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Gender Roles and MBTI

Apostolos

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I believe that my grandmothers are ESTJ and ESFP. I find both annoying but I prefer the second one. The ESTJ(?) one is smarter and honest, the ESFP(?) one is caring and fun. My grandfather who is married to the ESTJ grandmother is, I think, INTP. I get along with him very well.
 

SilkRoad

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For the record - and I'm not positive about any of these - my dad is IxFJ, and my mom and brother are both IxTJ. I can't figure out the N/S splits.

I'm 99% sure we're all IxxJs.
 
S

Society

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the general stereotypes are that females are feelers and that males are thinkers, because statistically it would be "usually close enough", both because for the majority (but in no way overwhelming majority) it would be true, and because - as a result - the gender expectations have followed that majority trends, so when it isn't true, people will still be enacting a sense of identity defined by those expectations, making the assessment close enough for casual acquaintance.
the latter element is more true for women, as the social pressure for men to "appear T" has being somewhat mitigated by the positive media treatment & romanticization of "the sensitive guy" leading to a higher acceptance of F-males, while the T-female identity hasn't been given such an opportunity, often still viewed as "ice queens" or even "bitches" by both males and other females.

the female-J/male-P element of the stereotype gets a little bit more muddy, but are note worthy for being appearance focused (while in RL most males & females are Js):
since most people (male or female) are sensors, the value of Se for the masculine role and Si for the feminine role has being repeated throughout history. in hunter gatherer society, where it would have being a necessity for women to be pregnant for a majority of their fertile lives to diffuse the high mortality rate, the roles which demanded the fastest reaction times were left for men, whether hunting or defense, while the roles that demanded a rich basis of experience, such as knowing when various fruits are ripe or what is poisonous or medicinal, were largely female. as people learned from their tribes directly, the work models where the roles children were exposed to.
the industrial revolution intensified this further: when men went into the workforce where they had clear hierarchies of external discipline, a women's workplace was more often than not the household itself, where while officially subservient, for the majority of the time she had to fulfill the role of being her own boss, encouraging a J behavior. this generated a larger miscommunication throughout generations, where children grow up seen their mothers at their workplace, while only seen their fathers while they were resting from their workplace, thus obtaining role models and expectations accordingly.
some believe that today we are merely struggling in shaking off the anthropological and recent cultural norms, but i'd call BS, in fact or our modern enlightened society is repeating the pattern more than before as increasingly more people grow up in single-mother households generated by increasing divorce rates (that have become practical due to women's capacity to be financially independent), growing up with a female role model that needs to be the complete boss for herself and her environment in order to maintain the minimal functionality, while the fathers they are exposed too in those situations, if they aren't absent, will often be on the lower-end of the custody through weekends and vacations, meaning that again we are raising (or have being raised as) a generation exposed to males while they are resting and females while they are maintaining.

these are the main factors, that combined with the fact most people are sensors, generate the STP male stereotype & SFJ female stereotype.

FYI - my mother is an ENFP & my father an INTJ, so there ya go :p
 

Coriolis

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I very much doubt that every xSFJ female relative typed themselves. Remarkable numbers of people aren't interested in MBTI.
Yes. My mother knew nothing about it, and I only came to understand it after her death. I have vacillated between ESFP and ESFJ for her. She was very outgoing, and fun-loving, which makes me think the former. As I learned about functions, though, I came to realize that her strongest one was Fe. As an obvious extravert, this leaves ENFJ and ESFJ, with S much more suited to how she looked at the world.

this generated a larger miscommunication throughout generations, where children grow up seen their mothers at their workplace, while only seen their fathers while they were resting from their workplace, thus obtaining role models and expectations accordingly.
some believe that today we are merely struggling in shaking off the anthropological and recent cultural norms, but i'd call BS, in fact or our modern enlightened society is repeating the pattern more than before as increasingly more people grow up in single-mother households generated by increasing divorce rates (that have become practical due to women's capacity to be financially independent), growing up with a female role model that needs to be the complete boss for herself and her environment in order to maintain the minimal functionality, while the fathers they are exposed too in those situations, if they aren't absent, will often be on the lower-end of the custody through weekends and vacations, meaning that again we are raising (or have being raised as) a generation exposed to males while they are resting and females while they are maintaining.
This is an interesting observation. It is certainly true for much of the 20th century, but there are limitations on what it describes. In pre-industrial and agricultural societies, both women and men were essentially their own boss, on the farm or in a shop, each doing their own specific (often gender-based) tasks. Children worked with the corresponding parent to help out and to learn skills. In the modern age, households with two working parents abound in addition to single-mother households. Here, both mom and dad interact with kids outside of work, and the amount of truly recreational time depends on how household duties are divided. Many adults today, however, grew up in just the kind of circumstance you describe.
 

SilkRoad

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Yes. My mother knew nothing about it, and I only came to understand it after her death. I have vacillated between ESFP and ESFJ for her. She was very outgoing, and fun-loving, which makes me think the former. As I learned about functions, though, I came to realize that her strongest one was Fe. As an obvious extravert, this leaves ENFJ and ESFJ, with S much more suited to how she looked at the world.

My point though was really that not every woman of a certain age is an Fe-dom or ESFJ. :shrug: It would probably have been more accurate of me to say that not all "xSFJ" women have typed themselves. My impression is that a great many people are assuming that's what their moms are, based on their own expectations, or on their moms acting a certain way due to social expectations (most people in this forum are American and that probably has something to do with it too). [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] also made a good point - just because your grandmother seemed traditional doesn't necessarily mean she was an SJ; most grandmothers are going to seem at least somewhat traditional.

But I'm starting to think that I'm in a minority as far as thinking that most mothers aren't ESFJs, so I should probably bow out of this thread.
 

Coriolis

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But I'm starting to think that I'm in a minority as far as thinking that most mothers aren't ESFJs, so I should probably bow out of this thread.
According to the MBTI site capt.org, 40-57% of women are SF. Assuming all types are equally likely to have children, that means there is around a 50% chance that any given person's mother is an SF at least. There are equal amounts of E and I, and slightly more J than P. ISFJ is listed as the most common of the 4 SF types for women. E vs. I is usually easy to tell.

Bottom line: some people really do have SFJ mothers, and some of us know our mothers well enough to understand where their real person ends and their public persona starts. It is all about what one's basis for making that claim is.
 

Such Irony

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As far as gender stereotypes, I think there are two sets:
  • reserved, strong/silent male + bubbly socialite female
  • devoted and dutifully nurturing female + aggressive dominant male

The bolded represents my parents. Father, ISTX; mother, XSFJ.
 

21%

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According to the MBTI site capt.org, 40-57% of women are SF. Assuming all types are equally likely to have children, that means there is around a 50% chance that any given person's mother is an SF at least. There are equal amounts of E and I, and slightly more J than P. ISFJ is listed as the most common of the 4 SF types for women. E vs. I is usually easy to tell.

Bottom line: some people really do have SFJ mothers, and some of us know our mothers well enough to understand where their real person ends and their public persona starts. It is all about what one's basis for making that claim is.
This is interesting statistics. I still believe [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION] has a point. A lot of 'mom' behaviors can seem SFJ-ish, especially when you are on the receiving end. Motherly love is naturally going to entail a lot of protectiveness, caring, structure and discipline (which good parenting should have anyway) and possibly a lot of irrationality.

I'm not in anyway suggesting the stats are wrong or trying to argue that most moms are not SFs or anything like that. I just think that there is a high possibility that a lot of moms (especially STJs) are mistyped because the children only get to see them from the 'mom' side.
 

Redbone

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It gets really exciting when someone bravely steps forward and says their mom/granny isn't an SJ.

I had an ENTJ grandmother (the other one was ESTJ). The ENTJ one was married to an ISFP. The ESTJ married an INFP....:D

And yes, my mother was an ESFJ....;)

What little my kids know of MBTI, they'd never type me as an SFJ. More like ENTJ to them.

It's hard being a T-woman. I want a man who will appreciate my T-ness!!!!! :cry:
 

Salomé

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This is interesting statistics. I still believe [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION] has a point. A lot of 'mom' behaviors can seem SFJ-ish, especially when you are on the receiving end. Motherly love is naturally going to entail a lot of protectiveness, caring, structure and discipline (which good parenting should have anyway) and possibly a lot of irrationality.
Or, you know, it could be that "mom behaviours" are SJF-ish because moms are more likely to be SFJ than anything else...? Sometimes, there are good reasons for stereotypes.

If most moms were INTP, we'd have a very different notion of "typical" mothering behaviour.

Now, as to whether the overwhelming SFJ nature of women (and STJ nature of men) is nature or nurture? That's another debate. But this phenomenon has little to do with kids mistyping their mothers/grandmothers.
(Incidentally, my maternal grandmother is probably ESTP, certainly NOT any kind of SFJ).
 

Apostolos

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It wasn't easy to figure out but I had typed my mother as an ESTP. She took the test and I was right.
I believe that my father is IStJ. Their relationship is not perfect but good in general. I believe that both of them don't match their expected gender stereotypes. However, they don't have any significant problem, I think.
 

SilkRoad

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I do have to ask...if it's considered normal for a very large majority of mothers/grandmothers to be xSFJ (which many if not most typologists here at least seem to think it is), how come many/most fathers and grandfathers aren't typed as xSTJ? I mean sure, there are some, but it's nothing like the female xSFJ dominance.

I'd say the same rules should apply...


EDIT: From having another trawl through the main "what type are your family/friends" thread, I'd say that not only are a lot of fathers/grandfathers not typed as xSTJ, but the majority aren't. I did see quite a few ESTJ dads, but there were tons of ENTJs and ENTPs. Also quite a few ISFJs, ESFPs and ESTPs. Not nearly as many ISTJs as you'd think.

If most moms/grandmothers really are xSFJ, it certainly stands to reason that the vast majority of fathers are xSTJ. I see no reason to think that more males are Ns, for instance.

So why the discrepancy?
 

karmacoma

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Sorry, my English aren't that good. I was thinking about gender roles and MBTI. I am new here and I am not very familiar with Myers-Briggs typology yet. I think a xSFJ type is close to the female gender sterotype (supporting, loving, understanding, loyal, kind, sympathetic etc. mother/wife) while an ExTx type is more close to male gender stereotype (extroverted, logical etc.).. I might be wrong though.. What's your opinion?

You are right on target, IMO. Male feelers and female thinkers have to work a lot on appearing more acceptable to their respective societies. I do think testosterone and estrogen play a big role in this, so male feelers and female thinkers can "cover" better on some things because of hormones, but still - it's harder for them to live up to those role expectations. Good insight.
 

SilkRoad

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Theoretical distributions say there's lots of SJs - find ten people, odds are 2 are SFJ and another 2 are STJ. Another supposed distribution puts the odds of the average woman being SFJ at about 3 in 10.


Moi? ISFJ mommy, ESFJ Sis--jackpot.

I'm not disputing there are a lot of SJs - there definitely are.

What I am disputing, in part, is why so many people's parent pairings look something like: INTP dad/ISFJ mom. ENTJ dad/ISFJ mom. ENTP dad/ESFJ mom. ISFJ dad/ESFJ mom. ISTP dad/ESFJ mom.

In case I haven't already made it abundantly clear (which I no doubt have, so apologies) - I think a lot of people are using their not-so-good relationships with their moms, and the fact that women have been forced into stereotypical boxes for centuries, to conclude that their mom has to be an xSFJ. Apparently dad is free to be anything he likes, including Feelers (which shouldn't be so common for men, by this reasoning - but seems quite common), Intuitives, etc.

Seriously, go look at the thread about types of family members. Massive variety in fathers' types. Much, much smaller variety in mothers' types, and millions of xSFJs. I don't think any typological theory bears that out.
 

Kalach

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By the bye, the MBTI manual has a brief case study/story on using the MBTI in other cultures. When the MBTI more or less as is was tested on some particular African culture group, ISFJ males kept scoring as ISTJ though they were known, somehow, to be F. The suggestion was (something like--I forget--) the particular cultural expression used by males in that grouping meant the genuinely F males identified with what is used to express T in whatever cultural zone the relevant version of the MBTI was originally put together.

Meaning, I guess, (and very loosely guess at that) SFJs are the moms in the west and the warriors in Africa.

Which is to say, yeah, I see what you're saying about people identifying women in certain roles as SFJ rather than checking in with the women themselves and finding out who they are. People generally suck at typing. And are sexist.
 

Poki

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I think that Females usually have a stonger F side and Males a stronger T side within the same type. Granted an ISTP Female isnt gonna be very F, but it seems like they will be more F then there male counterpart. Though a INFP Male will have a WHOLE LOT more F then an ISTP female.
 

Salomé

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So why the discrepancy?

Well, for one thing, you are comparing a sample of the population at large vs the denizens of this forum (the latter is affected by self-selection bias, if that were not clear enough). So it does not "stand to reason" at all. It would be an unsurprising finding, but not a necessary one.

Since we know that INXXs are significantly overrepresented here, it's also not surprising that their parents/siblings should depart from the norm. Are there really that many more N fathers reported? I don't know, you'd have to do some proper research to prove your point. ("Tons" isn't statistically meaningful.)
 
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Patches

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I am pretty sure mine was an ISTJ too.

ISTJ grannies WOOOH! :rock:

:<


I find that interesting, because I assumed people 'envision' ISTJs as predominantly male. People online mistake my gender for male pretty often just based on how I talk and (at least here) my MBTI type. I had considered ISTJ a more 'masculine' type.
 
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