do you experience decisions you make using primarily the Thinking function (being INTJ) where there is an equally valid Feeling option or process? Obviously you must, or else the choice of making decisions based on Thinking would be meaningless. What would the difference be in your experience?
In considering your comments, I realize I don't think of options in terms of thinking or feeling, just sound/unsound, effective/ineffective, or even feasible/unfeasible. Of course, having strong Te-aux, that is my primary yardstick in making these assessments. I actually make very few decisions using a process driven primarily by Te, though.

My decisions are usually Ni-based, in that after absorbing a certain amount of information about the situation (often less than I should), I simply "see" what appears to be the best option. It is at this point that I engage Te to analyze this perception. A large part of this analysis is considering pros and cons, costs and benefits of the indicated option. This is where Fi comes in, since in determining whether a possible benefit is worth the cost, I must engage my values - what is important to me, and what lines I will not cross in order to get something. Sometimes I realize I have conflicting values or priorities, at which point I engage Te again to determine the root of the inconsistency, then revisit the analysis.
 

greenfairy

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In considering your comments, I realize I don't think of options in terms of thinking or feeling, just sound/unsound, effective/ineffective, or even feasible/unfeasible. Of course, having strong Te-aux, that is my primary yardstick in making these assessments. I actually make very few decisions using a process driven primarily by Te, though.

My decisions are usually Ni-based, in that after absorbing a certain amount of information about the situation (often less than I should), I simply "see" what appears to be the best option. It is at this point that I engage Te to analyze this perception. A large part of this analysis is considering pros and cons, costs and benefits of the indicated option. This is where Fi comes in, since in determining whether a possible benefit is worth the cost, I must engage my values - what is important to me, and what lines I will not cross in order to get something. Sometimes I realize I have conflicting values or priorities, at which point I engage Te again to determine the root of the inconsistency, then revisit the analysis.
Interesting, this is exactly how I've described my decision making process. (But if I think I use Fe I couldn't be INTJ, so...meh who knows once again.)

This indicates decisions being made by the dominant process, going down the line of functions in a hierarchical order; unfortunately it doesn't give me a method of accurately answering questions on a test.
 

Coriolis

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Interesting, this is exactly how I've described my decision making process. (But if I think I use Fe I couldn't be INTJ, so...meh who knows once again.)

This indicates decisions being made by the dominant process, going down the line of functions in a hierarchical order; unfortunately it doesn't give me a method of accurately answering questions on a test.
As an INFJ, you would follow a similar process, checking your intuitions first with Fe, then engaging Ti (perhaps to see whether the values applied by Fe are consistent? Not sure as this function is not in my higher preferences). As for tests, my method often works there, too. What seems to be a correct answer (or best way to organize an essay) comes to me, then I validate and modify it with Te. I usually needn't engage much Fi on tests, though.

(FWIW, I seriously doubt you are an INTJ, and always have.)



But using Excel for anything other than budgets... seems like a bad plan. ;)
Excel is for business weenies. One needs more sophisticated software for real calculations.
 

KDude

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I won't disagree with the highlighted. The rush that comes from such impulsive behavior, however, shows that these idiots are not engaging much of any rational process, be it F or T, but are allowing themselves to be ruled by their emotions in the moment.



I would chalk up a lot of the "in the moment" stuff to Se actually. The thrill of action, performance, the thrill of experiencing the pieces fall together in place, in real time. That puts a smile on any SP's face (in the same way that the thrill of discovery would for Ne). It's not emotion in the F sense though. It's something visceral.

Coupled with Ti specifically, it's a mix of the above and a joy one gets from seeing one's subjective theory/idea/scheme validated in the real world. That you bested traditional wisdom or the obvious. That you had a clever workaround of the "facts". This may have an emotional element, but it's still not F. It's just validation that you, at least for a moment, have a better understanding of the world than others. And it could be in areas that are completely innocent (like sports), but also something more devious, like the thrill of a theft. What makes some idiots isn't emotion, but when they pit their theory against indisputable facts or creating a workaround without knowing a "system" well enough, and thinking they'll be rewarded for risk alone. But either way, STPs will take risks. You can put them in the same box as TJs, thinking things through the way they do. Just the thought is uncomfortable, if you ask me. I hate to put it this way, but Te is usually pretty square. TP is willing to fuck around a bit more and not worry about the long term.. to them, it's not going to be boring at least.
 

skylights

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I don't experience much feels right - is right conflict, but I have only recently been learning to differentiate my moods from my feelings, as OA has also described. For a very long time I let my moods overwhelmingly dictate my behavior, and it's particularly in the context of my relationship (sorry guys I really am sx to the max) that I have been forced to mentally split between "I am angry at you now" and "I want us to be together in the long term". I feel like I have to fight back the dragon inside myself to make a better decision, like trying to speak calmly and give the benefit of the doubt instead of yelling. It's a learning process, that's for sure.

KDude said:
TP is willing to fuck around a bit more and not worry about the long term..

I actually wonder if there's not some kind of FP correlate to this, in that Fi and Ti are more "timeless" in nature than Fe and Te, and therefore subjective validation and aiming for what "should" be is more important than objective influence and immediate delivery of results. Combine that with the exploratory, holistic nature of Se and Ne, and you wind up with Ps being much more likely to behave spontaneously and to feel more comfortable with less consistent behavior.
 

KDude

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I actually wonder if there's not some kind of FP correlate to this, in that P is more short-term focused and Fi and Ti are more "timeless" in nature than Fe and Te, and therefore subjective validation and adhering to what "should" be is more important than objective influence and immediate delivery of results. Combine that with the exploratory, holistic nature of Se and Ne, and you wind up with Ps being much more likely to behave spontaneously.

I think there is a lot in common, but also, I think someone like Coriolis provides good advice for someone like you specifically (EFP, a Te aspirant). So while we can share things in common, a better advisor for how you develop T are the TJs. Fe is the thing that guilts me more into not being myself. Heh.
 

skylights

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I think there is a lot in common, but also, I think someone like Coriolis provides good advice for someone like you specifically (EFP, a Te aspirant). So while we can share things in common, a better friend for how you develop T are the TJs. Fe is the thing that guilts me more into not being myself. Heh.

:thinking:

Er, well, thank you for the advice, but I wasn't really talking about developing anything, just theorizing on why P is as P is. :shrug:
 

KDude

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:thinking:

Er, well, thank you for the advice, but I wasn't really talking about developing anything, just theorizing on why P is as P is. :shrug:

Oh, I wasn't giving advice. Just kind of...building on the theme. Or something. I don't know. It's late. :coffee:
 

skylights

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Oh, I wasn't giving advice. Just kind of...building on the theme. Or something. I don't know. It's late. :coffee:

:laugh:

I feel like I should be sleeping right now! Too bad my mood is very awake...
 

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I always go by my gut feelings. The moment I start to think about a decision first, I end up questioning it for the rest of my life :D
 

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If you're a feeler and chose the 'feeler way', but still it turned out you were 'wrong' or think you could have had better results if you approached differently. At least you have been true to yourself and were able to learn from it. For a feeler it would still be much better than trying to ignore those feelings and attempt to go with a 'rational' approach, which is likely to cause a much bigger fallout.
 

Coriolis

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I would chalk up a lot of the "in the moment" stuff to Se actually. The thrill of action, performance, the thrill of experiencing the pieces fall together in place, in real time. That puts a smile on any SP's face (in the same way that the thrill of discovery would for Ne). It's not emotion in the F sense though. It's something visceral.
I agree on the role of Se here, and that emotion in this sense is not F. F is a judgment process, whether Fi or Fe, while emotion is an input that is often very sensory in nature, and obvioiusly in the moment. I had the impression, though, that most emotion is essentially visceral in nature, or at least in how we perceive it. Is that incorrect, or at least not usual?

But either way, STPs will take risks. You can put them in the same box as TJs, thinking things through the way they do. Just the thought is uncomfortable, if you ask me. I hate to put it this way, but Te is usually pretty square. TP is willing to fuck around a bit more and not worry about the long term.. to them, it's not going to be boring at least.
I'm not sure I understand the highlighted. Are you suggesting SPs and TJs follow the same thinking process in making decisions? I would not expect much similarity, given the opposite function orientations and different function orders, though each does seem to be action-oriented in their own way. Yes, Te on its own seems pretty square, as you call it. It never is on its own, however, and coupled with Ni, as in NTJs, can be used to drive some rather unconventional, even outlandish stuff. The difference is that it often will be longer term in nature, and very premeditated rather than spontaneous.
 

Little Linguist

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As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is. I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right. I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic. :)

First, yes, it is a topic, and a good one at that.

Similarly, I have encountered the situation when I have correctly perceived a situation, but jumped to the wrong conclusion. For example, let's say I notice someone is acting in a peculiar manner, and I pick up they are distressed. Indeed, they will be, but sometimes I will figure out the wrong reason due to a lack of information. And if I do not discuss the matter, I might react in a way inappropriate to the actual problem.

Making decisions can be an issue as well. Acting on feelings is not necessarily a problem, whereas acting on *impulse* has nearly always proven detrimental. My coping mechanism: sleep on it. Usually my first impression is not accurate, and upon more pondering and mulling in my mind (not always conscious, can also be while sleeping) I come to a more accurate result.

Of course, the problem is getting myself to take that time out. Feelings + thought + action. But sometimes you just want to dooooo something. :D
 
S

Society

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Hmm, I suppose then I am questioning my early decision making processes based on decades of evidence. :)

there's a little baby ISTJ nodding it's head from the reverse order of every ENFP. wake her up.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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I think you need both logic and emotion equally to be the most rational/logical person you can be. It made me think of this passage of a book I read called the "Happiness Hypothesis". I thought the author framed it in an interesting light.
Happy New Years!

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Oooh, This was a wonderful read, thank you! I always love any psychology angle.

Every so often, emotional (as well as perceptual) impulses tug at me.. and I've followed them at times.. but mostly the idea scares the crap out of me. Perhaps Perceptual thinking is even worse.. it's more out of control and irrational. At least Fi is "judgement" based, not irrational. In any case, if you desired to be logical, you'd probably have to experience the same kind of anxiety and want to step back and willfully be logical. If F based decisions don't alarm you the moment you're aware of them, then it's too natural for you to really step back. Perhaps you'd be better off with an outside source of logic, a friend, to help out instead. It's a big world. It's logical to assume you don't have to do everything yourself. ;)

@bold: This is an aspect of my character in that I do think I have to do everything myself. My dad wanted to instill in me a sense of autonomy and instead he instilled in me an inability to ask for help except when I have been pushed so far I have no other choice.

I guess I just question my F based decision making since it seems to so easily gloss over reality. Although perhaps this is more a Pe problem than F. It just aggravates me when I make a decision that seems so utterly right and then it doesn't pan out the way I want/envision and the world ends. ;)

I can only speak from my perspective on what's an acceptable "blur". I think a lot of my "value" system is borrowed (Fe values), due to some spiritual beliefs and things I've read and thought about over time. It helped me get a perspective on being more humane and considerate. If I took a totally Ti Se viewpoint, I'd be trying to gain leverage on everyone around me. Which is how I used to think, give or take some exceptional moments.

I don't really have a logical basis for why I adopt some F ideas now.. a lot of it was first spurred on by guilt and just not wanting to be a dick anymore. These aren't really logical platforms to base my decisions on, but I think it's best to just ignore that. It's helped me in many ways, and that's good enough. And if anything, it's practical to be humane and consider others.

How you would come around to incorporating Te is kind of beyond me. But I think it can probably be done. Like the old saying goes, "if there's a will, there's a way". The fact that you desire some changes is already a change in itself. It'd be a bigger problem if you were completely oblivious. Maybe you just need to define and identify the exact areas where it's failing, and then simply take a slower, more methodical approach in these weak areas, rather than relying on your old "F" standby that's gotten you in trouble. Does that make sense? Basically, just take your time and learn from mistakes. This is Te at it's simplest.. this attention to doing things right. Some may even be obessesive about it. A lot of TJs dwell and think about process.. correct process, that is (you'll find that TPs probably frustrate them with a more ends/result based logic. So not even "logical" types are the same).

Yes... this is a course of action that I can try out. It could be a way to course correct the "rightness" of internal feeling with the reality of external situations.
 
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