SiNe Discussion

[Anew Leaf]

I thought it would be fun to start a discussion of the SiNe cognitive function spectrum. So since I come from the land of Fi, I will start with my take on how the system works. Then if anyone has things to add or questions or pretty pictures to show, they can post as desired.

Some key things to start off with:

1- The present is an overwhelming set of information that often doesn't make much sense until it's in the past.
2- The past then is more "alive" to us than the present is because it is more understandable and finite.
3- SiNe is like an interlocking web of data with data points (Si) and endless branching off connection points (Ne) going all over the place.

Problem Areas:

1- We can be "blind" to the present moment and implications of actions that lay therein simply because there is too much going on.
2- We can overlay and interweave past experiences with current experiences as a means of understanding the current experience, but ultimately miss out on the current experience.
3- We can make assumptions based on false information that can cause a bad iteration throughout the system.
4- There can be a tendency to descend into "what happened is what should then happen in the future."


I find that the present moment represents way too much information that I don't know what to do with most of the time. I get by as best I can by guessing as to what is important/pertinent to the moment based on past experiences of priority lists. Completely new experiences where I have nothing in the past to draw from, are terrifying at times and can be paralyzing. There is simply too much going on via the senses, what is being said, and what is being experienced. It's difficult to figure out what is needed in this moment. It's only when one has the distance and detachment that time can give, that things start assembling into a reasonable order.

The gift then is that when one can study what happened, that patterns and ideas can emerge and ultimately an understanding of what occured. There is a sense that the past is finite and from that an infinite realm of possibilities and connections can be created.

I think this is where a need for repetition can come into play. I enjoy reading books several times and seeing movies several times in order to extract all of the information I need/want out of it. The first pass is the most confusing because there is a lot going on and I am not always confident I know what elements to be focusing in on. A later read has relieved me of the burden of constantly wondering what is going to happen, and instead allows me to enjoy what is going on. Then I can think about how the elements work together, what patterns I see, hidden connections, etc. I often get frustrated/annoyed when major events occur that shut down the current range of possibilities. I am not immediately appreciative of what new possibilities have now sprung forth from these actions until some time has elapsed. For example, in the "Game of Thrones" series, major characters die a lot. The first big death completely ticked me off because I hadn't seen it coming, and I didn't see why that person had to die, and I was completely emo. I first reread the prior 100 pages or so out of a desire to see what I had missed the first time, and it wasn't until a good book or two later that I truly understood why that character died and what new possibilities had followed their death. That information was just not understandable for me to get in the moment. Now that I have learned about this, I am more aware of when major events happen, and I can encourage myself to try and see the situation for what it is. But this is not my natural thought pattern and is not easily available and it isn't necessarily trusted... yet.

I think repetition can help be the bridge from Si to Se in a strange sort of way. This past summer I went white water rafting for the first time and it was a new spur of the moment idea. I was traveling to a region where it was an option and I decided on a "near whim of the moment" that I was going to do it. However, the idea of just doing this with no prior knowledge was too much, and so I spent a few hours researching the topic. Having this kind of knowledge ahead of time gave me the prep I needed in order to feel much more confident that I wouldn't be overwhelmed by this experience. It especially helped getting through the first set of rapids and understanding that A: I wasn't going to die, and B: It felt really fun. I surprised myself by how much I enjoyed it, and I look forward to doing it again in the future.

I see issues that crop up in myself and other Si-users where the past is used to explain the present, without really seeing what the present is offering. A similar situation occurs to one that happened in the past, and that can trigger the manifestation of those data points and branching paths to overlay onto the current situation. This can be used for both positive and negative situations. The issue of doing this that isn't immediately obvious is that the situation isn't being looked at for its own unique set of reality points. This can occur a lot in interpersonal relationships and cause issues.

I have a lot more I could say, but my mind is branching out all over the place now. I'll stop here for now and see what others have to say.

 

[JAVO]

Interesting thoughts, but I just can't get past thinking of the CoSiNe, and of course, the ever-present tangent.

 

[NPcomplete]

Interesting thoughts, but I just can't get past thinking of the CoSiNe, and of course, the ever-present tangent.

I came here for the sinusoidal graphs but it is as a happy customer that I'm leaving.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Interesting thoughts, but I just can't get past thinking of the CoSiNe, and of course, the ever-present tangent.

Haha! I know. I was having bad (si!!!) flashbacks to trignometry.

I came here for the sinusoidal graphs but it is as a happy customer that I'm leaving.

you should post some graphs, my onion. This thread clearly needs more pictures.

 

[SD45T-2]

I think repetition can help be the bridge from Si to Se in a strange sort of way. This past summer I went white water rafting for the first time and it was a new spur of the moment idea. I was traveling to a region where it was an option and I decided on a "near whim of the moment" that I was going to do it. However, the idea of just doing this with no prior knowledge was too much, and so I spent a few hours researching the topic. Having this kind of knowledge ahead of time gave me the prep I needed in order to feel much more confident that I wouldn't be overwhelmed by this experience. It especially helped getting through the first set of rapids and understanding that A: I wasn't going to die, and B: It felt really fun. I surprised myself by how much I enjoyed it, and I look forward to doing it again in the future.

Awesome. I've done the south fork of the American River a few times and I'd like to do the middle fork some day. Purple monkey dishwasher.

 

[Such Irony]

I thought it would be fun to start a discussion of the SiNe cognitive function spectrum. So since I come from the land of Fi, I will start with my take on how the system works. Then if anyone has things to add or questions or pretty pictures to show, they can post as desired.

Some key things to start off with:

1- The present is an overwhelming set of information that often doesn't make much sense until it's in the past.
2- The past then is more "alive" to us than the present is because it is more understandable and finite.
3- SiNe is like an interlocking web of data with data points (Si) and endless branching off connection points (Ne) going all over the place.

Problem Areas:

1- We can be "blind" to the present moment and implications of actions that lay therein simply because there is too much going on.
2- We can overlay and interweave past experiences with current experiences as a means of understanding the current experience, but ultimately miss out on the current experience.
3- We can make assumptions based on false information that can cause a bad iteration throughout the system.
4- There can be a tendency to descend into "what happened is what should then happen in the future."

Well said. As a fellow SiNe user what you say matches up well with my experience as well. I'd be interested in seeing a similar article for NiSe. I'm guessing that they wouldn't get so overwhelmed by data in the present but wouldn't be as good as drawing information from the past. So they might not learn as well from past mistakes.

I find that the present moment represents way too much information that I don't know what to do with most of the time. I get by as best I can by guessing as to what is important/pertinent to the moment based on past experiences of priority lists. Completely new experiences where I have nothing in the past to draw from, are terrifying at times and can be paralyzing. There is simply too much going on via the senses, what is being said, and what is being experienced. It's difficult to figure out what is needed in this moment. It's only when one has the distance and detachment that time can give, that things start assembling into a reasonable order.

The gift then is that when one can study what happened, that patterns and ideas can emerge and ultimately an understanding of what occured. There is a sense that the past is finite and from that an infinite realm of possibilities and connections can be created.

Once again, this matches up very well with my experience.

I think this is where a need for repetition can come into play. I enjoy reading books several times and seeing movies several times in order to extract all of the information I need/want out of it. The first pass is the most confusing because there is a lot going on and I am not always confident I know what elements to be focusing in on. A later read has relieved me of the burden of constantly wondering what is going to happen, and instead allows me to enjoy what is going on. Then I can think about how the elements work together, what patterns I see, hidden connections, etc. I often get frustrated/annoyed when major events occur that shut down the current range of possibilities. I am not immediately appreciative of what new possibilities have now sprung forth from these actions until some time has elapsed. For example, in the "Game of Thrones" series, major characters die a lot. The first big death completely ticked me off because I hadn't seen it coming, and I didn't see why that person had to die, and I was completely emo. I first reread the prior 100 pages or so out of a desire to see what I had missed the first time, and it wasn't until a good book or two later that I truly understood why that character died and what new possibilities had followed their death. That information was just not understandable for me to get in the moment. Now that I have learned about this, I am more aware of when major events happen, and I can encourage myself to try and see the situation for what it is. But this is not my natural thought pattern and is not easily available and it isn't necessarily trusted... yet.

I always associated a need for repetition with Si more than Ne. In particular the Ne dominants seem to want the constant variety in change but maybe they too want repetition on certain things.

I sometimes find certain movies hard to follow the first time around. Sometimes I end up not quite getting it because I ended up focusing on the wrong things because I just couldn't focus on it all the first time so my brain had to pick and choose.

In particular, the bolded statement above is true of me.

I think repetition can help be the bridge from Si to Se in a strange sort of way. This past summer I went white water rafting for the first time and it was a new spur of the moment idea. I was traveling to a region where it was an option and I decided on a "near whim of the moment" that I was going to do it. However, the idea of just doing this with no prior knowledge was too much, and so I spent a few hours researching the topic. Having this kind of knowledge ahead of time gave me the prep I needed in order to feel much more confident that I wouldn't be overwhelmed by this experience. It especially helped getting through the first set of rapids and understanding that A: I wasn't going to die, and B: It felt really fun. I surprised myself by how much I enjoyed it, and I look forward to doing it again in the future.

When trying new things, I generally want to have some sort of background knowledge. I don't have to know every little thing and sometimes things are best learned as you go. In general though, I can't just imagine jumping into some activity like white water rafting totally cold. Part of it is also that I want to feel competent and don't want to make a fool of myself.

I see issues that crop up in myself and other Si-users where the past is used to explain the present, without really seeing what the present is offering. A similar situation occurs to one that happened in the past, and that can trigger the manifestation of those data points and branching paths to overlay onto the current situation. This can be used for both positive and negative situations. The issue of doing this that isn't immediately obvious is that the situation isn't being looked at for its own unique set of reality points. This can occur a lot in interpersonal relationships and cause issues.

I have a lot more I could say, but my mind is branching out all over the place now. I'll stop here for now and see what others have to say.

Could you give some examples of how this could cause issues in relationships? Say between a SiNe and a NiSe user.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Well said. As a fellow SiNe user what you say matches up well with my experience as well. I'd be interested in seeing a similar article for NiSe. I'm guessing that they wouldn't get so overwhelmed by data in the present but wouldn't be as good as drawing information from the past. So they might not learn as well from past mistakes.

Glad to know it's not just me.

Once again, this matches up very well with my experience.

I always associated a need for repetition with Si more than Ne. In particular the Ne dominants seem to want the constant variety in change but maybe they too want repetition on certain things.

I sometimes find certain movies hard to follow the first time around. Sometimes I end up not quite getting it because I ended up focusing on the wrong things because I just couldn't focus on it all the first time so my brain had to pick and choose.

In particular, the bolded statement above is true of me.

Ah, maybe I need to reword slightly... but I do think some repetition is good for Ne since it helps ground Si. I find that when I am stressed out... it's really quite soothing to engage in something repetitious. I watch a movie I know by heart or I start working on a sewing project. Etc.

When trying new things, I generally want to have some sort of background knowledge. I don't have to know every little thing and sometimes things are best learned as you go. In general though, I can't just imagine jumping into some activity like white water rafting totally cold. Part of it is also that I want to feel competent and don't want to make a fool of myself.

Lol, this is so me too. I hate the idea of being incompetent and looking silly when it is not my intent to be that way. There was this family on my raft who had just randomly decided to do it and they were this gorgeous hearty group of SP's. I was completely envious of their excitement at being in front and having no clue what to expect other than "AMGS WE'RE GONNA BE WET."

Could you give some examples of how this could cause issues in relationships? Say between a SiNe and a NiSe user.

Hmm. I will think on this. I dated an INxJ for 5 years so I am sure if I think long and hard enough I will remember some good examples of our disagreements. Some of the best of our relationship was the fact that my mind covered the past with skip-leap-jump-alivewerealive to the possible future, and his mind covered the present towards a trending future. Which meant that some of the worst of the relationship was based on me basing facts on the past and him the present. It's actually really interesting to study; the interplay between the two. There is a beauty and a blindness to the dance.

Anyway, I will come up with a concrete response to this last soon... Thanks SuchIrony

 

[EJCC]

Some key things to start off with:

1- The present is an overwhelming set of information that often doesn't make much sense until it's in the past.
2- The past then is more "alive" to us than the present is because it is more understandable and finite.
3- SiNe is like an interlocking web of data with data points (Si) and endless branching off connection points (Ne) going all over the place.

Problem Areas:

1- We can be "blind" to the present moment and implications of actions that lay therein simply because there is too much going on.
2- We can overlay and interweave past experiences with current experiences as a means of understanding the current experience, but ultimately miss out on the current experience.
3- We can make assumptions based on false information that can cause a bad iteration throughout the system.
4- There can be a tendency to descend into "what happened is what should then happen in the future."

I pretty much relate to all of this. The second bolded is especially true of me; when I was just starting to learn about the MBTI, I never related to the common generalization that Sensors are more in tune with the here and now, because I am absolutely shitty about the here and now. I'm always off somewhere else, mentally, either reminiscing on the past, planning the future, or just daydreaming. Maybe it's because I tend to score low on S, but I'm likely more prone towards Sensotard moments than some Ns on the forum.

The first bolded intrigues me, because of how little I relate to it. Do you always see the vastness of information in the world as "overwhelming"? I wonder if it's an Ne thing, more than an Si thing -- being overwhelmed by the sheer amount of data and all the possibilities connecting it. I tend to approach it like a sponge: soak up everything I can, and leave the rest.

I find that the present moment represents way too much information that I don't know what to do with most of the time. I get by as best I can by guessing as to what is important/pertinent to the moment based on past experiences of priority lists. Completely new experiences where I have nothing in the past to draw from, are terrifying at times and can be paralyzing. There is simply too much going on via the senses, what is being said, and what is being experienced. It's difficult to figure out what is needed in this moment. It's only when one has the distance and detachment that time can give, that things start assembling into a reasonable order.

This sounds a lot like me -- I'm also wary of new situations because of the lack of precedent -- but your phrasing was more uncertain, which is likely the difference between aux and tert Si. I tend to be very assertive in my usage of Si, in new experiences -- and my Ne comes in handy by helping me use Si with a bit more resourcefulness and creativity.

The gift then is that when one can study what happened, that patterns and ideas can emerge and ultimately an understanding of what occured. There is a sense that the past is finite and from that an infinite realm of possibilities and connections can be created.

I think this is where a need for repetition can come into play. I enjoy reading books several times and seeing movies several times in order to extract all of the information I need/want out of it. The first pass is the most confusing because there is a lot going on and I am not always confident I know what elements to be focusing in on. A later read has relieved me of the burden of constantly wondering what is going to happen, and instead allows me to enjoy what is going on. Then I can think about how the elements work together, what patterns I see, hidden connections, etc. I often get frustrated/annoyed when major events occur that shut down the current range of possibilities. I am not immediately appreciative of what new possibilities have now sprung forth from these actions until some time has elapsed. For example, in the "Game of Thrones" series, major characters die a lot. The first big death completely ticked me off because I hadn't seen it coming, and I didn't see why that person had to die, and I was completely emo. I first reread the prior 100 pages or so out of a desire to see what I had missed the first time, and it wasn't until a good book or two later that I truly understood why that character died and what new possibilities had followed their death. That information was just not understandable for me to get in the moment. Now that I have learned about this, I am more aware of when major events happen, and I can encourage myself to try and see the situation for what it is. But this is not my natural thought pattern and is not easily available and it isn't necessarily trusted... yet.

Yes to all of this! I am exactly the same way.

My favorite films, TV shows, and pieces of music, are the ones that are full of small, interesting details, that took a lot of craftsmanship and thought and additional effort, but were intended to be rewards to the viewers. "The Matrix" and "Scott Pilgrim vs. The World" are good examples.

I think repetition can help be the bridge from Si to Se in a strange sort of way. This past summer I went white water rafting for the first time and it was a new spur of the moment idea. I was traveling to a region where it was an option and I decided on a "near whim of the moment" that I was going to do it. However, the idea of just doing this with no prior knowledge was too much, and so I spent a few hours researching the topic. Having this kind of knowledge ahead of time gave me the prep I needed in order to feel much more confident that I wouldn't be overwhelmed by this experience. It especially helped getting through the first set of rapids and understanding that A: I wasn't going to die, and B: It felt really fun. I surprised myself by how much I enjoyed it, and I look forward to doing it again in the future.

I tend to overestimate the amount that Si can bridge that gap. I almost trick myself into thinking that book learning is a replacement for experience -- and it never is. You can get 80% from it -- enough to make you more confident when you approach the real thing, like what you were describing -- but you can't ever get 100%.
*sigh* And it's a shame, too.

I'd be interested in seeing a similar article for NiSe.

I'd be interested in that too! It would be such a wall of text.

I sometimes find certain movies hard to follow the first time around. Sometimes I end up not quite getting it because I ended up focusing on the wrong things because I just couldn't focus on it all the first time so my brain had to pick and choose.

I don't do this with movies but I have done it with class discussions/reflections ever since high school. It's especially bad now that I'm in college, because my university is pretty NJ-dominated -- both faculty and student body -- so when I reflect on the "wrong" thing, in the reading, no one in the classroom is very tolerant. And I often get the "wrong" thing out of the readings, for the direct path of conversation that the professors seem to hope for.

When trying new things, I generally want to have some sort of background knowledge. I don't have to know every little thing and sometimes things are best learned as you go. In general though, I can't just imagine jumping into some activity like white water rafting totally cold. Part of it is also that I want to feel competent and don't want to make a fool of myself.

!

 

[cascadeco]

Lol, this is so me too. I hate the idea of being incompetent and looking silly when it is not my intent to be that way. There was this family on my raft who had just randomly decided to do it and they were this gorgeous hearty group of SP's. I was completely envious of their excitement at being in front and having no clue what to expect other than "AMGS WE'RE GONNA BE WET."

Hopefully not to totally derail, but I love doing new things/seeing new things BECAUSE it's new and I want to experience the experience of it - see what it's all about. And often-times I don't want to know what to expect down to the details... I want to be surprised or want to learn as I go, rather than have pre-set expectations.

When I went rafting for the first time, it honestly didn't even occur to me to research it. I was just like... 'yeah, sure, I'll try it out'.

I love trying to be purely in the moment / going for that raw experience.

Re. [MENTION=10653]SuchIrony[/MENTION]'s question/comment on NiSe perhaps not learning from the past as easily, I'm not sure I'd phrase it in that way, as for me I don't know that that quite captures the core element... it's more shifting in perspectives, and therefore the past may take on a different light if we reach a new conclusion in the future. So we might start viewing the past differently, all of a sudden. Connecting all of it into a different framework, in a sense. I think I've seen reference on the forums from other people re. this being a frustrating aspect they have with some NJ's... just the re-writing history aspect. The past is more morphy, in other words, I think for Ni. Which, I could see as being annoying/difficult for others to understand, esp. if a rewriting might impact them. And it's something that I can find annoying and sometimes difficult to handle in fellow nfj's.

Other component of not learning from past mistakes is that, where per Saturned's OP, the past is constantly compared to and referenced to cross-check with something occurring in the present for SiNe, with myself I don't always do that... as each new 'present' case might be a slight nuance on the past, where the past might tie directly into it or apply near-100%, thus I can do the direct comparison, or more likely than not, the past situation doesn't quite line up with the present, thus I can't do a direct compare, thus the present is a new Version/variation of something from the past, thus needing a slightly different approach. To the outsider I could see how the 'slightly different' may not be transparent enough and it simply seems the Ni person isn't learning from the past.

 

[Anew Leaf]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]:

I pretty much relate to all of this. The second bolded is especially true of me; when I was just starting to learn about the MBTI, I never related to the common generalization that Sensors are more in tune with the here and now, because I am absolutely shitty about the here and now. I'm always off somewhere else, mentally, either reminiscing on the past, planning the future, or just daydreaming. Maybe it's because I tend to score low on S, but I'm likely more prone towards Sensotard moments than some Ns on the forum.

Yay! Thread is working as intended.

The first bolded intrigues me, because of how little I relate to it. Do you always see the vastness of information in the world as "overwhelming"? I wonder if it's an Ne thing, more than an Si thing -- being overwhelmed by the sheer amount of data and all the possibilities connecting it. I tend to approach it like a sponge: soak up everything I can, and leave the rest.

It probably is a bit more to do with being high Ne than Si. This is not to say that I am perpetually adrift in a sea of being overwhelmed... it's just more that I find it easier to figure out things when I have a bit of distance/time on a situation. It's like in the immediate here and now, if it's a stressful situation especially, I tend to try and get by as best as I can with what past knowledge that can be helpful, and then a very hampered stab at choosing what seems most important. Once I am able to reflect on the situation, it's much easier to identify the key information.

In decision making I want to know ALL THE FACTS and POSSIBILITIES and then Decide. A girl can dream right? My problem is probably more of a judgement issue in that I need to develop and listen and trust my judgement making skills instead of dissolving into perpetual "Hmm, but what if this happens..." etc.

I tend to overestimate the amount that Si can bridge that gap. I almost trick myself into thinking that book learning is a replacement for experience -- and it never is. You can get 80% from it -- enough to make you more confident when you approach the real thing, like what you were describing -- but you can't ever get 100%.
*sigh* And it's a shame, too.

It really is a shame. My rafting urge came because I decided that I needed to start actually living life instead of just reading about so much of it. Si, for me, is all about comfort... and it's tough breaking out of the comfort zone and giving the present moment a run for its money. The saddest thing is how much I enjoy living in the moment when I actually do it. So why don't I do it more often?

Thank you for your input, mi sombra gemela.

 

[Anew Leaf]

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION]: Uh, I think I am the last person that could ever possibly complain about a thread derail. Also, I love having threads organicly evolve into something else... so this is awesome!

Hopefully not to totally derail, but I love doing new things/seeing new things BECAUSE it's new and I want to experience the experience of it - see what it's all about. And often-times I don't want to know what to expect down to the details... I want to be surprised or want to learn as I go, rather than have pre-set expectations.

Interesting. Ne is, apparently if I am understanding this correctly, more about thinking/and mentally experiencing new things because they are new... and then just explore in my head. *sigh* This explains a lot. I need a small injection of Se... *purchases pocket ESTP*

When I went rafting for the first time, it honestly didn't even occur to me to research it. I was just like... 'yeah, sure, I'll try it out'.

Egads! HaAHAHAHA It didn't occur to me to NOT research it. (I blame my INTP 5w6 father though... he researches EVERYTHING............ TO. DEATH.) I was like, if we are going to do this thang... we are going to do it RIGHT. Sigh, I am such a dork.

There was something recently I got made fun of by my friends because I googled something ridiculously basic to life but I was still curious about it. I can't remember what it was... I'll have to wait for them to mock me for it anew.

What I am getting from this idea here is that perhaps what I need is (hey look a theme in my life) more self confidence that I can handle situations in the moment better than I fear I can't. (which, is actually true... I am good in a crisis. Reality doesn't phase me... it's my own head spinning endless prophecies of doom that get me. >.>) And now I am derailing your derail...

Re. @SuchIrony's question/comment on NiSe perhaps not learning from the past as easily, I'm not sure I'd phrase it in that way, as for me I don't know that that quite captures the core element... it's more shifting in perspectives, and therefore the past may take on a different light if we reach a new conclusion. So we might start viewing the past differently, all of a sudden. Connecting all of it into a different framework, in a sense. I think I've seen reference on the forums from other people re. this being a frustrating aspect they have with some NJ's... just the re-writing history aspect. The past is more morphy, in other words, I think for Ni. Which, I could see as being annoying/difficult for others to understand, esp. if a rewriting might impact them.

I like this... it's very helpful to hear it put this way. It's actually something I like about NJs because I feel they are far more flexible about changing their minds on something after they have made a decision. Whereas I think I am extremely flexible on something UNTIL I make a decision. And then afterwards I get extremely rigid and unseeing about it.

Other component of not learning from past mistakes is that, where per Saturned's OP, the past is constantly compared to and referenced to cross-check with something occurring in the present, with myself I don't always do that... as each new 'present' case might be a slight nuance on the past, where the past might tie directly into it or apply near-100%, thus I can do the direct comparison, or more likely than not, the past situation doesn't quite line up with the present, thus I can't do a direct compare, thus the present is a new Version/variation of something from the past, thus needing a slightly different approach. To the outsider I could see how the 'slightly different' may not be transparent enough and it simply seems the Ni person isn't learning from the past.

Oh, that's interesting as well. Especially the bold. This gave me something very intriguing to consider, thank you dear .