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Solving the F Problem

A

Anew Leaf

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As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is. I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right. I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic. :)
 
W

WALMART

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I reckon feelings exist for a reason. I think of it as the whole of your thoughts in a brush stroke. I don't see a problem with following what they tell you, because as I am sure you are aware, people who compartmentalize their thoughts have equal opportunity to be wrong.


I don't think it's much a problem. Until they start telling you to kill someone :ninja:
 

Cellmold

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As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is. I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right. I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic. :)

Good topic and it's similar, although much less vitriolic, than the one I made about the point of feeling.

Honestly the intellectualisation of emotional content frightens me, because I adhere to it so strongly and i'm aware I do. However despite this there are times when I cannot stop the immediate reaction of this emotional content.

What's more even the positive emotions are frightening, after all what happens when they stop? It's like a drug; when i'm content I want the feeling to last forever and it is all the more bitter for me when it doesn't. So ive tried to prosper in spite of this, going against the emotions lest I fall into depression.

So far this appears to be a good move and has helped me move out of tragic cycles of emotional states that are of no use to me or those around me.
 
S

Society

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i think its a juggling act.

the way i see it, at various points in our early lives, we have encountered stressful situations of emotional dissonance and cognitive dissonance, which can conflict quite easily, and somehow, our brains have decided that one is more stressful and unbearable then the other, determining whether we'll be Feelers or Thinkers, and orienting our function order in order to better cope with the respective stress.

the reality is, we need to cope with both.
 

Halla74

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As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is.

As a "T" - I was emotionally under-developed until only a few years ago (aka, the tender age of 35).
I did not let my feelings rule my life, not at all.
And trust me, that course is completely screwed up to navigate also. :shock:
Try solving matters of the heart by building a quantitative decision model in MS Excel - yeah, a really bad idea, don't do it. :doh:

I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right...

You bring up an interesting point! :yes:
There are things I have VERY STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT, and those things are in line with my CORE VALUES.

So, to me, "Feelings" = ephemeral (potentially) - or even more simply "physiological feedback."
Whereas "Core Values", "Beliefs", and "Principles" are things that have solidified (and in my case for damn good reason) themselves into me over long periods of time.

I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

You don't have to question the (a) deep essence of yourself, or (b) your sanity.
I offer a third option.
Instead, consider questioning (c) how you felt based on what you knew about a given event at the time your feelings registered about it.

For instance, few will argue with the concept of "allowing one's self to become wiser as time moves on, and our knowledge and experience grows."
So, is it not also appropriate to consider "allowing yourself to feel differntly about things than you did in the past, based on what you've learned since those feelings were formed?" :thinking:

I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

It's not a problem unless this phenomena is somehow interfering with your ability to live a normal & productive life, IMHO.
It would be an interesting thing to keep tabs on over time for the sake of learning about yourself though.
Why not?
I did so with my feelings years ago, and it did a damn large bit of good in developing them in a short stretch of time.

I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic. :)

See above. :hifive:

:hug:

-Halla74
 

greenfairy

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Interesting, I can understand that. I personally distrust strong emotion and see positive emotion as in accordance with ultimate reality because it is consistent with knowing truth. "Negative" (unpleasant) emotions can come from both truth and illusion- illusion leads to suffering. I think there is a difference between unpleasant emotion and suffering. If the emotion is a natural reaction to real life and proportional to the situation it is healthy. I'm not sure I can identify with letting emotional states guide your choices- can you give an example? I would greatly like to have enough emotional balance to be able to do this. I think it comes from inner harmony and peace. What you say about questioning yourself I think comes from the fact that emotions if they are operating correctly tell about our well being. So if we are in a state of balance we can instantly know how we relate to the world without having to analytically evaluate it.

You don't have to question the (a) deep essence of yourself, or (b) your sanity.
I offer a third option.
Instead, consider questioning (c) how you felt based on what you knew about a given event at the time your feelings registered about it.

For instance, few will argue with the concept of "allowing one's self to become wiser as time moves on, and our knowledge and experience grows."
So, is it not also appropriate to consider "allowing yourself to feel differntly about things than you did in the past, based on what you've learned since those feelings were formed?" :thinking:
That seems like a healthy way to look at it. :)
 

miss fortune

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interesting view... like [MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION] I've tended to make decisions in some fairly horribly logical manners... mostly in my case drawing out the problem in a web on paper and drawing in various solutions and possible outcomes... I have decision sheets littering the area under my end table :doh: (I prefer to keep them for in case I question myself in the future... then I can see why I decided that...)

I think that either going purely on emotions or logic has it's fallbacks- when running a team of people I always made decisions that would affect all of us by consensus except for the last one- leaving... mostly because it let a variety of bases go into making the decisions and that seemed to work for the best... more factors considered equals better decisions I guess? :thinking:

I'm not one who really trusts their own feelings though... I'd pretty happily trade in the ability to feel from time to time- for those of y'all who DO trust them, more power to you! :)
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is. I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right. I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic. :)
I think you need both logic and emotion equally to be the most rational/logical person you can be. It made me think of this passage of a book I read called the "Happiness Hypothesis". I thought the author framed it in an interesting light.
Happy New Years!

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KDude

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Every so often, emotional (as well as perceptual) impulses tug at me.. and I've followed them at times.. but mostly the idea scares the crap out of me. Perhaps Perceptual thinking is even worse.. it's more out of control and irrational. At least Fi is "judgement" based, not irrational. In any case, if you desired to be logical, you'd probably have to experience the same kind of anxiety and want to step back and willfully be logical. If F based decisions don't alarm you the moment you're aware of them, then it's too natural for you to really step back. Perhaps you'd be better off with an outside source of logic, a friend, to help out instead. It's a big world. It's logical to assume you don't have to do everything yourself. ;)
 

Coriolis

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I think you need both logic and emotion equally to be the most rational/logical person you can be. It made think of this passage of a book I read called the "Happiness Hypothesis". I thought the author framed it in an interesting light.
I see logic as a process, and emotion as one of many inputs to that process. Ignoring emotion is as counterproductive as ignoring any other relevant data, as is according it too much importance.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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I should probably state that I am not trying to entirely replace my emotional system with logic per se.... I just wonder where the edges blur a bit. The decisions and ideas that I have that are spurred solely on emotion with no basis in reality give me pause to think at times... but that push of the emotion is almost too strong to ignore because...... AMGS THE POSSIBILITIES, etc.

Edit: I will reply to everyone tomorrow. Thanks for the ideas. C:
 

KDude

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I should probably state that I am not trying to entirely replace my emotional system with logic per se.... I just wonder where the edges blur a bit. The decisions and ideas that I have that are spurred solely on emotion with no basis in reality give me pause to think at times... but that push of the emotion is almost too strong to ignore because...... AMGS THE POSSIBILITIES, etc.

Edit: I will reply to everyone tomorrow. Thanks for the ideas. C:

I can only speak from my perspective on what's an acceptable "blur". I think a lot of my "value" system is borrowed (Fe values), due to some spiritual beliefs and things I've read and thought about over time. It helped me get a perspective on being more humane and considerate. If I took a totally Ti Se viewpoint, I'd be trying to gain leverage on everyone around me. Which is how I used to think, give or take some exceptional moments.

I don't really have a logical basis for why I adopt some F ideas now.. a lot of it was first spurred on by guilt and just not wanting to be a dick anymore. These aren't really logical platforms to base my decisions on, but I think it's best to just ignore that. It's helped me in many ways, and that's good enough. And if anything, it's practical to be humane and consider others.

How you would come around to incorporating Te is kind of beyond me. But I think it can probably be done. Like the old saying goes, "if there's a will, there's a way". The fact that you desire some changes is already a change in itself. It'd be a bigger problem if you were completely oblivious. Maybe you just need to define and identify the exact areas where it's failing, and then simply take a slower, more methodical approach in these weak areas, rather than relying on your old "F" standby that's gotten you in trouble. Does that make sense? Basically, just take your time and learn from mistakes. This is Te at it's simplest.. this attention to doing things right. Some may even be obessesive about it. A lot of TJs dwell and think about process.. correct process, that is (you'll find that TPs probably frustrate them with a more ends/result based logic. So not even "logical" types are the same).
 

EcK

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I think you need both logic and emotion equally to be the most rational/logical person you can be. It made me think of this passage of a book I read called the "Happiness Hypothesis". I thought the author framed it in an interesting light.
Happy New Years!

page1_zps171dd910.jpg

page2_zps9c71191e.jpg

Welll, that's pretty much what I often do. There's some emotional content (aka my two emotions of excited and bored) but overall my choices go heavily through of process of pros and cons for new stuff or abnormal situations.
 

Ponyboy

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As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is. I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right. I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic. :)

My emotions are the only thing I trust without question. This actually reminds me of a joke I used to say at a place I worked at years ago, "don't bring logic into this, it will only screw things up!" (and that was before I knew anything about typology). I hope you don't ever change(I absolutely adore your spirit!) or doubt yourself. I offer you a quote that was given to me many years ago when I too was questioning things..."There is nothing wrong with you, its everybody else that has it wrong!" :D
 

INTP

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I think its important to be able to consciously judge when to listen you F response and how much to give it weight in the given situation(applies to all types). Naturally there are some instances where its obvious that F response matters more than T and others where its the other way around, but at times there are situations where you cant just intuitively know that, and need to stop to compare what T says and what F says and judge between them. Personally(might not work for you since im TiFe) i tend to compile two different big pictures, one from the point of view of T and one from F. Basically when compiling the big picture, im trying to look every individual aspect in it separately and sort of give it % of yes or no(or i dont really use the %, but its the closest thing it can be translated to and its actually more like 100% = 2x 85% type of thing than actual percentages(and sometimes it might be 80% = 2x 20%, it kinda varies on situations), complicated to explain, but i can do that instantly), which push the big picture more towards yes or no based on its %. and after forming this big picture, i try to see it the result i got for the T big picture seems about right, sort of double check it. Then i do the same thing with F and compare the F %yes and no to T% yes and no, then if its not obvious answer, i tend to compare the two using T.

This process might last anywhere from 10 seconds to 20 mins depending on the issue at hand and all its complications. But i dont have to think like that too often, often its just "would be nice to do X, but on the other hand Y, so i rather do Z". Its basically the more important the issue is, more precisely i evaluate every single aspect of it and i dont need to think about %'s as numbers, but its more like some sort of marker that i dont need to give conscious/concrete value to, but it keeps its value in comparison to other things nevertheless, kinda hard to explain :p .

Maybe it might work with FiTe too, since ur using NeSi, since after all T and F are still T and F regardless of whether they are E or I.
 

Tiltyred

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There's a system called Human Design that you might be interested in. If you are what's called an Emotionally Defined being, then your slogan is "There is no truth in the now," and to know whether or not your emotions should be acted upon, you should wait a certain period of time before you act on them. It might be worth investigating. It has helped me a good bit to understand that I'm NOT emotionally defined, and my cues to act should come from elsewhere. My emotions are transient and not cues for me to act upon.
 

greenfairy

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While I've said I don't base decisions on emotions per se, I do use my personal feelings a lot in the process- but my main objection to the distinction is that most decisions I can think of relate to me and my life and what is good for me and would make me happy- so I really don't see the distinction. A decision really isn't good if it doesn't make you happy, and you can't really make something happen without logic and rational evaluation. Maybe I think too much, but I think these thinking and feeling distinctions are mostly just arbitrary and don't really mean anything.

Anyone disagree, and why? Can someone give me a clear example in which there is a decision to be made which has two clear choices based on Thinking and Feeling, both of which are equally good, or a decision with a good answer which could be reached by both these methods of thought?
 

OrangeAppled

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I have a problem with giving into moods. These don't influence my judgements about what is important or what is right, but they can influence my actions, even as I know they are not beneficial to me in the long run.

I actually had a hard time giving weight to my emotions in decision-making though. I experience Feeling as rational, and the separation of the two was clear to me. Unlike Thinking, there is a greater need for Feeling & emotions to be in harmony, IMO. The inner turmoil caused by a disharmony is always present with a Fi-dom. Reconciling the two is something we may take a lot of time and energy to do. When they are out of sync, a great Bad Mood descends...

For me, these three are NOT the same:

Feeling - I experience this as rational, as it's a form of thinking (8 forms of it ;) ). Before I learned MBTI/Jungian terminology, I would have called this thinking, forming lines of reasoning, rational analysis, and perhaps even a form of logic. I distinguish it as Feeling now because I see my core premise is always an unconditional human value; what is this worth, what does it mean - in relation to being a person? Nearly everything is personal then, not in an emotional way, but in a way that acknowledges the impact things have on people. And when something is not personal, then it, frankly, doesn't interest me much. This is how I know I am a Fi-dom.

Moods - These are very much the transient states mentioned in the OP. It's hard for me not to live in them. They affect my demeanor more than anything. They are often at odds with my feeling. They even get in the way of my clarifying my own emotions to myself, and finding something useful in my emotions; I have to work hard to distinguish them from my real emotion. These have become the enemy for me, and for years they tried to fool me into thinking my Feeling and real emotions were not to be trusted, that they were far too idealistic. I used to deal with them by isolating myself a lot, so as not to inflict myself on others when moody. I think that was a mistake; I allowed them to control me. Now I just kind of try to push through it, so that I can get to the bottom of things & find my real emotion.

Emotions - For me, these signify value, absence of it, violation of it, etc. This is my brain's way of saying - "pay attention to this area" or of supporting a valuation. I certainly consider emotions when making decisions, but they are not all I consider. Understanding WHY I have a certain emotion is the hardest part. Once I am able to dissect it thoroughly, then rarely do I find an emotion is useless. I used to not listen to my emotions much at all, feeling that when they were at odds with my Feeling that I simply was not disciplined enough. I confused my moods with emotions & emotions with moods. I felt all the restrictions of being a Feeling type, but none of the benefits; I was GOOD, but not happy or warm. I made responsible choices, but I didn't fill my needs or anyone else's. I didn't wrong people, but I couldn't connect with them. I refined my Feeling judgements by allowing my emotions some validity. I took them into account, as significant data. It helped me to better see what I need, and in turn, what people in general need, and that there's no shame in NEED.
 

Coriolis

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While I've said I don't base decisions on emotions per se, I do use my personal feelings a lot in the process- but my main objection to the distinction is that most decisions I can think of relate to me and my life and what is good for me and would make me happy- so I really don't see the distinction. A decision really isn't good if it doesn't make you happy, and you can't really make something happen without logic and rational evaluation. Maybe I think too much, but I think these thinking and feeling distinctions are mostly just arbitrary and don't really mean anything.

Anyone disagree, and why? Can someone give me a clear example in which there is a decision to be made which has two clear choices based on Thinking and Feeling, both of which are equally good, or a decision with a good answer which could be reached by both these methods of thought?
There is happy and happy, with the distinction based on which time scale one is considering. Someone with a stressful job who has had a particularly bad day may feel that quitting will make them happy. They will have the satisfaction of telling the boss what they really think of the job, and the relief of knowing they will never have to return to that negative environment again. Having no job, however, may quite well bring more unhappiness in the longer term. A thinking-based decision involves more planning and premeditation: e.g. tolerating the unpleasant job while networking to find a better one, and leaving only after that future is secured. While the logic here is clear, the feeling function is present as well, since one is weighing competing personal values. In fact, this is a good example of the two working together. The first option (quit precipitously), by contrast, overrelies not so much on feeling as a function, but rather on emotion as an input to the process. An important decision based on emotion is likely to be less sound in the long term, but both thinking and feeling as functions can be used to resist the pull of the immediate emotion in favor of something more lasting.
 

KDude

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I wouldn't chalk up impulsive job-quitting to F.. I've done it many times. A lot of the forecasting and preparation may very well be Ni or Si. TPs still inhabit the moment like FPs. The logic comes into play in on the fly manuevering. But they can lose their grounding as well, find themselves on their asses, realizing they're not as clever as they think. At least STPs don't think about the future enough. Not sure I could say the same for NTP, but I think they share a lot in common.
 
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