# Thread: Solving the F Problem

1. Originally Posted by Ponyboy
My emotions are the only thing I trust without question. This actually reminds me of a joke I used to say at a place I worked at years ago, "don't bring logic into this, it will only screw things up!" (and that was before I knew anything about typology). I hope you don't ever change(I absolutely adore your spirit!) or doubt yourself. I offer you a quote that was given to me many years ago when I too was questioning things..."There is nothing wrong with you, its everybody else that has it wrong!"
I used to just blindly and blithely trust my emotions no matter what. Now I am taking stock of where some of these choices have lead me and I am displeased at the end result... primarily because I didn't really think of an end result.

Originally Posted by INTP
I think its important to be able to consciously judge when to listen you F response and how much to give it weight in the given situation(applies to all types). Naturally there are some instances where its obvious that F response matters more than T and others where its the other way around, but at times there are situations where you cant just intuitively know that, and need to stop to compare what T says and what F says and judge between them. Personally(might not work for you since im TiFe) i tend to compile two different big pictures, one from the point of view of T and one from F. Basically when compiling the big picture, im trying to look every individual aspect in it separately and sort of give it % of yes or no(or i dont really use the %, but its the closest thing it can be translated to and its actually more like 100% = 2x 85% type of thing than actual percentages(and sometimes it might be 80% = 2x 20%, it kinda varies on situations), complicated to explain, but i can do that instantly), which push the big picture more towards yes or no based on its %. and after forming this big picture, i try to see it the result i got for the T big picture seems about right, sort of double check it. Then i do the same thing with F and compare the F %yes and no to T% yes and no, then if its not obvious answer, i tend to compare the two using T.

This process might last anywhere from 10 seconds to 20 mins depending on the issue at hand and all its complications. But i dont have to think like that too often, often its just "would be nice to do X, but on the other hand Y, so i rather do Z". Its basically the more important the issue is, more precisely i evaluate every single aspect of it and i dont need to think about %'s as numbers, but its more like some sort of marker that i dont need to give conscious/concrete value to, but it keeps its value in comparison to other things nevertheless, kinda hard to explain :P .

Maybe it might work with FiTe too, since ur using NeSi, since after all T and F are still T and F regardless of whether they are E or I.
Lol, I get the gist of it, thanks.

Originally Posted by Tiltyred
There's a system called Human Design that you might be interested in. If you are what's called an Emotionally Defined being, then your slogan is "There is no truth in the now," and to know whether or not your emotions should be acted upon, you should wait a certain period of time before you act on them. It might be worth investigating. It has helped me a good bit to understand that I'm NOT emotionally defined, and my cues to act should come from elsewhere. My emotions are transient and not cues for me to act upon.
I may have found it online. Is this what you are refering to?

Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
I have a problem with giving into moods. These don't influence my judgements about what is important or what is right, but they can influence my actions, even as I know they are not beneficial to me in the long run.

I actually had a hard time giving weight to my emotions in decision-making though. I experience Feeling as rational, and the separation of the two was clear to me. Unlike Thinking, there is a greater need for Feeling & emotions to be in harmony, IMO. The inner turmoil caused by a disharmony is always present with a Fi-dom. Reconciling the two is something we may take a lot of time and energy to do. When they are out of sync, a great Bad Mood descends...

For me, these three are NOT the same:

Feeling - I experience this as rational, as it's a form of thinking (8 forms of it ). Before I learned MBTI/Jungian terminology, I would have called this thinking, forming lines of reasoning, rational analysis, and perhaps even a form of logic. I distinguish it as Feeling now because I see my core premise is always an unconditional human value; what is this worth, what does it mean - in relation to being a person? Nearly everything is personal then, not in an emotional way, but in a way that acknowledges the impact things have on people. And when something is not personal, then it, frankly, doesn't interest me much. This is how I know I am a Fi-dom.

Moods - These are very much the transient states mentioned in the OP. It's hard for me not to live in them. They affect my demeanor more than anything. They are often at odds with my feeling. They even get in the way of my clarifying my own emotions to myself, and finding something useful in my emotions; I have to work hard to distinguish them from my real emotion. These have become the enemy for me, and for years they tried to fool me into thinking my Feeling and real emotions were not to be trusted, that they were far too idealistic. I used to deal with them by isolating myself a lot, so as not to inflict myself on others when moody. I think that was a mistake; I allowed them to control me. Now I just kind of try to push through it, so that I can get to the bottom of things & find my real emotion.

Emotions - For me, these signify value, absence of it, violation of it, etc. This is my brain's way of saying - "pay attention to this area" or of supporting a valuation. I certainly consider emotions when making decisions, but they are not all I consider. Understanding WHY I have a certain emotion is the hardest part. Once I am able to dissect it thoroughly, then rarely do I find an emotion is useless. I used to not listen to my emotions much at all, feeling that when they were at odds with my Feeling that I simply was not disciplined enough. I confused my moods with emotions & emotions with moods. I felt all the restrictions of being a Feeling type, but none of the benefits; I was GOOD, but not happy or warm. I made responsible choices, but I didn't fill my needs or anyone else's. I didn't wrong people, but I couldn't connect with them. I refined my Feeling judgements by allowing my emotions some validity. I took them into account, as significant data. It helped me to better see what I need, and in turn, what people in general need, and that there's no shame in NEED.
This is really wonderful, thank you... I identify so much with it all. I like the differentiating of moods - feelings - emotions. Perhaps my issue is one of acting on moods rather than well thought out rationalizations that are based in a calm decision. My moods have been my enemy for my entire life as well, and I have done the isolation thing for long periods of time. I did a 6 month isolation this past year that I am currently trying to struggle out of.

I need to think more on this, but your post was brilliant and insightful to what I was really trying to get at in my OP.

Originally Posted by Coriolis
In considering your comments, I realize I don't think of options in terms of thinking or feeling, just sound/unsound, effective/ineffective, or even feasible/unfeasible. Of course, having strong Te-aux, that is my primary yardstick in making these assessments. I actually make very few decisions using a process driven primarily by Te, though.

My decisions are usually Ni-based, in that after absorbing a certain amount of information about the situation (often less than I should), I simply "see" what appears to be the best option. It is at this point that I engage Te to analyze this perception. A large part of this analysis is considering pros and cons, costs and benefits of the indicated option. This is where Fi comes in, since in determining whether a possible benefit is worth the cost, I must engage my values - what is important to me, and what lines I will not cross in order to get something. Sometimes I realize I have conflicting values or priorities, at which point I engage Te again to determine the root of the inconsistency, then revisit the analysis.
This is a great breakdown of your process, thank you. I can see it very clearly.

Originally Posted by skylights
I don't experience much feels right - is right conflict, but I have only recently been learning to differentiate my moods from my feelings, as OA has also described. For a very long time I let my moods overwhelmingly dictate my behavior, and it's particularly in the context of my relationship (sorry guys I really am sx to the max) that I have been forced to mentally split between "I am angry at you now" and "I want us to be together in the long term". I feel like I have to fight back the dragon inside myself to make a better decision, like trying to speak calmly and give the benefit of the doubt instead of yelling. It's a learning process, that's for sure.

I actually wonder if there's not some kind of FP correlate to this, in that Fi and Ti are more "timeless" in nature than Fe and Te, and therefore subjective validation and aiming for what "should" be is more important than objective influence and immediate delivery of results. Combine that with the exploratory, holistic nature of Se and Ne, and you wind up with Ps being much more likely to behave spontaneously and to feel more comfortable with less consistent behavior.
I like a lot of what you say here. I am forever reaching for the idealistic should be of who I am or what I should have/do in my life. And I am hyperaware of the disconnect between what I am reaching for and what is actually reached.

Originally Posted by Fluffywolf
If you're a feeler and chose the 'feeler way', but still it turned out you were 'wrong' or think you could have had better results if you approached differently. At least you have been true to yourself and were able to learn from it. For a feeler it would still be much better than trying to ignore those feelings and attempt to go with a 'rational' approach, which is likely to cause a much bigger fallout.
This is another good point. I remember when I was going to have to put my pet bunny down and I didn't want to at all... but I felt like I needed to "T" up and consider the pros and cons and act rationally. Instead all it did was make me absolutely paralyzed in making a final decision. Finally I decided to approach it from the emotional standpoint and it was so simple: my pet is old and her quality of life isn't great therefore it is a kindness for me to put her down.

Originally Posted by Little Linguist
First, yes, it is a topic, and a good one at that.

Similarly, I have encountered the situation when I have correctly perceived a situation, but jumped to the wrong conclusion. For example, let's say I notice someone is acting in a peculiar manner, and I pick up they are distressed. Indeed, they will be, but sometimes I will figure out the wrong reason due to a lack of information. And if I do not discuss the matter, I might react in a way inappropriate to the actual problem.

Making decisions can be an issue as well. Acting on feelings is not necessarily a problem, whereas acting on *impulse* has nearly always proven detrimental. My coping mechanism: sleep on it. Usually my first impression is not accurate, and upon more pondering and mulling in my mind (not always conscious, can also be while sleeping) I come to a more accurate result.Of course, the problem is getting myself to take that time out. Feelings + thought + action. But sometimes you just want to dooooo something.
I can identify a ton with everything you say here too. Especially on the first bold. That is a big part of my problem. I "see" something and then it's not true and I'm like, how the heck did this happen!? I thought I was being careful! I think part of this is that I am very very good with body language and vocal intonations in others and so very often I am picking up on things that people themselves aren't aware of... and this gives me the impression that I am always right or that I can read minds or something. (Sadly, I cannot.)

Originally Posted by Mane
there's a little baby ISTJ nodding it's head from the reverse order of every ENFP. wake her up.
If it's Patches, then I am ok with that. Otherwise... PASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

2. Originally Posted by Coriolis
As an INFJ, you would follow a similar process, checking your intuitions first with Fe, then engaging Ti (perhaps to see whether the values applied by Fe are consistent? Not sure as this function is not in my higher preferences). As for tests, my method often works there, too. What seems to be a correct answer (or best way to organize an essay) comes to me, then I validate and modify it with Te. I usually needn't engage much Fi on tests, though.

3. Originally Posted by Saturned
If it's Patches, then I am ok with that. Otherwise... PASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
how would a panda fit inside of you?

4. Originally Posted by Mane
how would a panda fit inside of you?
So many inappropriate jokes... so little time.

5. feeling is about worth, quality, embodiment.
thinking is about likelihood, quantitative measurement, concrete simulation.

thinkers are better at testing against specific criteria. they are more exacting because they calculate all the way down to material effects before they explain outcomes.
feelers are better at taking the whole of something into consideration. they move through affectations that help them know and relate to what the outcome would be like. by focusing on broader bodily criteria, we have a way of relating to what it's like to be human, alive, hungry, tired, etc. it puts the decision in terms of a larger ecology of things rather than in very narrowly defined ones. but, as a result, it's way more difficult measuring and requires a great deal of balance to manage so that it is not entirely fickle, ephemeral, and whimsical. it's highly, highly necessary for social mammals like us in order to manage complex social orders and relationships with others as valid as ourselves (emotion = a constant prioritization process. ours is socially distributed to include social values that are marked in language and other social indices to give a sense of the worth/priority).

rationality is based on the word ratio. being T = measuring shit all the damn time. to get to measurability requires constant definition. which requires constant testing to define objects and rules for their ways of interacting with each other. it is incredibly mathematical. it is very conscious of the units employed at all times, which requires concrete objectification.
F is necessary to personally relate with the source of life flowing through you all the way down to your toes in the cold, wet grass. it's what provides belief to act in the face of inescapable uncertainty. to be motivated to choose at all. and to have an abundance of love to make you strong.

6. Originally Posted by the state i am in
feeling is about worth, quality, embodiment.
What would be the best way for a T to react, when the F dismembers her- or himself again ? Like my gf just called me and told me that she'll be visiting her Mum tomorrow for an hour to have a coffee. That means she'll be driving 300 miles, just to have a coffee with her and that tho we are broke after xmas. I just said "Ahmm" at the phone, but I really want to kick her ass.

Is there a way to hold some "quality / quantity" balance in a F/T relationship or is the lesser dominant partner in the relationship doomened to generally give in a bit more ? (and I dont mean to measure that, just looking for a way of coping with it to feel better myself)

7. Originally Posted by Saturned
As an F, I've been comfortable allowing my emotional state to influence and guide my life. However, I often wonder how wise this is. I mean, the emotional state is so ephemeral, and it bothers me when something feels right and then I discover it's not actually right. I feel like I am then questioning the deep essence of myself or my sanity or both.

I am not even sure if this is really a problem here, or just the nature of the beast of which I should be aware.

I'm primarily curious if anyone has any thoughts, their own experiences, etc about this topic... if it IS a topic.
I don't even have a choice. I've tried, but I can't change who I am, so I say just go with it.

8. Originally Posted by the state i am in
feeling is about worth, quality, embodiment.
thinking is about likelihood, quantitative measurement, concrete simulation.

thinkers are better at testing against specific criteria. they are more exacting because they calculate all the way down to material effects before they explain outcomes.
feelers are better at taking the whole of something into consideration. they move through affectations that help them know and relate to what the outcome would be like. by focusing on broader bodily criteria, we have a way of relating to what it's like to be human, alive, hungry, tired, etc. it puts the decision in terms of a larger ecology of things rather than in very narrowly defined ones. but, as a result, it's way more difficult measuring and requires a great deal of balance to manage so that it is not entirely fickle, ephemeral, and whimsical. it's highly, highly necessary for social mammals like us in order to manage complex social orders and relationships with others as valid as ourselves (emotion = a constant prioritization process. ours is socially distributed to include social values that are marked in language and other social indices to give a sense of the worth/priority).

rationality is based on the word ratio. being T = measuring shit all the damn time. to get to measurability requires constant definition. which requires constant testing to define objects and rules for their ways of interacting with each other. it is incredibly mathematical. it is very conscious of the units employed at all times, which requires concrete objectification.
F is necessary to personally relate with the source of life flowing through you all the way down to your toes in the cold, wet grass. it's what provides belief to act in the face of inescapable uncertainty. to be motivated to choose at all. and to have an abundance of love to make you strong.
This is a very lovely breakdown! [Especially at bold.] (Anytime etymology gets involved... ) Although I wonder if your definition of "T" here isn't more Ti based...?

As always, you give me much brain food. *inner type 5 engorges herself*

Originally Posted by entropie
What would be the best way for a T to react, when the F dismembers her- or himself again ? Like my gf just called me and told me that she'll be visiting her Mum tomorrow for an hour to have a coffee. That means she'll be driving 300 miles, just to have a coffee with her and that tho we are broke after xmas. I just said "Ahmm" at the phone, but I really want to kick her ass.

Is there a way to hold some "quality / quantity" balance in a F/T relationship or is the lesser dominant partner in the relationship doomened to generally give in a bit more ? (and I dont mean to measure that, just looking for a way of coping with it to feel better myself)
Hmm, if it was me, I would want the facts presented to me a in a calm/rational manner. With an acknowledgement that it's understood that seeing my mother is important, and that there is perhaps a better time to do it. Like, for a weekend so that the 300 miles isn't as big of a hit.

I would also want to have it presented in a team way like that for the betterment of us both, we make choices that don't damage either of us or us period. Ie, if money is an issue, I don't drive 300 miles, and he doesn't buy a new cellphone, etc.

/just me though.

Originally Posted by Tigerlily
I don't even have a choice. I've tried, but I can't change who I am, so I say just go with it.
Hmm, haha! But there is ALWAYS A CHOICE!! I dislike the concept that I am a puppet being strung along (pun intended) by any factors other than my own will power... and I readily acknowledge that I am frequently held captive by many things.

9. Originally Posted by entropie
What would be the best way for a T to react, when the F dismembers her- or himself again ? Like my gf just called me and told me that she'll be visiting her Mum tomorrow for an hour to have a coffee. That means she'll be driving 300 miles, just to have a coffee with her and that tho we are broke after xmas. I just said "Ahmm" at the phone, but I really want to kick her ass.

Is there a way to hold some "quality / quantity" balance in a F/T relationship or is the lesser dominant partner in the relationship doomened to generally give in a bit more ? (and I dont mean to measure that, just looking for a way of coping with it to feel better myself)
to play the feeling game, you've got to be willing to explain where you're at and listen to where she's at apart from what makes sense to you. you have to figure out why it makes sense to her. or why it's worth it even tho it's problematic in other ways.

10. Originally Posted by Saturned
Hmm, if it was me, I would want the facts presented to me a in a calm/rational manner. With an acknowledgement that it's understood that seeing my mother is important, and that there is perhaps a better time to do it. Like, for a weekend so that the 300 miles isn't as big of a hit.
This would be ideal yes. But you can forget about that with a dom Fi. If I'ld insist on that it would mean to surpress her, cause Fi works without reasoning. Its a thing which I think is important to understand. Cause our whole society is build on reasoning and if you just aint like that, life can be very complicated for you. The whole family on my gf side is a very lovely one; I'ld wish for having such a family. They are all F-types and the things my gf learnt there aint in no ways compatible to what you'ld call 'normal' in society nor reasonable. No matter where I go with her she tends to stick out due to her inherent unconventionalness.

I very much like that in her, cause I love sticking out and besides that I think this society sucks and they deserve to be shown that every day. The only problem tho is that sometimes you could have it easier with people, if you play by the rules. But because my gf is blind to that, she always has a hard time in her job, friends or even in the supermarket.

I would also want to have it presented in a team way like that for the betterment of us both, we make choices that don't damage either of us or us period. Ie, if money is an issue, I don't drive 300 miles, and he doesn't buy a new cellphone, etc.

/just me though.
This would be my attitude as well. Furthermore - and I think you agree - I like a relationship that evolves, meaning I dont form a relationship with a partner and we dont change each others. I like to evolve in the relationship, learn new things get better at things I suck at and its a constant progress in which both parties need to have the desire to learn from each other for me.

It would be awful for me, if I had just to play the game of my partner and see now learning curve regarding my world in her.

Originally Posted by the state i am in
to play the feeling game, you've got to be willing to explain where you're at and listen to where she's at apart from what makes sense to you. you have to figure out why it makes sense to her. or why it's worth it even tho it's problematic in other ways.
The problem with feelers is that they can turn everything into a matter of importance by justifieing it with the words 'cause I want to'. Its no objective way of reasoning, its your subjective gut feeling in the moment that turns things important or not. My problem with that is, I find it puzzling. She can be fighting with her Mum for a day, the next day then they can be big friends again and the next day the fight again; it's like a rollercoaster with no stop button. I have found at some point tho that basically this doesnt concern me at all and since I am living it that way it has become easier. I dont tell my gf what to do, I let her roam free and tend to wait for her at the end of her roads to pick her up when she got lost again. Being strong in Intuition helps you a lot in that regards cause you can better foresee where some unreasonable decisions will lead again.

Besides from the hard facts there is something even more important. Thru her I have learnt to follow my own subjective wants and desires. I on the other hand seldom do things - even if I want - if they aint reasonable. And just stepping into a car and driving 300 miles for no good reason can be really freeing at times. It helps a lot to feel better in a grey allday life. Maybe thats something that comes with age, but her haphazard being is a source of neverending inspiration for me. And I think nothing better could happen to an entp.

To me its just important - and that was the original question - that she doesnt stop to try to see things like I do as well. Cause if I had the impression that she wouldnt need to learn anything from me, life or in general then I'ld be disappointed. Cause I think its important that you always learn in life and never come to the point in which you just impose your feelings and way to see things onto others all the time, without paying respect to other peoples wishes, ideas or different beings.

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